Referendum on John Farrell

[SoxHop]

Swihart will have multiple suitors. How he fits in to our organization going forward means nothing. What the other teams will give up for him is the only question, they are bidding against themselves, not the Sox.

 

Comparing ability between Vasquez and Swihart means nothing. One will be better than the other, and it makes no difference which one is better. One being better doesn't make the second one worse.

 

Taking the gamble at Swihart getting better at the catcher position is the way to go, the payoff could be huge. He has more chance to peak, than decline.

[a700hitter]

Swihart will have multiple suitors. How he fits in to our organization going forward means nothing. What the other teams will give up for him is the only question, they are bidding against themselves, not the Sox.

 

Comparing ability between Vasquez and Swihart means nothing. One will be better than the other, and it makes no difference which one is better. One being better doesn't make the second one worse.

 

Taking the gamble at Swihart getting better at the catcher position is the way to go, the payoff could be huge. He has more chance to peak, than decline.

I hope that you are right.

[SoxHop]

I hope that you are right.

 

I'd gamble on him being a catcher. He's not worth that much elsewhere. It's worth the gamble.

[Maxbialystock]

The Swihart discussion is a good reminder that he caught a lot of games with Boston last year, but this year was sent to Pawtucket after playing in just 6 games. He is reportedly working in the outfield right now, and last year he was our primary catcher. Wow. Last year our primary thirdbaseman was Sandoval, but this year it's Shaw, who is hitting up a storm (and was trending that way late last year). Last year our leftfielder was Hanley Ramirez with an overall WAR of -1.8 for the season, and this year it's Holt, mostly. Ramirez, now at 1B, is comfortable, but his OPS is lower so far than Napoli's was last year, and the Sox dumped Napoli around August 1.

 

Nevertheless, what you have to like about this year's team is that right now seven guys--Ortiz, Shaw, Pedroia, Betts, Bogaerts, Holt, and Ramirez--have 10 or more rbi's, the most being 16 rbi's. That is a tough lineup even though Betts, Bogaerts, and Ramirez are not yet hitting at their potential. This has all happened under Farrell, which to me does not mean he gets the credit, only that he is not the unmitigated evil some would paint him to be. And the pitching just might be coming around, possibly because Swihart is gone, who knows?

[Dojji]

Coincidence is not causality. We know Vazquez came up AND the pitching improved. We do not know that the pitching improved because Vazquez came up. But having a great defensive catcher instead or a faw one should make a significant difference to outcomes.

[User Name]

The Swihart discussion is a good reminder that he caught a lot of games with Boston last year, but this year was sent to Pawtucket after playing in just 6 games. He is reportedly working in the outfield right now, and last year he was our primary catcher. Wow. Last year our primary thirdbaseman was Sandoval, but this year it's Shaw, who is hitting up a storm (and was trending that way late last year). Last year our leftfielder was Hanley Ramirez with an overall WAR of -1.8 for the season, and this year it's Holt, mostly. Ramirez, now at 1B, is comfortable, but his OPS is lower so far than Napoli's was last year, and the Sox dumped Napoli around August 1.

 

Nevertheless, what you have to like about this year's team is that right now seven guys--Ortiz, Shaw, Pedroia, Betts, Bogaerts, Holt, and Ramirez--have 10 or more rbi's, the most being 16 rbi's. That is a tough lineup even though Betts, Bogaerts, and Ramirez are not yet hitting at their potential. This has all happened under Farrell, which to me does not mean he gets the credit, only that he is not the unmitigated evil some would paint him to be. And the pitching just might be coming around, possibly because Swihart is gone, who knows?

 

Did Farrell like, donate to a fund you used to buy your house? Also, the hyperbole?

 

No one here has classified Farrell as unmitigated evil or whatever other ridiculous thing you're saying. People here have said (and rightly so) that he makes head-scratching pitching change and pinch-hit decisions, that is it, full stop.

[Kingface]

Did Farrell like, donate to a fund you used to buy your house? Also, the hyperbole?

 

No one here has classified Farrell as unmitigated evil or whatever other ridiculous thing you're saying. People here have said (and rightly so) that he makes head-scratching pitching change and pinch-hit decisions, that is it, full stop.

 

I think if you search around here, other forums and in the media.....SOME people pretty much talk about Farrell like he is the worst manager ever. Max was simply saying that in an exaggerated manner to drive a point home. I don't think his intention is to put a blanket statement out there that everyone hates him and thinks he's evil......

[User Name]

Well since he did personally call me a whiner yesterday unprovoked, I'll take exception to the statement. And let's be honest: Farrell is just not a very good in-game tactician. He's great at the other aspects of being a manager (leading the players, handling the media, corporate branding) but asides from that magical '13 postseason, his game management has been lacking. It is what it is.

 

Suggesting that perhaps Lovullo is a better manager than Farrell because of his stint last year and his standing within the industry is not an affront/demonization of Farrell. It's just a matter of competence.

[Kingface]

Well since he did personally call me a whiner yesterday unprovoked, I'll take exception to the statement. And let's be honest: Farrell is just not a very good in-game tactician. He's great at the other aspects of being a manager (leading the players, handling the media, corporate branding) but asides from that magical '13 postseason, his game management has been lacking. It is what it is.

 

Suggesting that perhaps Lovullo is a better manager than Farrell because of his stint last year and his standing within the industry is not an affront/demonization of Farrell. It's just a matter of competence.

 

Agree 100%. I've actually been on Farrells side a bit more this season than normal. While yes....he makes some very odd in-game decisions.......he didn't blow 3 saves, he didn't give up a grand slam to lose a game, he didn't slump in the leadoff spot for the first 10 games, he didn't pitch horribly for a few starts when you're supposed to be the Ace. Players get the credit when the team does well......managers often get the blame when the team does bad. I don't think that's fair. Would I have preferred to have Lovullo as the manager to start the season?? Yes........do I think that Farrell has done anything to cost him his job this year?? No...... If there was a chance to make a managerial change it was during the offseason. That could have been a PR disaster with Farrell and his cancer scare.....they stayed the course and so far things really have not been too bad. Having the 7th best record in all of MLB really is a pretty good thing.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Kingface

[SoxnCycles]

Did Farrell like, donate to a fund you used to buy your house? Also, the hyperbole?

 

No one here has classified Farrell as unmitigated evil or whatever other ridiculous thing you're saying. People here have said (and rightly so) that he makes head-scratching pitching change and pinch-hit decisions, that is it, full stop.

 

There are also some who think he should be canned, so it's a little more than "head scratching".

Farrell totally hosed the bullpen last week, but that doesn't mean he should be fired a month into the season.

I'm fine giving him until July. Lovullo isn't going anywhere.

[User Name]

Agree 100%. I've actually been on Farrells side a bit more this season than normal. While yes....he makes some very odd in-game decisions.......he didn't blow 3 saves, he didn't give up a grand slam to lose a game, he didn't slump in the leadoff spot for the first 10 games, he didn't pitch horribly for a few starts when you're supposed to be the Ace. Players get the credit when the team does well......managers often get the blame when the team does bad. I don't think that's fair. Would I have preferred to have Lovullo as the manager to start the season?? Yes........do I think that Farrell has done anything to cost him his job this year?? No...... If there was a chance to make a managerial change it was during the offseason. That could have been a PR disaster with Farrell and his cancer scare.....they stayed the course and so far things really have not been too bad. Having the 7th best record in all of MLB really is a pretty good thing.

 

That doesn't mean we can't criticize Farrell in a forum created for baseball discussion, especially if the criticism is respectful.

 

I disagree because I think the Toronto game where Koji had dead arm falls squarely on his shoulders. Ditto for two games where he let Young take extremely important AB's against RHP late in the game with viable replacements in the bench. I think his lineup management and PH decisions have been largely better, but resting both Papi and Hanley a couple days ago literally created a bald spot for me after all the scratching.

 

However, as I have stated before. the other aspects of managing are also extremely important, and Farrell manages them well, but is it not fair to wonder out loud whether we have the best option managing right now?

[Maxbialystock]

Did Farrell like, donate to a fund you used to buy your house? Also, the hyperbole?

 

No one here has classified Farrell as unmitigated evil or whatever other ridiculous thing you're saying. People here have said (and rightly so) that he makes head-scratching pitching change and pinch-hit decisions, that is it, full stop.

 

Hyperbole though it might be, there are plenty on this board who want Farrell fired right now. As for the head-scratching pitching changes and pinch-hit decisions, those are in the eyes of beholders, all of whom rely heavily on 20-20 hindsight. To wit, when the Sox lose, it had to be the manager's fault: he left a pitcher in too long, used the wrong pitcher, didn't keep a pitcher in long enough, played Young (an "unmitigated evil" all by himself), used the wrong pinch hitter or failed to use one when needed, etc, etc. This same stuff was repeated ad nauseum during the entire tenure of Terry Francona, who was so bad he only helped win two WS and ended (with a lot of help from some very good players) the 86 year curse of the Bambino.

 

I think criticism of managerial decisions is the stuff of blog sites and of course to be expected. We all have our own ideas about what the right move should be. What I don't buy is the total conviction by some bloggers that they really do know more than the manager and are positive he is making bad move after bad move. If Farrell is as dumb as some on this board think he is, why isn't there a hue and cry among the commentators? Forget the NESN guys, I'm talking about beat reporters and espn guys and fox sports guys, etc., guys that John Henry doesn't own. Or forget Farrell and think about all those other 29 MLB managers for a moment. How many stories have you or anyone else read about a bad managerial decision that turned a win into a loss or failed to win a winnable game? Those stories are so rare we remember them, like Grady Little in I think the 7th game of the 2003 ALCS when he left Pedro in too long.

 

But my fundamental disagreement is with those who insist it must have been a bad decision (or several decisions) because the Sox lost the game. Their premise seems to be, "good managers simply don't lose games," which is preposterous. To date, for example, the Sox have lost 9 games. Would you like to bet we could go look at those 9 game threads and not find vehement criticism of Farrell's managing?

[Kingface]

That doesn't mean we can't criticize Farrell in a forum created for baseball discussion, especially if the criticism is respectful.

 

I disagree because I think the Toronto game where Koji had dead arm falls squarely on his shoulders. Ditto for two games where he let Young take extremely important AB's against RHP late in the game with viable replacements in the bench. I think his lineup management and PH decisions have been largely better, but resting both Papi and Hanley a couple days ago literally created a bald spot for me after all the scratching.

 

However, as I have stated before. the other aspects of managing are also extremely important, and Farrell manages them well, but is it not fair to wonder out loud whether we have the best option managing right now?

 

I was agreeing with you.......not sure what you're disagreeing with. I said this: he makes some very odd in-game decisions

 

I simply do not think that a team that has won 4 in a row and is .5 games behind 1st place should even consider firing the manager. I said if they were going to do that (and I think they SHOULD have) then it should have happened this past offseason.

 

"That doesn't mean we can't criticize Farrell in a forum created for baseball discussion,"

 

I know how forums work and never said we shouldn't criticize and suggest.....I was sharing my point of view which is what a forum is for.

[User Name]

Hyperbole though it might be, there are plenty on this board who want Farrell fired right now. As for the head-scratching pitching changes and pinch-hit decisions, those are in the eyes of beholders, all of whom rely heavily on 20-20 hindsight. To wit, when the Sox lose, it had to be the manager's fault: he left a pitcher in too long, used the wrong pitcher, didn't keep a pitcher in long enough, played Young (an "unmitigated evil" all by himself), used the wrong pinch hitter or failed to use one when needed, etc, etc. This same stuff was repeated ad nauseum during the entire tenure of Terry Francona, who was so bad he only helped win two WS and ended (with a lot of help from some very good players) the 86 year curse of the Bambino.

 

I think criticism of managerial decisions is the stuff of blog sites and of course to be expected. We all have our own ideas about what the right move should be. What I don't buy is the total conviction by some bloggers that they really do know more than the manager and are positive he is making bad move after bad move. If Farrell is as dumb as some on this board think he is, why isn't there a hue and cry among the commentators? Forget the NESN guys, I'm talking about beat reporters and espn guys and fox sports guys, etc., guys that John Henry doesn't own. Or forget Farrell and think about all those other 29 MLB managers for a moment. How many stories have you or anyone else read about a bad managerial decision that turned a win into a loss or failed to win a winnable game? Those stories are so rare we remember them, like Grady Little in I think the 7th game of the 2003 ALCS when he left Pedro in too long.

 

But my fundamental disagreement is with those who insist it must have been a bad decision (or several decisions) because the Sox lost the game. Their premise seems to be, "good managers simply don't lose games," which is preposterous. To date, for example, the Sox have lost 9 games. Would you like to bet we could go look at those 9 game threads and not find vehement criticism of Farrell's managing?

 

Here's my question: Who on this board has flat-out said they want Farrell fired? mvp's usually f***ing around with this stuff, like the "trade Pedroia" schtick, but that's what he does. Other than that , people criticize Farrell's in-game management and that's that.

 

As for the rest of the post, I think you're A) Creating a strawman argument by assigning position to others on the board they have not presented, and Exaggerating quite a bit.

 

The crux of the argument is that Farrell , in the eyes of many, has made some head-scratching decisions. That's it. You're more than free to disagree, but let's stick to what's actually being said, keep it in context, and keep it civil.

[User Name]

I was agreeing with you.......not sure what you're disagreeing with. I said this: he makes some very odd in-game decisions

 

I simply do not think that a team that has won 4 in a row and is .5 games behind 1st place should even consider firing the manager. I said if they were going to do that (and I think they SHOULD have) then it should have happened this past offseason.

 

"That doesn't mean we can't criticize Farrell in a forum created for baseball discussion,"

 

I know how forums work and never said we shouldn't criticize and suggest.....I was sharing my point of view which is what a forum is for.

 

It was a general reply more in tune to your defense of maxbia, certainly not implying you were doing such a thing, sorry it came off like that.

 

One thing that even Farrell criticizers freely admit (me included) is that the team is playing hard for him. And with a team full of young players and a couple guys with a reputation for not giving 100% all the time (I love Hanley, but that reputation has always preceded him), that is extremely important.

[CliffKlowers]

Well said. I totally concurr.

[Kingface]

It was a general reply more in tune to your defense of maxbia, certainly not implying you were doing such a thing, sorry it came off like that.

One thing that even Farrell criticizers freely admit (me included) is that the team is playing hard for him. And with a team full of young players and a couple guys with a reputation for not giving 100% all the time (I love Hanley, but that reputation has always preceded him), that is extremely important.

 

Gotcha! No worries!

[SinceYaz]

Absolutely not - Tek has never filled in a lineup card. His time as catcher is wildly overrated - he was an outstanding catcher, but vintage Pedro Martinez could make a trained seal look good back there.

 

If Farrell is gone, you look at guys like Lovullo, Alex Cora, Bud Black. Managing is an actual job - and I'd like somebody with some experience doing it.

 

 

Not sure that Tek didn't "coach" ... was famous for his reams of notes and preparation for each opposing player as well as handling our pitching staff. If I had a buck for every time I heard a variation of "he is as good as an extra coach out on the field" I could at least buy all of us here a White Castle burger, no cheese.

[Slasher9]

i wonder if David Ortiz farewell season factors into team effort thus far this season? personally i think that is more of a motivator than JF.

2013 - the Tsarnaev brothers were the motivator. not JF. How well does JF "motivate" his players? i would look at 2014 & first half of 2015. he really doesn't do a good job of getting the players to play hard for him. this year the team is doing it for Papi. and i am fine with that. JF just needs to minimize some of those head scratching decisions. there were quite a few at the beginning of the season but a 5 game winning streak most certainly puts it to the back of our minds.

[a700hitter]

I think Farrell leads all current major league managers in last place finishes. I wish we had a different manager, but it would not send a good message to the team to fire him at this time.

[SinceYaz]

I think if you search around here, other forums and in the media.....SOME people pretty much talk about Farrell like he is the worst manager ever. Max was simply saying that in an exaggerated manner to drive a point home. I don't think his intention is to put a blanket statement out there that everyone hates him and thinks he's evil......

 

 

Heh ... on another site I have visited, it is almost universal, King. )

 

I think he will become a better and better manager as we see ERod come back, Porcello continue to improve, Wright keeping on with the right stuff and Price settling into ace-dom. In the course of just this last week, all of a sudden we have turned a corner. The brilliant call up of Vaz certainly helped ...

 

Farrell isn't flying solo here. I think that DD is very much keeping his finger on the daily pulse, triage work being done as often as daily. I haven't seen the brilliance of putting Chris Young in where he isn't facing the pitchers he hits well (compared to the other side).

 

I think DD is very much tied to the purse strings of Mr. Henry ... and that results are expected rather immediately because he has been so free with John's club and money.

[SoxHop]

i wonder if David Ortiz farewell season factors into team effort thus far this season? personally i think that is more of a motivator than JF.

2013 - the Tsarnaev brothers were the motivator. not JF. How well does JF "motivate" his players? i would look at 2014 & first half of 2015. he really doesn't do a good job of getting the players to play hard for him. this year the team is doing it for Papi. and i am fine with that. JF just needs to minimize some of those head scratching decisions. there were quite a few at the beginning of the season but a 5 game winning streak most certainly puts it to the back of our minds.

 

I don't know this for sure. But it seems like the team likes Farrell. Mainly due to things said by players after it was announced he had cancer.

 

I think they played hard for Farrell the second half even though he wasn't with the club, but for his situation. I also think they are playing hard for him now knowing his job is on the line. I'm not sure if Farrell is a great motivator, but the situation he is in and how the team feels about him may be.

 

And in general, the team has a lot to prove after last place finishes. If you looked at each player on the team, you could identify why that person would be motivated.

[SoxnCycles]

Here's my question: Who on this board has flat-out said they want Farrell fired? mvp's usually f***ing around with this stuff, like the "trade Pedroia" schtick, but that's what he does. Other than that , people criticize Farrell's in-game management and that's that.

As for the rest of the post, I think you're A) Creating a strawman argument by assigning position to others on the board they have not presented, and Exaggerating quite a bit.

 

The crux of the argument is that Farrell , in the eyes of many, has made some head-scratching decisions. That's it. You're more than free to disagree, but let's stick to what's actually being said, keep it in context, and keep it civil.

 

You may want to read the first few pages of the "Who to Blame" thread again.

Or perhaps you have a different in terpretation of "needs to be gone sooner rather than later".

[mvp 78]

No, Farrell should be gone. 100%.

[mvp 78]

My biggest reason is that Lovullo is better and he's already on staff. No manager search required.

[User Name]

You may want to read the first few pages of the "Who to Blame" thread again.

Or perhaps you have a different in terpretation of "needs to be gone sooner rather than later".

 

The problem is that I don't take reactionary stuff seriously. However, MVP apparently really wants Farrell to GTFO, so there's one person.

[Dojji]

My biggest reason is that Lovullo is better and he's already on staff. No manager search required.

 

Not a tone of evidence for that, other than a 50 game stretch that could simply be normal randonmness.

[mvp 78]

Sure, it could be random. I still would take that chance over what I've seen from Farrell. He's better than Valentine and Kerrigan, but he's towards the bottom of the Sox managing totem pole. It's not a one month over reaction. I haven't liked him since 2013.

[cp176]

It looks as though john Farrell is very good manager of people. Players like him and work hard for him. That said, he does do some "interesting" things. What he doesn't do might be more important though - He does not throw the ball for Price or Kimbrel and he does not hit for Young. I do not happen to think that Lovullo provides any major improvement. It would amount to change for change sake.

[Kimmi]

IMO, the ability to manage the players is more important than in game managing. For the most part, the in game decisions are really not that difficult. At this point, Farrell seems to be doing a good job with the off field managing, regardless of his head scratching in game decisions. At any rate, 3 weeks into the season is too soon to make any kind of full assessment on Farrell or any of the players.