Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[mvp 78]

Seriously man, stop it. Your hate for Papelbon is getting ridiculous.

 

Seriously man, just quit it with your Uehara hate. Accept that he's an outstanding reliever. Your hatred towards Uehara and Taz is suspicious.

[Bellhorn04]

I wouldn't want the Papelbon that pitch for the Phillies/Natinals in the last 2 year. Ewwww. He isn't even the best closer in the game since he chase after money to Philadelphia.

 

The bullpen is not an issue unless Farrell f***ed s*** up like yesterday again. Layne pitching the 8th? WTF is wrong with the manager? That was Ross job, maybe to finish the game with 2 inning. Ross has not pitch in 8 days. Then he burnt through Tazawa and Kimbrel because Layne could not get it done. Now today he has neither his set up and closer. Way to throw off the entire system because of s***** game managing.

 

It's a very good question why he hasn't used Ross since May 20. That's the kind of question reporters should be asking.

[iortiz]

Seriously man, just quit it with your Uehara hate. Accept that he's an outstanding reliever. Your hatred towards Uehara and Taz is suspicious.

LOL! I'm not managing a hatred campaign as you do with Pap.

 

I don't hate Koji and Taz by any means. I'm not callig him Kojiblows as you guys do with Pap.

 

I'm only pointing out the fact that he is old and is not reliable anymore, reason why we need an extra young/solid set up reliever, who can help both Taz and Koji.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

 

Also, over his prime, Papelbon was arguably the best closer in baseball.

 

No, that would be Mariano Rivera.

[User Name]

No, that would be Mariano Rivera.

 

What part of "arguably" don't you understand?

[User Name]

Seriously man, just quit it with your Uehara hate. Accept that he's an outstanding reliever. Your hatred towards Uehara and Taz is suspicious.

 

Suspicious indeed. Slant-eye phobia?

[User Name]

The reason I broke it down year by year is because Koji's 13 historic seasons skews the overall stats. I'm not saying throw that year out, but for every other year (3+) Paps has been just as good. And we WERE talking about all-time, which is why I mentioned PApelbons early years.

 

How would I talk about all time if Uehara made the jump to the US just a couple years ago? I also clearly stated the comparison is right now. You're just moving the goalposts to defend a lost argument. Stop.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

What part of "arguably" don't you understand?

 

And that's my side of the argument.

 

Seems you are the one that doesn't understand "arguably".

[User Name]

And that's my side of the argument.

 

Seems you are the one that doesn't understand "arguably".

 

You countered a relative statement with an absolute statement (which you did not back up in any way). That's not how arguments work. Are you sure you're not a troll? Because you have a lot of troll-ish qualities.

[jacksonianmarch]

This is a stupid argument. Papelbon has been the most reliable. He's following Mariano. He might not be the best closer year to year, but he's damn reliable. Koji was a journeyman middle reliever until he found it in 2013. He had a year for the ages and followed it up with 2 good, but injury shortened seasons. Now, he looks done as a dominant reliever with even less velocity and a loss of feel for the splitter. It's kinda like the conversation I had with a few fans a decade or so ago about Gagne vs Mo. Gagne was flashy and had a ridiculous 80+ save streak. But he was out of the league 5 yrs later and Mo had another 10 years in him. The sox have to be happy they got what they did for Koji for a limited amount of time. Papelbon went elsewhere and it left a lot of people butt hurt. But he has been as reliable as they come for a decade plus now

[User Name]

Reliable, not elite. And it's not such a "stupid" argument when the stats bear out Koji being the more dominant (but not more durable) reliever. Stupid is refuting the entire statistical element of the discussion on a "because I say so" basis. And for the record, Gagne was the best reliever in baseball for the short time of his peak, that's indisputable.

[User Name]

And that's my side of the argument.

 

Seems you are the one that doesn't understand "arguably".

 

By the way:

 

Papelbon 2006-2009: 1.74 ERA, 271 ERA+, 2.41 FIP, 0.917 WHIP, 10.6 K/9, 5.20 K/BB, 151 savees.

 

Rivera 2006-2009: 2.03 ERA, 223 ERA+, 2.60 FIP, 0.914 WHIP, 8,8 K/9, 6.78 K/BB, 147 saves.

 

If you understand the meaning of the word "arguable", then I fail to see how you can flat out state that Rivera (or anyone else) was conclusively superior to Papelbon during his four-year peak.

[harmony]

Could you two take your spat outside?

You're spoiling the party.

[User Name]

Damn it, the spat is the party harmony. Don't you try to force your username on us.

[iortiz]

This is a stupid argument. Papelbon has been the most reliable. He's following Mariano. He might not be the best closer year to year, but he's damn reliable. Koji was a journeyman middle reliever until he found it in 2013. He had a year for the ages and followed it up with 2 good, but injury shortened seasons. Now, he looks done as a dominant reliever with even less velocity and a loss of feel for the splitter. It's kinda like the conversation I had with a few fans a decade or so ago about Gagne vs Mo. Gagne was flashy and had a ridiculous 80+ save streak. But he was out of the league 5 yrs later and Mo had another 10 years in him. The sox have to be happy they got what they did for Koji for a limited amount of time. Papelbon went elsewhere and it left a lot of people butt hurt. But he has been as reliable as they come for a decade plus now

 

This is why I called that he was/is driving in Mo's highway, a TM BTW LOL!

 

Most people in this board concur in what you are saying in recent posts. U? just started another storm s*** as usual regarding Papelbon --seems like the dead horse thread is not enough--, just because I concurred with you that we need another SP and a solid/young reliever because Kelly and Buch suck and Koji is old and no longer reliable --- which is a fact.

[iortiz]

Reliable, not elite. And it's not such a "stupid" argument when the stats bear out Koji being the more dominant (but not more durable) reliever. Stupid is refuting the entire statistical element of the discussion on a "because I say so" basis. And for the record, Gagne was the best reliever in baseball for the short time of his peak, that's indisputable.

 

It is stupid since Koji is not a closer anymore and Pap is still a very good one... but seriously stop it already. if you want to keep beating this dead horse, be my guest, but do it in the the official dead horse topics thread.

[moonslav59]

Koji was a journeyman middle reliever until he found it in 2013.

 

If playing for two teams from 2009 to 2012 makes him a "journeyman", then maybe I'm misunderstanding the term. The term also has the connotation of mediocrity or worse. Uehara's history before coming to the Sox was far from mediocre.

 

From 2010 to 2012, Uehara pitched in 145 innings and had the following numbers:

 

11.36 K/9 (9th out of 93 RP'ers with 140 IP+)

1.06 BB/9 (Best in MLB by 0.30!!!)

2.53 xFIP (4th in MLB)

55 ERA- (6th in MLB)

0.77 WHIP (Best in MLB)

10.76 K/BB (2nd place was Betancourt at 7.82)

 

Fact is, Koji was fantastic for 3 seasons before Boston.

 

Since 2010, there are 155 relief pitchers with over 200 IP. Here's how some of the top RP'ers rate:

 

Uehara Kimbrel Papelbon Chapman

WHIP 0.79 0.92 1.06 1.01

ERA- 52 45 68 56

k/BB 8.9 4.3 4.5 3.6

WAR 9.3 13.6 9.0 11.9

xFIP 2.60 1.98 3.27 2.17

 

Trying to downplay Koji's accomplishments is bizarre.

.

[jacksonianmarch]

Uehara was on 3 teams in 5 years and his lack of durability basically had him paid akin to a middle of the road reliever.

[User Name]

Uehara was on 3 teams in 5 years and his lack of durability basically had him paid akin to a middle of the road reliever.

 

This is a fair point. What Uehara has always lacked is durability, not the ability to dominate.

[Jasonbay44]

The Rangers traded Chris Davis for Koji, then let Koji walk after 1 and 1/2 years of being a setup guy, and not even the closer.

 

Never forget.

[moonslav59]

The Rangers traded Chris Davis for Koji, then let Koji walk after 1 and 1/2 years of being a setup guy, and not even the closer.

 

Never forget.

 

I think his age frightened many GMs and lowered his trade and market value.

It certainly was not his numbers.

[moonslav59]

Uehara was on 3 teams in 5 years and his lack of durability basically had him paid akin to a middle of the road reliever.

 

Koji has been pretty much a one IP reliever since 2010. His IP numbers have been as follows:

44

65

36

74

64

40

19 so far this year (on pace for about 60)

 

Here are the IP totals since 2010 by some notable closers/top set-up men:

411 Papelbon

391 KRod

368 Kimbrel

359 Jenson

343 Uehara

327 Chapman

303 Soriano

[TedWilliams101]

Koji was a journeyman middle reliever until he found it in 2013.

 

If playing for two teams from 2009 to 2012 makes him a "journeyman", then maybe I'm misunderstanding the term. The term also has the connotation of mediocrity or worse. Uehara's history before coming to the Sox was far from mediocre.

 

From 2010 to 2012, Uehara pitched in 145 innings and had the following numbers:

 

11.36 K/9 (9th out of 93 RP'ers with 140 IP+)

1.06 BB/9 (Best in MLB by 0.30!!!)

2.53 xFIP (4th in MLB)

55 ERA- (6th in MLB)

0.77 WHIP (Best in MLB)

10.76 K/BB (2nd place was Betancourt at 7.82)

 

Fact is, Koji was fantastic for 3 seasons before Boston.

 

Since 2010, there are 155 relief pitchers with over 200 IP. Here's how some of the top RP'ers rate:

 

Uehara Kimbrel Papelbon Chapman

WHIP 0.79 0.92 1.06 1.01

ERA- 52 45 68 56

k/BB 8.9 4.3 4.5 3.6

WAR 9.3 13.6 9.0 11.9

xFIP 2.60 1.98 3.27 2.17

 

Trying to downplay Koji's accomplishments is bizarre.

.

 

No one is down playing Koji's accomplishments. He's been one of the best closers the last 4 years and had one of the all time best seasons in '13. We are just pointing out that Paps was and still is an elite closer and that it very much is a valid argument to put him in the conversation of not just the redsoxs best closer ever, but one of the leagues best ever. Of course Mo is N.1, but there's a strong argument for Paps at #2, especially consideringt his dominance in the playoffs

[moonslav59]

No one is down playing Koji's accomplishments. He's been one of the best closers the last 4 years and had one of the all time best seasons in '13. We are just pointing out that Paps was and still is an elite closer and that it very much is a valid argument to put him in the conversation of not just the redsoxs best closer ever, but one of the leagues best ever. Of course Mo is N.1, but there's a strong argument for Paps at #2, especially consideringt his dominance in the playoffs

 

I'd say calling him a "journeyman" before coming to Boston was downplaying his greatness before 2013.

Attacking his "durability" could also be viewed as unfair "downplaying", although nobody should be calling him an iron man.

Also, Koji has some pretty awesome playoffs numbers as well. He has a 0.875 playoff WHIP and has let up just 3 ERs in 16 IP since his first game in the post season. Papelbon has not been in the playoffs since 2009. He was lights out over his first 25 IP with the Sox. True greatness! No doubt. If it wasn't for 2009, he might be viewed as the best ever in the post season.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

By the way:

 

Papelbon 2006-2009: 1.74 ERA, 271 ERA+, 2.41 FIP, 0.917 WHIP, 10.6 K/9, 5.20 K/BB, 151 savees.

 

Rivera 2006-2009: 2.03 ERA, 223 ERA+, 2.60 FIP, 0.914 WHIP, 8,8 K/9, 6.78 K/BB, 147 saves.

 

If you understand the meaning of the word "arguable", then I fail to see how you can flat out state that Rivera (or anyone else) was conclusively superior to Papelbon during his four-year peak.

 

Didn't realize that it was limited to a convenient 4 yr window.

[Bellhorn04]

Didn't realize that it was limited to a convenient 4 yr window.

 

You should read other people's posts a little more carefully then. He said 'over Papelbon's prime'.

[StephenCurry30]

He said its arguable Papelbon was ARGUABLY the best closer in baseball during his prime, that 4 year stretch WAS HIS PRIME. No one has argued that Rivera isn't the best closer of all time, yet you keep trying to insinuate someone has. I don't get why you are arguing if something is arguable, the fact you are arguing it, has in fact proved his point that he was arguably the best closer in baseball during his prime (THAT 4 YEAR STRETCH).

 

I am going to say its arguable you suck at trolling.

[iortiz]

I'd say calling him a "journeyman" before coming to Boston was downplaying his greatness before 2013.

Attacking his "durability" could also be viewed as unfair "downplaying", although nobody should be calling him an iron man.

Also, Koji has some pretty awesome playoffs numbers as well. He has a 0.875 playoff WHIP and has let up just 3 ERs in 16 IP since his first game in the post season. Papelbon has not been in the playoffs since 2009. He was lights out over his first 25 IP with the Sox. True greatness! No doubt. If it wasn't for 2009, he might be viewed as the best ever in the post season.

 

How many full season does Koji have under his belt as closer? 2? The comparison is silly.

 

When he arrived to Boston, he was not even a closer. In fact in 2013 he was not supposed to be our closer. I remember that they even were in talks to get Papelbon back among others since Bailey and Hanrahan sucked badly.

 

In the meantime they gave a chance to Taz but did not wok out. They also gave a chance to Aceves and did not work either, and then they tried with Koji and the rest is history. Koji was way outstanding and no one in earth saw that coming in 2013. Since then he has not been the same and was expected, he is getting old. This year is older and is not sharp as he used to be.

 

Said that I love what Koji gave us but trying to compare him with one of the best closers of all times is simply unfair and ridiculous just because he had one outstanding year as closer.

Edited May 29, 2016 by iortiz

[User Name]

He said its arguable Papelbon was ARGUABLY the best closer in baseball during his prime, that 4 year stretch WAS HIS PRIME. No one has argued that Rivera isn't the best closer of all time, yet you keep trying to insinuate someone has. I don't get why you are arguing if something is arguable, the fact you are arguing it, has in fact proved his point that he was arguably the best closer in baseball during his prime (THAT 4 YEAR STRETCH).

 

I am going to say its arguable you suck at trolling.

 

You are unarguably very right my friend.

[User Name]

iortiz will never let facts get in the way of a good argument.