Spring training

[cp176]

So with the off day Porcello threw 6 solid innings against the Ray's AAA team.

 

See, I can be optimistic.

 

did you catch who he pitched to and what Porcello said after? who winds up being the catcher going forward is going to be interesting.

[mvp 78]

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/168661356/red-sox-mookie-betts-answers-twitter-questions

 

A question from SoxFanForSyth to Mookie posted in MLB.com. I lol'd.

Arrested Development superfan

[SoxHop]

did you catch who he pitched to and what Porcello said after? who winds up being the catcher going forward is going to be interesting.

 

The thing about Vasquez throwing back to him faster than he threw it?

 

What I am interested in is Vasquez or Hannigan just makes Porcello more comfortable. I know one of poor performance games pitched this year was caught by Swihart, and I think they all have been until this one. (How could you check on that?).

 

If I remember correctly last year they started having Hannigan catch Porcello once they both were back, and Porcello's better 2nd half happened.

[cp176]

The thing about Vasquez throwing back to him faster than he threw it?

 

What I am interested in is Vasquez or Hannigan just makes Porcello more comfortable. I know one of poor performance games pitched this year was caught by Swihart, and I think they all have been until this one. (How could you check on that?).

 

If I remember correctly last year they started having Hannigan catch Porcello once they both were back, and Porcello's better 2nd half happened.

 

even though I think that even post surgery, he has one of the best arms in the game what I was referring to was the way Vazquez handled his actual catching duties. Price, Kelly, and Porcello have been quoted on a few occasions now talking about how skilled he is. It is hard to underestimate the value to any pitching staff that a top of the lime catcher has. It is another position where there is and will continue to be some real competition. Based on what we have seen so far this spring, Red Sox starting rotation once again will need all the help it can get

Price - you get what you pay for here

Buck - looked good last time out - anyone want to truly bet on this guy?

Porcello -shaky 3- decent 4 - solid 5 in a good rotation

Kelly - potential for sure but what do you think?

E-Rod - Injured

Wright ? Owens? really (i'd still go with Elias)

 

Shaky at best. Hopefully E-Rod is back in action soon.

Just not a rotation that fosters a lot of confidence - sorry

[SoxHop]

even though I think that even post surgery, he has one of the best arms in the game what I was referring to was the way Vazquez handled his actual catching duties. Price, Kelly, and Porcello have been quoted on a few occasions now talking about how skilled he is. It is hard to underestimate the value to any pitching staff that a top of the lime catcher has. It is another position where there is and will continue to be some real competition. Based on what we have seen so far this spring, Red Sox starting rotation once again will need all the help it can get

Price - you get what you pay for here

Buck - looked good last time out - anyone want to truly bet on this guy?

Porcello -shaky 3- decent 4 - solid 5 in a good rotation

Kelly - potential for sure but what do you think?

E-Rod - Injured

Wright ? Owens? really (i'd still go with Elias)

 

Shaky at best. Hopefully E-Rod is back in action soon.

Just not a rotation that fosters a lot of confidence - sorry

 

I'm with you. Throwing out runners is just gravy.

 

Us fans can easily tell who can hit. But seeing how much a good receiver affects the pitcher is very difficult. I think Porcello maybe one of those kind of pitchers that needs to have a strong presence behind the plate, or he falls off the tracks. Some of our mediocre starters could really use the assistance I believe, and I think we saw some of that the first half of last year.

 

How do you qualify this other than CERA?

[jung]

Throwing for a catcher is "just gravy" because nobody knows how to run bases anymore. Nobody knows how to steal, how to take extra bases, how to bunt...all of that has gone by the boards in this insane, steadfast adherence to the sabremetrics mantra.....nothing but hitting matters. The foolishness in this is that they have all been hoodwinked. Nobody even teaches these skills any longer. We glorify via their salary a putz like Pablo who produced the laughable base running numbers that Pete Abraham put out the other day. Clearly the whole scale of players rated as base runners has gone in the tank with the bottom represented by a guy that can't run at all. That the mighty sabremetricans have not been able to develop tools that allow them to quantify and qualify things like defense and base running or batsmanship has led them to a very political decision or at the least a business decision. If we can't quantify or qualify it.....it must not matter!

 

So things that make baseball a great game and clearly as conceived, the most eclectic game we have simply get swept under the carpet by a belief in geeks that act like computers. Whatever made us believe these people understood this game? How many championships has it earned them out there in Oakland?

 

It is this insane insistence on and adherence to the principles of a stilted rating system, Sabremetrics, that guided Joe Madden to its baseball response....the exaggerated shift.....which is now slowly but surely being adopted across baseball. We can beat on Madden for his odd take on a manager's interaction with players all we want....that a manager of a team devoted to pitching and run prevention, that could not afford to compete for MLB's greatest hitters thought his way through the Sabresludge to a tool designed to counter it is as close to sheer genius that we will ever see come out of a manager's place in the dugout.

Edited March 24, 2016 by jung

[mvp 78]

Sabremeterics was about finding market inefficiencies, not about propping up hitting. Small market teams started to favor defense once OBP was overvalued again.

[jung]

Sabremeterics was about finding market inefficiencies, not about propping up hitting. Small market teams started to favor defense once OBP was overvalued again.

 

Its only been able to quantify and qualify to any degree authoritative, hitting matrices and a few pitching matrices which is the point. That leads to a number of woes some of which I identified above. One effect is that it boils all offense down to one feature of the offensive side of the game again leading to a number of woes that are utterly contrary to the spirit of the game.

 

"Market inefficiencies" is nothing more than a term used to cloud the reality of what is happening to this game and to what end? Again what has Oakland actually won since adopting it whole hog?

Edited March 24, 2016 by jung

[mvp 78]

Well, I can't convince you to change your mind on anything, so I'm not going to bother with this one.

[jung]

Well, I can't convince you to change your mind on anything, so I'm not going to bother with this one.

 

Just as you choose.

 

Until somebody can explain to me another reason for why bunting, base running frankly a number of baseball skills started their spiral down the drain exactly as Sabresludge became so prevalent, I will hold to my views thank you. The timing is as clear as the noses on Mt Rushmore's faces. You can take a shot at how long these sorts of trends take to wind their way through baseball virtually all of them beginning to disappear at the same time and you would count back to the beginnings of Sabresludge popularity.

 

These skills are clearly no longer taught or learned skills and because of that, another element of the game, a Catcher's ability to throw out runners also goes down the drain with the rest. Because of Sabreshit, a process that I hate, the exaggerated shift succeeds. I don't applaud Madden for starting the process of developing a tactic to its fullest because I like the tactic....I hate the darned thing. I applaud him for seeing this for what it is, for seeing the handwriting on the wall and having the brains to find his way to a means to deal with it. Hitters are in the main helpless in the face of the shift and it is not even as fully deployed to this point as it will be.

 

At some point we are are going to end up with the equivalent of the old "Home Run Derby" TV show with the only people happy with that the Fantasy League players who will finally have the game boiled down for them to a very least common denominator.

Edited March 24, 2016 by jung

[Bellhorn04]

Throwing for a catcher is "just gravy" because nobody knows how to run bases anymore. Nobody knows how to steal, how to take extra bases, how to bunt...all of that has gone by the boards in this insane, steadfast adherence to the sabremetrics mantra.....nothing but hitting matters. The foolishness in this is that they have all been hoodwinked. Nobody even teaches these skills any longer. We glorify via their salary a putz like Pablo who produced the laughable base running numbers that Pete Abraham put out the other day. Clearly the whole scale of players rated as base runners has gone in the tank with the bottom represented by a guy that can't run at all. That the mighty sabremetricans have not been able to develop tools that allow them to quantify and qualify things like defense and base running or batsmanship has led them to a very political decision or at the least a business decision. If we can't quantify or qualify it.....it must not matter!

 

But defense and base running are quantified in WAR, and they're a big reason Jason Heyward got the contract he did.

[jung]

But defense and base running are quantified in WAR, and they're a big reason Jason Heyward got the contract he did.

 

WAR is roundly criticized as being an ineffective tool because the defensive matrices that feed it are ineffective tools. That one won't pass....sorry

 

In fact even the offensive side of WAR is roundly criticized for being an ineffective tool...a nice toy and not much else.

 

That GM's overemphasis this nonsense is part of the problem, not suggestive of its value. Its relevance is determined by how many idiots you can get to believe in it..... has nothing to do with its value.

 

One of the single most interesting things about baseball is its eclectic nature all of which is spiraling down the drain......leading to a one dimensional game eventually....how "exciting" is the Home Run Derby for example even when by the greatest stars of today's game.....BORRRRRRRING......Its so boring the league is trying to change it to pump it and its announcers are left with screaming hyperbole as a means to pump its tires.

Edited March 24, 2016 by jung

[Bellhorn04]

WAR is roundly criticized as being an ineffective tool because the defensive matrices that feed it are ineffective tools. That one won't pass....sorry

 

In fact even the offensive side of WAR is roundly criticized for being an ineffective tool...a nice toy and not much else.

 

That GM's overemphasis this nonsense is part of the problem, not suggestive of its value. Its relevance is determined by how many idiots you can get to believe in it..... has nothing to do with its value.

 

One of the single most interesting things about baseball is its eclectic nature all of which is spiraling down the drain......leading to a one dimensional game eventually....how "exciting" is the Home Run Derby for example even when by the greatest stars of today's game.....BORRRRRRRING......Its so boring the league is trying to change it to pump it and its announcers are left with screaming hyperbole as a means to pump its tires.

 

So why did Heyward get 8 years and 184 million when he has a career .784 OPS and averages 19 HR and 68 RBI per 162? Isn't it because defense and base running are highly valued now?

[Elktonnick]

WAR is roundly criticized as being an ineffective tool because the defensive matrices that feed it are ineffective tools. That one won't pass....sorry

 

In fact even the offensive side of WAR is roundly criticized for being an ineffective tool...a nice toy and not much else.

 

That GM's overemphasis this nonsense is part of the problem, not suggestive of its value. Its relevance is determined by how many idiots you can get to believe in it..... has nothing to do with its value.

 

One of the single most interesting things about baseball is its eclectic nature all of which is spiraling down the drain......leading to a one dimensional game eventually....how "exciting" is the Home Run Derby for example even when by the greatest stars of today's game.....BORRRRRRRING......Its so boring the league is trying to change it to pump it and its announcers are left with screaming hyperbole as a means to pump its tires.

 

While I agree with your general premise that sabermetrics has over valued certain aspects of the game, sabermetrics is just one tool. Even John Henry has recognized that the sox have placed to much emphasis on the quantitative analytical approach. The great thing about baseball is the game is always evolving. The sabermetrics "money ball" approach of the past 15 years is but one example. The KC Royals approach and their winning the championship is yet another. The next brilliant innovating Owner, GM or Manager will be some one who can convince hitters and develop players who will hit against the shift. Making that tactic over used and obsolete.

[User Name]

Its only been able to quantify and qualify to any degree authoritative, hitting matrices and a few pitching matrices which is the point. That leads to a number of woes some of which I identified above. One effect is that it boils all offense down to one feature of the offensive side of the game again leading to a number of woes that are utterly contrary to the spirit of the game.

 

"Market inefficiencies" is nothing more than a term used to cloud the reality of what is happening to this game and to what end? Again what has Oakland actually won since adopting it whole hog?

 

You don't know what you're talking about. But as MVP stated, you'll never let facts get in the way of your incorrect arguments. Grow up.

[User Name]

Just as you choose.

 

Until somebody can explain to me another reason for why bunting, base running frankly a number of baseball skills started their spiral down the drain exactly as Sabresludge became so prevalent, I will hold to my views thank you. The timing is as clear as the noses on Mt Rushmore's faces. You can take a shot at how long these sorts of trends take to wind their way through baseball virtually all of them beginning to disappear at the same time and you would count back to the beginnings of Sabresludge popularity.

 

These skills are clearly no longer taught or learned skills and because of that, another element of the game, a Catcher's ability to throw out runners also goes down the drain with the rest. Because of Sabreshit, a process that I hate, the exaggerated shift succeeds. I don't applaud Madden for starting the process of developing a tactic to its fullest because I like the tactic....I hate the darned thing. I applaud him for seeing this for what it is, for seeing the handwriting on the wall and having the brains to find his way to a means to deal with it. Hitters are in the main helpless in the face of the shift and it is not even as fully deployed to this point as it will be.

 

At some point we are are going to end up with the equivalent of the old "Home Run Derby" TV show with the only people happy with that the Fantasy League players who will finally have the game boiled down for them to a very least common denominator.

 

What does this argument even mean? What are you even talking about? The no-bunt, station to station baseball has been around since Earl Weaver. Stop making s*** up.

[User Name]

But defense and base running are quantified in WAR, and they're a big reason Jason Heyward got the contract he did.

 

He doesn't even understand what sabermetrics is, yet won't shut up with his invalid arguments.

[jung]

So why did Heyward get 8 years and 184 million when he has a career .784 OPS and averages 19 HR and 68 RBI per 162? Isn't it because defense and base running are highly valued now?

 

No..... something is "highly valued" across an enterprise when it is something that is widely deployed across an enterprise. Entire skill sets have been going down the drain for years since the development and as Elk says the over-dependence on what is in fact a stilted tool....an incomplete as it relates to the actual game it tries to quantify and through Fantasy Leagues emulate. Sure there will be anecdotal evidence of an outlier, of a rare occurrence of a player still exhibiting a tool. But there is no denying that bunting, general batsmanship, base running and for that matter defense have all been going down the drainpipe since the onset of and over-dependence on sabremetrics which should just be a tool and nothing more. However it has not been used that way.....it has mutated into baseball's divining light and the results are obvious.

 

This didn't happen overnight either and the remedies will not happen overnight. The Shift for example is not nearly as fully deployed as it will be eventually. I would say we are somewhere between 50-60% there. I suspect baseball will continue to try to deny the Shift and ignore it till it is just eating them alive and then MAYBE finally change course back toward the fully featured game that we had once.

 

However, don't kid yourself, the Fantasy League nuts like the way the game is going and the people who make money off of them like the way the game is going...simply don't care that it is killing off aspects of the game that make it great in real form. They will cross that bridge when they come to it as long as they have extracted what they want from it till then. Do you think they care that we are moving to an unwatchable bore when they for the most part simply care to be able to pull up the game stats on their computers and compile their Fantasy Team results?

 

Why do you think people can even say things like "throwing for a catcher really does not matter". Have you seen the way base runners run the bases now? Runners get lousy jumps now...completely untrained on how to understand what the heck the pitcher is doing. Runners attempting to steal look back at home plate.......a cardinal sin of base running. You only back at home plate on a hit and run not a straight steal! Base runner slows down....catcher throws him out......Manager stops trying to steal. You do what you are trained to do properly and eventually stop doing what you are not trained to do.

Edited March 24, 2016 by jung

[User Name]

While I agree with your general premise that sabermetrics has over valued certain aspects of the game, sabermetrics is just one tool. Even John Henry has recognized that the sox have placed to much emphasis on the quantitative analytical approach. The great thing about baseball is the game is always evolving. The sabermetrics "money ball" approach of the past 15 years is but one example. The KC Royals approach and their winning the championship is yet another. The next brilliant innovating Owner, GM or Manager will be some one who can convince hitters and develop players who will hit against the shift. Making that tactic over used and obsolete.

 

KC has one of the biggest analytics departments in all of baseball. They use the current WAR value model more than any other team not named the Houston Astros.

[jacksonianmarch]

Owens and Johnson optioned. ERod's temporary replacement down to Elias and Wright. Koji is out with "general soreness", but should be good to go for the season. He has allowed 5 runs in less than 2IP thus far.

[cp176]

so anyway - couple of things - Owens and Johnson both go back to AAA to start anyway. Wright or Elias probably in that initial rotation. Sandoval is out for a few days. Got hurt diving for ball earlier this week. If you haven't seen it, go back and take a look. Maybe I'm confused and that was a great play for anyone and not just someone who really isn't in very good shape. This picture is becoming clearer and clearer and it doesn't even have to involve Shaw. Sandoval needs to be fitter in order to play third base! It is a good thing that we have Shaw.

[Dojji]

I'm glad we have Shaw too, he looks like a great guy to come off the bench and back up third base. I hope he proves he can play full time at third base if needed. This injury by Pablo couldn't come at a worse time for him given the competition for a job so it very much looks like Shaw may break camp as our third baseman.

 

Which I'm a bit nervous about due to Shaw's overall lack of reps at third in the last few years and concerns about his athleticism at the position, but hey, it might be OK -- and it's not like his competition doesn't also have issues with athletics and mobility.

 

If I was DD though, I'd be laying the groundwork for an emergency deal for a veteran 3B just in case.

[Elktonnick]

I'm glad we have Shaw too, he looks like a great guy to come off the bench and back up third base. I hope he proves he can play full time at third base if needed. This injury by Pablo couldn't come at a worse time for him given the competition for a job so it very much looks like Shaw may break camp as our third baseman.

 

Which I'm a bit nervous about due to Shaw's overall lack of reps at third in the last few years and concerns about his athleticism at the position, but hey, it might be OK -- and it's not like his competition doesn't also have issues with athletics and mobility.

 

If I was DD though, I'd be laying the groundwork for an emergency deal for a veteran 3B just in case.

 

While injuries are a fact of life in baseball and all ballplayers get injured, Sandoval's weight and overall poor conditioning makes it more likely that he will get injured, more often and for longer periods of time. Whatever your concerns about Shaw at third should be doubled with regard to Sandoval. Shaw is more athletic and has better range than Pablo.

 

If I were DD I'd be more concerned about adding another reliever than 3rd baseman. The Carson Smith injury is a cause for great concern. Smith has a funky delivery and an elbow or forearm injury was only a matter of time. I am more concerned about how well Smith will bounce back. Moreover given the shaky rotation after Price I can see a difficult early season ahead. There are simply too many questions both with the rotation and in the pen to give me any cause for comfort.

[Dojji]

The problem with that argument Elktonnik, is that even if Pablo has the same flaws only worse, that doesn't mean that Shaw isn't a flawed potential 3Bman. My opinion is that Shaw isn't so much a solution, as fact that we can't do better than Shaw defensively at 3b is a problem.

 

if I was DD I would be looking to find some way to upgrade our depth at 3B.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Dojji

[a700hitter]

This isn't going to help Pablo's case to be the starter. He dove once and came up lame.

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD][h=1]Red Sox notes: Pablo Sandoval sidelined with back issue; Koji Uehara dealing with soreness; Bullpen taking shape[/h][/TD]

[TD=align: right]03.24.16 at 10:11 am ET[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

By Rob Bradford

http://fullcount.weei.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Sandoval_Pablo-Red-Sox-head-15.jpgPablo Sandoval

 

FORT MYERS, Fla. — With just 11 days until Opening Day, the third base competition might be getting a bit clearer. Pablo Sandoval won’t be playing for the next few days due to lower back tightness, an ailment that cropped up when he made a diving stop in Jupiter against the Marlins Tuesday.

“He’s going to be down for a couple of days, just trying to get back,” said Red Sox manager John Farrell. “He’s going to be unavailable on a day to day status right now.”

Travis Shaw got the start Thursday against the Mets, hitting sixth behind Hanley Ramirez.

Farrell didn’t believe that the back issue would lead to a disabled list stint for Sandoval at this point.

###

Another injury setting back the Red Sox a bit is the general soreness being felt by Koji Uehara, who has pitched in just two Grapefruit League games.

“He’s going to be more aggressive on flat ground today. Bullpen hopefully tomorrow, and then we look to get him in a game following that,” said Farrell, who doesn’t anticipate Uehara not being ready for the regular season.

###

It appears the Red Sox might be lining up Roenis Elias to serve as the long man out of the bullpen, with the lefty following up Joe Kelly against the Mets Thursday at JetBlue Park.

Elias is still technically competing with Steven Wright for the final spot in the rotation.

“That would be a different role than he’s pitched at the big league level. So that’s one scenario that we’re looking at,” Farrell said. “But we’re not ready to announce who is going to win that fifth spot.

“The one thing that you look at is who can give you multiple innings and potentially up to four innings, particularly early in the year. That’s where Steven was so valuable to us at the beginning of last year. So we feel like there are two very good options to provide that. … If it ends up being Roenis, he has the ability to get a good left-handed hitter out, as well.”

###

It appears as though Matt Barnes and Noe Ramirez are competing to take the place of Carson Smith, who will start the season on the disabled list.

Barnes isn’t necessarily viewed as a one-inning guy, although Farrell did note that the righty has the potential to be a seventh-inning, swing-and-miss option.

Farrell also noted the similarity of Ramirez’s unique delivery to Smith, who was being viewed as a weapon against right-handed hitting.

“We’ll take the guys who are most deserving, and protect us with some length. That’s needed,” Farrell said. “First and foremost is who is pithing the best before we break camp.”

As for Carlos Marmol, the manager said the organization would like to see his arm strength continue to be built up.

###

Farrell reiterated how impressed he was with the performance of Sam Travis, who was optioned to the minors Thursday.

“You marvel at his ability to sit for two hours and get up and square up mid-90’s velocity,” the manager said. “The hands work really well as a hitter. Developing as a first baseman on the defensive side. But for the first year in a major league camp, he’s done everything he possibly could to impress.”

###

Eduardo Rodriguez threw a bullpen Wednesday and will have two days down before participating with a more aggressive and extended bullpen Saturday.

 

[Elktonnick]

The problem with that argument Elktonnik, is that even if Pablo has the same flaws only worse, that doesn't mean that Shaw isn't a flawed potential 3Bman. My opinion is that Shaw isn't so much a solution, as fact that we can't do better than Shaw defensively at 3b is a problem.

 

if I was DD I would be looking to find some way to upgrade our depth at 3B.

 

Shaw was a highly ranked 1st base prospect so despite his shortcomings in earlier scouting reports regarding his lateral movement he should do well at 3rd. He is noted to be a hard worker student of the game with a strong arm. From what I've seen he'll do fine at 3rd. He is definitely an upgrade to Sandoval defensively. There is no need to go get anyone for 3rd at this juncture since if your priority is early wins the need is in the bullpen. That's where DD efforts need to focused.

[cp176]

I'm glad we have Shaw too, he looks like a great guy to come off the bench and back up third base. I hope he proves he can play full time at third base if needed. This injury by Pablo couldn't come at a worse time for him given the competition for a job so it very much looks like Shaw may break camp as our third baseman.

 

Which I'm a bit nervous about due to Shaw's overall lack of reps at third in the last few years and concerns about his athleticism at the position, but hey, it might be OK -- and it's not like his competition doesn't also have issues with athletics and mobility.

 

If I was DD though, I'd be laying the groundwork for an emergency deal for a veteran 3B just in case.

 

You are entitled your concerns about Shaw. Suggesting that he isn't very athletic is a stretch in my book. He might now be what you see as our future third baseman but I really hope that you aren't suggesting that you think Sandoval is more athletic than he is.

[mvp 78]

One of the single most interesting things about baseball is its eclectic nature all of which is spiraling down the drain......leading to a one dimensional game eventually....

 

Is it the late 90's again where everyone is on HGH and jacking bombs? Did I miss something?

 

Didn't we just have a WS winner that won based off of defense and a great bullpen?

[cp176]

This isn't going to help Pablo's case to be the starter. He dove once and came up lame.

 

 

I got to go here. i don't consider that a dive or even a ball that required a dive from someone who is athletic. it was a flop. He can swing the bat but so far he really can't field the position. We are fortunate that it looks as though we have a general manager who gets it.

[mvp 78]

You don't know what you're talking about. But as MVP stated, you'll never let facts get in the way of your incorrect arguments. Grow up.

 

I just don't understand someone who has an attitude of "you'll never convince me." So what's the point then? Why even come here if you don't want to hear or consider opposing viewpoints?