The David Ortiz Retirement Discussion Thread

[sk7326]

The Red Sox All-Time list by bWAR ... obviously all-in-one stats are not infallible, but curious to see where it ends up. I combine batters and pitchers

 

1. Ted Williams 126.1

2. Carl Yastrzemski 96.1

3. Roger Clemens 81.3

4. Wade Boggs 71.6

5. Cy Young 66.2

6. Dwight Evans 66.2

7. Tris Speaker 55.4

8. Pedro Martinez 53.8

9. Bobby Doerr 51.2

10. David Ortiz 49.0

11. Jim Rice 47.4

12. Dustin Pedroia 46.3

13. Lefty Grove 44.7

14. Nomar Garciaparra 41.1

15. Carlton Fisk 39.5

16. Rico Petrocelli 39.1

17. Harry Hooper 38.4

18. Luis Tiant 36.4

19. Jimmie Foxx 34.6

20. Reggie Smith 34.2

21. Manny Ramirez 33.2

22. Tim Wakefield 32.6

23. John Valentin 32.1

24. Dom Dimaggio 32.0

25. Fred Lynn 31.9

26. Kevin Youkilis 31.4

27. Jon Lester 30.7

28. Larry Gardner 30.5

29. Johnny Pesky 30.5

30. Smoky Joe Wood 29.9

 

Even if you take some away from Williams (and it is all because of his bat, he was below replacement level on defense) due to 1/3 of his career predating integration he laps the field.

[Spudboy]

I understand and do not disagree.........but take Ortiz off the 04, 07 and 13 teams......do they win the WS? Do they make the playoffs? Tough call.......

 

In 46' Ted had probably his 3rd best season ever and won the MVP award........ He then batted .200 with one RBI in the WS against what was thought of as an inferior St.Louis team.......

 

These conversations are tough.....it's SOOOOO difficult to compare players from VERY different era's. If we were to take, say an average present day player.....like JBJ and piut him on the 46 Sox.......he'd probably be one of the best players because of his advanced training, nutrition, playing, scouting, coaching etc.....players now have WAY more at their fingertips then players of yesteryear. Take Ted Williams or Dommagio and pit him against one of our pitchers today...and you'll see a dip.

 

With that said......and I hate the Yankees as much as anybody else..... Mantle could play in ANY era and be amazing. To me.......he was the best of his time and if he stayed away from the bottle, he'd be the best ever.

 

This thread has fostered some really thoughtful comments, yours included. I was going to simply post that I believe that the best QB ever was Marino regardless of what rings Brady has accumulated. That's just my opinion. And I doubt anyone here would tell you that I am stupid. f***ed in the head, maybe. But not stupid.

 

What prompted me to post is your comment about Mantle. Like yourself, I have no love for the Yankees or even anything related to NYC. Mantle was a 5 tool player before the term was being used. He was f***ing incredible. I only got to see him after his knees were completely shot. Which sucks because he had close to world class speed, I believe, when he came up. Of course it is pretty sad that he destroyed his life with booze.

 

For those who have never seen Mantle play or for whatever reason are not familiar with his game ( when healthy ), he had all the tools. Think Griffey Junior before his knees went.

 

Anyway, good posts Kingface.

[Kingface]

This thread has fostered some really thoughtful comments, yours included. I was going to simply post that I believe that the best QB ever was Marino regardless of what rings Brady has accumulated. That's just my opinion. And I doubt anyone here would tell you that I am stupid. f***ed in the head, maybe. But not stupid.

What prompted me to post is your comment about Mantle. Like yourself, I have no love for the Yankees or even anything related to NYC. Mantle was a 5 tool player before the term was being used. He was f***ing incredible. I only got to see him after his knees were completely shot. Which sucks because he had close to world class speed, I believe, when he came up. Of course it is pretty sad that he destroyed his life with booze.

 

For those who have never seen Mantle play or for whatever reason are not familiar with his game ( when healthy ), he had all the tools. Think Griffey Junior before his knees went.

 

Anyway, good posts Kingface.

 

HAHA!!!! That actually made me almost spit my gum out!! We are spending time talking sports in front of some little computer device......pretty sure we're all f***ed in the head!!! HA!! I actually LOVED watching Marino play......the guy was amazing. I'm a huge Pats fanboy......but I respect the greats from other teams a ton........even Peyton (eek......I think I need a shower after saying that)

 

Mantle was just stupid good. When Mantle came up to bat, no matter what team you rooted for, you stopped what you were doing and you watched. I seriously think he was the best there ever was........

[cp176]

Pesky f'd up Ted's chance. Don't hold the damn ball.

 

If Dom D. had been in center on that day, Pesky wouldn't have had to even think about that classic double clutch.

[cp176]

HAHA!!!! That actually made me almost spit my gum out!! We are spending time talking sports in front of some little computer device......pretty sure we're all f***ed in the head!!! HA!! I actually LOVED watching Marino play......the guy was amazing. I'm a huge Pats fanboy......but I respect the greats from other teams a ton........even Peyton (eek......I think I need a shower after saying that)

 

Mantle was just stupid good. When Mantle came up to bat, no matter what team you rooted for, you stopped what you were doing and you watched. I seriously think he was the best there ever was........

 

I'm a Williams guy all the way but what Ortiz has brought to the Red Sox in addition to his great play, Ted really wasn't interested in bringing until much later on. Mantle was for sure that good but for watching Mays play was other worldly as a kid.

 

Williams would get my vote as the greatest hitter in the history of the game and #1 Red Sox.

Ortiz has move ahead of Yaz for me I say with a heavy heart. In my summer of '67 eyes though, no one had a one year performance like Yaz.

[Spudboy]

I'm a Williams guy all the way but what Ortiz has brought to the Red Sox in addition to his great play, Ted really wasn't interested in bringing until much later on. Mantle was for sure that good but for watching Mays play was other worldly as a kid.

 

Williams would get my vote as the greatest hitter in the history of the game and #1 Red Sox.

Ortiz has move ahead of Yaz for me I say with a heavy heart. In my summer of '67 eyes though, no one had a one year performance like Yaz.

 

 

This is about how I feel.

 

No Sox player has come close to replicating Yaz' 1967.

 

That was magical.

[a700hitter]

This is about how I feel.

 

No Sox player has come close to replicating Yaz' 1967.

 

That was magical.

Yaz was great on D too, which is absent from Ortiz game. As an offensive force, Ortiz is second only to Teddy Ballgame -- and only by a hair.

[Dojji]

No, if you ignore the defensive side of the game, no one is close to Teddy who isn't named Mantle. You have to include Teddy's putrid defense and ignore the fact that ortiz doesn't play any at all in order to put Ortiz in the same universe as Teddy. Even then, if the DH rule had been in place in the 60's and early 60's Williams' numbers would have wound up looking even better -- unless Dr. Strangeglove got the DH job over him.

[cp176]

This is about how I feel.

 

No Sox player has come close to replicating Yaz' 1967.

 

That was magical.

 

I worked half days that summer and tried to get to the golf course some afternoons. I used to carry a little transistor in golf bag so I could listen to the day games. An unbelieable summer.

[Spudboy]

I worked half days that summer and tried to get to the golf course some afternoons. I used to carry a little transistor in golf bag so I could listen to the day games. An unbelieable summer.

 

I was 11 and newly transplanted to the Boston area in 1967. I had never seen a baseball game and had never touched a baseball.

 

What an introduction to baseball!!!!

[SinceYaz]

Ortiz>Ted....... I know it's a horrible thing to say in terms of baseball history and nostalgia..... But I agree with Slash. Ted was quite possible the best hitter to ever live. Ortiz did things in the biggest stage of all time....in front of the biggest audience of all time (Live, On TV AND on Social Media) that may never be matched. I judge players based on not only regular season......but AB's int he big moment. Sure I know it was different back then in terms of making playoffs and such....I get that. I think of it like Marino and Brady. Marino did things in terms of throwing a football that pretty much NOBODY could match. Sure his stats are being broken but he played in VERY different defensive times. Brady has the stats.....but he won 4 SB rings....... Pretty sure nobody will ever say Marino was a better QB than Brady (Unless they are a hater....and they're just stupid).

 

The problem baseball is that it has so much history, mystique and nostalgia behind it.......WAY more so than the NFL will ever have. We love Ted.....he was a great hitter, a legend and an American hero......it's hard to argue against that. Take all of those things away though........would we be still be having this conversation?

 

Excellent parallel ...

 

I don't know what more to say about Papi. Lighting struck. Several times. Pedro. Manny. Then Papi. I know there were other key pieces, but Papi did not make it happen all by himself ... this isn't tennis or golf. All the pieces had to come together. (No duh)

 

That doesn't in any way take away from what he has done. It only embellishes it. We now know what it feels like to be on the other side of "Yaz pops up," "Bucky F'n Dent," and so on.

 

Going out on his terms is poetically perfect. The couple seasons that were effected by hand injuries had some malcontents calling for his removal. Poor saps ... they neither enjoyed Papi nor his immense impact on the team every year. Isn't it something that we actually had "fans" that were constantly down playing his marvelous-ness?

 

Like Ted, there won't be another Papi.

 

I will close by saying that there is at least one more thing about the teams with Papi. My dad took us, as many as 8 of us, family and my friends, to Fenway, from '64 to '70. We loved every one of the trips. But there was nothing like sharing 2004 with Dad from a distance and 2007 with Dad as we watched the Sox together. Dad was born in 1917 ... those were joyous times and we had a blast sharing them! Dad didn't make it to the third act, 2013. But we had the other two, plus all the plenty of memories from '62 on.

 

Talking Ted with Dad was wistful. Living Papi with Dad was beyond words... How could I be more thankful than either one? Papi was more fun ... a whole lot more fun.

Edited May 2, 2016 by SinceYaz

[SinceYaz]

The Red Sox All-Time list by bWAR ... obviously all-in-one stats are not infallible, but curious to see where it ends up. I combine batters and pitchers

 

1. Ted Williams 126.1

2. Carl Yastrzemski 96.1

3. Roger Clemens 81.3

4. Wade Boggs 71.6

5. Cy Young 66.2

6. Dwight Evans 66.2

7. Tris Speaker 55.4

8. Pedro Martinez 53.8

9. Bobby Doerr 51.2

10. David Ortiz 49.0

11. Jim Rice 47.4

12. Dustin Pedroia 46.3

13. Lefty Grove 44.7

14. Nomar Garciaparra 41.1

15. Carlton Fisk 39.5

16. Rico Petrocelli 39.1

17. Harry Hooper 38.4

18. Luis Tiant 36.4

19. Jimmie Foxx 34.6

20. Reggie Smith 34.2

21. Manny Ramirez 33.2

22. Tim Wakefield 32.6

23. John Valentin 32.1

24. Dom Dimaggio 32.0

25. Fred Lynn 31.9

26. Kevin Youkilis 31.4

27. Jon Lester 30.7

28. Larry Gardner 30.5

29. Johnny Pesky 30.5

30. Smoky Joe Wood 29.9

 

Even if you take some away from Williams (and it is all because of his bat, he was below replacement level on defense) due to 1/3 of his career predating integration he laps the field.

 

Ahhhh

 

Here I find that some stats are obviously flawed. Or at least don't tell the whole story.

 

I saw several of these folks play and can tell you there is no way Reggie Smith, much as I liked him, was better than Manny, just the first of several I would disagree with. Do the ratings include all the years they were a Sox only?

[User Name]

Manny's career WAR is 66.3. That only includes his time with the Sox.

[SinceYaz]

This is about how I feel.

 

No Sox player has come close to replicating Yaz' 1967.

 

That was magical.

 

I concur completely. Yaz and the triple crown, the Impossible Dream ... I had a morning paper route, so I was always available to follow the games. My best friend had an afternoon route, so he sometimes had a conflict.

 

Sometimes we had the radio going while we played homerun derby with whiffle balls.

 

I am getting mixed memories .... Yaz in 1971, "The Summer of '42, (Hellooooo Jennifer O'Neill)"

[SinceYaz]

Manny's career WAR is 66.3. That only includes his time with the Sox.

 

Thank you for the clarification.

[SinceYaz]

If Dom D. had been in center on that day, Pesky wouldn't have had to even think about that classic double clutch.

 

 

JF screwed the line up again, eh? Oh, wait .....

[cp176]

JF screwed the line up again, eh? Oh, wait .....

 

injury - he would have been out there if he could have been

[SinceYaz]

injury - he would have been out there if he could have been

 

Heh, thanks ... I don't recall the games, before my time. Baseball, Bosox and I met in 1962. First grade, first full year in country.

[cp176]

Heh, thanks ... I don't recall the games, before my time. Baseball, Bosox and I met in 1962. First grade, first full year in country.

 

Before my time as well. Read some great books. I did see Ted play in 1960 though.