The David Ortiz Appreciation Thread

[Youk Of The Nation]

So I guess Ortiz is Exhibit #1 in the argument for the DH.

 

What? If there was no DH, Ortiz would probably have been a defensively sub-par first baseman for a few years until nagging injuries forced him into a backup role and eventually retirement, likely around 2009-2010, and he probably would never have signed with the Red Sox in the first place. In return, we would have been treated to 10 seasons of watching Tim Wakefield striking out on pitches 20mph faster than he has ever thrown before. Why would you want to deny us that?

Edited May 15, 2016 by Youk Of The Nation

[mvp 78]

I'm soprry, Ortiz is not just 1 player out of 9, or 25. Some players carry the team in body or spirit, and Ortiz does both. He's easily made this team and this league several times more money than he was ever paid. He's a lot more than just a guy who wore the laundry, and his value is far greater than nearly everyone else who's work it in his tenure here.

 

I'd say the only three guys who are worthy to be compared directly to Ortiz's contribution to this franchise over the last 13 years are Manny, Schill, and Tek. No one else comes close.

 

Schill?

 

For that argument: Pedey >>> Schill

[mvp 78]

What? If there was no DH, Ortiz would probably have been a defensively sub-par first baseman for a few years until nagging injuries forced him into a backup role and eventually retirement, likely around 2009-2010, and he probably would never have been traded to the Red Sox in the first place. In return, we would have been treated to 10 seasons of watching Tim Wakefield striking out on pitches 20mph faster than he has ever thrown before. Why would you want to deny us that?

 

He wasn't traded to the Red Sox.

[Youk Of The Nation]

My mistake, I meant signed with.

[a700hitter]

Schill?

 

For that argument: Pedey >>> Schill

Schill won 2 Pedey won 2. The first one was the hardest and Schill played a key role and made a dramatic impact on that first run.

[sk7326]

So I guess Ortiz is Exhibit #1 in the argument for the DH.

 

Watching pitchers hit and bunt is enough evidence. (heck the proliferation of watching bunts period)

[sk7326]

Ortiz is only the 3rd player in history with 500 HR's and 600 doubles. If that isn't Hall of Fame worthy I don't know what is.

 

Bar has to be high as a pure DH. Ortiz is not the best qualified pure DH will a Hall case (Edgar Martinez is at least as good). I'd argue for them both, but I can't argue for Ortiz first.

[a700hitter]

Bar has to be high as a pure DH. Ortiz is not the best qualified pure DH will a Hall case (Edgar Martinez is at least as good). I'd argue for them both, but I can't argue for Ortiz first.

Iwould argue that Ortiz has accomplished significantly more as a DH than Edgar, but even if they are equal statistically as hitters, Papi is hugely significant in the history of one of the games premier franchises. Edgar does not have the same significance to Seattle. Imo, it is not even close.

[devildavid]

Bar has to be high as a pure DH. Ortiz is not the best qualified pure DH will a Hall case (Edgar Martinez is at least as good). I'd argue for them both, but I can't argue for Ortiz first.

 

The bar should not be any higher for a pure DH. It is a legitimate position in the AL. Martinez should be in the Hall. Ortiz is worthy as well. DH is not a novelty and should not be treated as a lesser position. I think the problem has been that it is rare to have a full time DH so the position is treated dismissively. And it is especially rare to have a full time DH with the high skill level and perfomance level that both Martinez and Ortiz have shown. Time to stop DH discrimination!

[Youk Of The Nation]

Bar has to be high as a pure DH. Ortiz is not the best qualified pure DH will a Hall case (Edgar Martinez is at least as good). I'd argue for them both, but I can't argue for Ortiz first.

 

How is Ortiz not better than Martinez? Leaving aside Ted's point about the relative impact on their franchises, he leads Martinez in nearly every major statistical category. Hits, runs, RBI, doubles, triples!, home runs, slugging, and total bases. His batting average and OBP are lower, but he played two more seasons than Martinez, and his OPS is only a couple points behind. He will most likely overtake Martinez in walks by the end of this season. Ortiz finished in the Top 5 of MVP voting five times, including four consecutively, Martinez finished in the Top 5 once. Ortiz also led the league in RBI twice to Martinez's once, and Ortiz did it at a time when he had much more competition for the honor. About the only statistic that Martinez has a decisive advantage in is stolen bases. Ortiz was a very important and very productive part of three World Series Championships, and he is respected and feared by every pitcher and team in baseball at a level that most guys can only dream of.

 

Martinez should be in the Hall of Fame, I would never deny that, but I really cannot see any way in which you can make an argument that he is better than Ortiz. I can barely see an argument for saying that he's equal.

[Maxbialystock]

Ortiz is unreal.

[SinceYaz]

Schill won 2 Pedey won 2. The first one was the hardest and Schill played a key role and made a dramatic impact on that first run.

 

I think Pedey's been with us "so long" now that it is easy to forget he wasn't with us in '04. Mark Belhorn is often overlooked, aside from his namesake here.

[SinceYaz]

Iwould argue that Ortiz has accomplished significantly more as a DH than Edgar, but even if they are equal statistically as hitters, Papi is hugely significant in the history of one of the games premier franchises. Edgar does not have the same significance to Seattle. Imo, it is not even close.

 

Absolutely true. Edgar was living in Junior's shadow ... even when Junior left, it was the sucking sound of his evacuating that people felt more than Edgar's presence. Not taking anything from Edgar's talents but your point of the other layers Papi brings are well established.

 

As far as the contentions as to his over all value to the team, DH and/or any other issue, name me the last player on the Sox who was not just CENTRAL to 3 WS crowns but just on the team! Not even Theo was here for 3 ... () We could look back at the rosters of the 1912, 1915 and 1916 ....

[mvp 78]

Schill won 2 Pedey won 2. The first one was the hardest and Schill played a key role and made a dramatic impact on that first run.

 

Schill's impact is supremely overstated. He was also a nobody by 2007.

[Dojji]

Schill?

 

For that argument: Pedey >>> Schill

 

I don't want to poke any holes in Pedroia, but I'm sorry, no, I disagree. Schilling's postseason heroics carried us through 2 World Series rings. Pedroia's been on hand for 2 as well, and he has featured prominently in them, but I've never felt like Pedroia put us over the top in any of them. Great player to have, emotional leader of the team, all that stuff is true, but the magnitude of what Shilling accomplished and the fact that he was able to carry his weight again in 2007 at the end of his career, that stuff speaks volumes to me.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Dojji

[Dojji]

Schill's impact is supremely overstated.

 

Pretty much impossible to overstate what Curt Schilling accomplished in the 2004 postseason, especially Game 6 of the ALCS. by all rights he should have come out of game 1 and straight onto the disabled list. I don't know of a single other pitcher in recent history who would have even been out there throwing at a time like that. That experimental surgery could have ended his career right then and there and he knew it, went for it, and made a name for himself in Boston that should never be allowed to fade.

 

He was also a nobody by 2007.

 

He won all but one his games in the 2007 postseason. He wasn't a rotation leader anymore, wasn't dominant, but he still pitched quite well for a guy whose shoulder was about to fall apart if he breathed on it wrong. The last pitch he ever threw was in a World Series win, that still counts for a lot.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Dojji

[S5Dewey]

The bar should not be any higher for a pure DH. It is a legitimate position in the AL. Martinez should be in the Hall. Ortiz is worthy as well. DH is not a novelty and should not be treated as a lesser position. I think the problem has been that it is rare to have a full time DH so the position is treated dismissively. And it is especially rare to have a full time DH with the high skill level and perfomance level that both Martinez and Ortiz have shown. Time to stop DH discrimination!

This^^. MLB has declared the DH to be a legitimate position in the American League. There's a DH in everyone's lineup every day, hitting for the pitcher, and it's sanctioned by Major Leage Baseball.

 

Not allowing a DH into the HOF because "he's not a part of the defense" makes as much sense to me as denying an AL pitcher entry because "he's not a part of the offense".

[Bellhorn04]

Schill's impact is supremely overstated. He was also a nobody by 2007.

 

Not a fair statement. He was 3-1 in the 2007 postseason with a 3.00 ERA and 2 High Quality starts.

[SinceYaz]

This^^. MLB has declared the DH to be a legitimate position in the American League. There's a DH in everyone's lineup every day, hitting for the pitcher, and it's sanctioned by Major Leage Baseball.

 

Not allowing a DH into the HOF because "he's not a part of the defense" makes as much sense to me as denying an AL pitcher entry because "he's not a part of the offense".

 

S5, do you remember when the conversation used to be about whether a relief pitchers were worthy of HOF consideration? The basic negative was that they were only in the game for an inning or so, maybe less. It was a rabid discussion for a while. The sentiment is similar with this never ending squabble. If folks don't think a DH is worthy, it had best be because of his lack of performance.

[mvp 78]

Not a fair statement. He was 3-1 in the 2007 postseason with a 3.00 ERA and 2 High Quality starts.

 

2 QS, 1 ok start, 1 horrible start.

[mvp 78]

Schilling in game 6 is the most overrated performance of all time imo.

[devildavid]

Pretty much impossible to overstate what Curt Schilling accomplished in the 2004 postseason, especially Game 6 of the ALCS. by all rights he should have come out of game 1 and straight onto the disabled list. I don't know of a single other pitcher in recent history who would have even been out there throwing at a time like that. That experimental surgery could have ended his career right then and there and he knew it, went for it, and made a name for himself in Boston that should never be allowed to fade.

 

 

 

He won all but one his games in the 2007 postseason. He wasn't a rotation leader anymore, wasn't dominant, but he still pitched quite well for a guy whose shoulder was about to fall apart if he breathed on it wrong. The last pitch he ever threw was in a World Series win, that still counts for a lot.

 

Right on. Schilling came in and changed the mindset in 2004. And he led by example on the field. He was the stopper in the rotation that season. Why not us? Big Schill is the man as far as 2004 is concerned.

[SoxnCycles]

Schilling in game 6 is the most overrated performance of all time imo.

 

Well, now we know who edited out Schillings game from ESPNs 4 Days in October.

[S5Dewey]

S5, do you remember when the conversation used to be about whether a relief pitchers were worthy of HOF consideration? The basic negative was that they were only in the game for an inning or so, maybe less. It was a rabid discussion for a while. The sentiment is similar with this never ending squabble. If folks don't think a DH is worthy, it had best be because of his lack of performance.

 

You bring up yet another good point. For example, the only debate about Mo is whether he'll be 1st ballot (he obviously should be) HOF'er and yet he's a man without a MLB sanctioned position who only pitches in certain situations and never grabs a bat.

Papi OTOH, is a regular player with a sanctioned position and his biggest "fault is that he doesn't play defense. Mo is "in" and Papi is debatable. The more I think about this debate the less sense it makes.

[sk7326]

How is Ortiz not better than Martinez? Leaving aside Ted's point about the relative impact on their franchises, he leads Martinez in nearly every major statistical category. Hits, runs, RBI, doubles, triples!, home runs, slugging, and total bases. His batting average and OBP are lower, but he played two more seasons than Martinez, and his OPS is only a couple points behind. He will most likely overtake Martinez in walks by the end of this season. Ortiz finished in the Top 5 of MVP voting five times, including four consecutively, Martinez finished in the Top 5 once. Ortiz also led the league in RBI twice to Martinez's once, and Ortiz did it at a time when he had much more competition for the honor. About the only statistic that Martinez has a decisive advantage in is stolen bases. Ortiz was a very important and very productive part of three World Series Championships, and he is respected and feared by every pitcher and team in baseball at a level that most guys can only dream of.

 

Martinez should be in the Hall of Fame, I would never deny that, but I really cannot see any way in which you can make an argument that he is better than Ortiz. I can barely see an argument for saying that he's equal.

 

Martinez almost 20 fWAR, 14 bWAR more in 1100 fewer PAs. Between 1990 and 2003 his worst OBP year was .366 (Papi sprinkled in some less than great years - even if you don't include his largely wasted first 6 years in MIN). For a solid 5-7 years (basically took the mantle from FRank Thomas) as the AL's best hitter.

 

Ortiz' longevity is striking and the homeruns are an edge. But Martinez was a better hitter - and a better fielder the rare times it mattered. The MVP voting difference is easily explained by 1) market size and 2) especially in Martinez' time, kneeling at the altar of RBIs. Ortiz has many more RBIs, but he also played in better lineups for the most part - and RBIs are really just a function of chances.

 

I do agree with those who say DH is a legitimate position. Absolutely. And Martinez and Ortiz are HoF'ers to me because of that - in that order.

[a700hitter]

Schilling in game 6 is the most overrated performance of all time imo.

I think that you might be letting your personal dislike for him color your opinion. It was an amazing performance in every respect. I have seen a lot of dramatic a performances in sports over 50 years, and I can't remember a single time when an athlete underwent an experimental surgical procedure to allow him to perform and then performing dominantly on that sports biggest stage. I don't think any other athlete would consent to that as it could endanger his career. It pretty much cost him the next season.

[sk7326]

The bar should not be any higher for a pure DH. It is a legitimate position in the AL. Martinez should be in the Hall. Ortiz is worthy as well. DH is not a novelty and should not be treated as a lesser position. I think the problem has been that it is rare to have a full time DH so the position is treated dismissively. And it is especially rare to have a full time DH with the high skill level and perfomance level that both Martinez and Ortiz have shown. Time to stop DH discrimination!

 

Hell yeah it should. Aside from that hitting is a DH's single job - that there are different offensive norms for different positions is common knowledge. I agree there is positional discrimination by the Hall ... but DHs should be expected to deliver more than someone who can field, because there is only one place where he makes an impact. I am not treating it as a novelty - I am treating it like a specialist who should do a specialists job at a special quality.

[a700hitter]

Martinez almost 20 fWAR, 14 bWAR more in 1100 fewer PAs. Between 1990 and 2003 his worst OBP year was .366 (Papi sprinkled in some less than great years - even if you don't include his largely wasted first 6 years in MIN). For a solid 5-7 years (basically took the mantle from FRank Thomas) as the AL's best hitter.

 

Ortiz' longevity is striking and the homeruns are an edge. But Martinez was a better hitter - and a better fielder the rare times it mattered. The MVP voting difference is easily explained by 1) market size and 2) especially in Martinez' time, kneeling at the altar of RBIs. Ortiz has many more RBIs, but he also played in better lineups for the most part - and RBIs are really just a function of chances.

 

I do agree with those who say DH is a legitimate position. Absolutely. And Martinez and Ortiz are HoF'ers to me because of that - in that order.

Ortiz played in better lineups? Edgar at one point was in the same lineup with Griffey, ARod and Buhner among others. That was some lineup.

[a700hitter]

Schill's impact is supremely overstated. He was also a nobody by 2007.

Except that he was still money in the post season and the World Series.

[a700hitter]

Pretty much impossible to overstate what Curt Schilling accomplished in the 2004 postseason, especially Game 6 of the ALCS. by all rights he should have come out of game 1 and straight onto the disabled list. I don't know of a single other pitcher in recent history who would have even been out there throwing at a time like that. That experimental surgery could have ended his career right then and there and he knew it, went for it, and made a name for himself in Boston that should never be allowed to fade.

 

 

 

He won all but one his games in the 2007 postseason. He wasn't a rotation leader anymore, wasn't dominant, but he still pitched quite well for a guy whose shoulder was about to fall apart if he breathed on it wrong. The last pitch he ever threw was in a World Series win, that still counts for a lot.

Most pitchers would have shut it down in May of 2004 as that is when he injured the sheath for his tendon. From May on, he was pitching by taking a shot of Lanacaine before the game to numb his foot and as the season went on he was getting additional shots during the game. His sheathing really blew apart in game 1 against the Angels. There was no way that he should have pitched after that. Pitching through the 2004 season cost him 2015 and it arguably could have accelerated the deterioration of his shoulder that ended his career. His contributions cannot be understated. He was the final big piece who was acquired to put us over the top -- and he delivered despite that his body betrayed him. I remember that commercial where he was hitchhiking and he says that he is headed to Boston to help end an 86 year old curse. He certainly did.