Do taller pitchers have more difficulty learning to repeat their delvery

[Elktonnick]

The issue arose over concern whether Henry Owens will make the successive transition to being an effective starter. Owens does not have overwhelming velocity so he needs to exercise pinpoint control to effective. An 2001 article in SI contain the following:

 

"Most taller pitchers were not successful at a young age," says Toronto Blue Jays vice president Tim Wilken. "Johnson, Richard,Nelson, Steve Carlton [6'3"]. They take longer learning to control their delivery because they have more room for error."

 

Given a choice between a promising big pitcher and a promising small pitcher, scouts will take

the big man every time. "I know of nine clubs who tell their scouts not to bother turning in recommendations on right handed pitchers who aren't at least 6'2"," says Tom House, a former major league pitcher and pitching coach who is a consultant to several teams. "They see a big guy and they see raw tools.]So it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that pitchers will keep getting bigger. Nobody ever got fired for drafting a 6'5" pitcher who throws over 90 miles per hour."

 

How many 6'7" professional golfers are there?" asks House. "The taller you are, the harder it is to master the biomechanics of pitching. A small person is more coordinated with his extremities than a big guy."

 

The question is House's view accurate

[a700hitter]

The issue arose over concern whether Henry Owens will make the successive transition to being an effective starter. Owens does not have overwhelming velocity so he needs to exercise pinpoint control to effective. An 2001 article in SI contain the following:j

 

"Most taller pitchers were not successful at a young age," says Toronto Blue Jays vice president Tim Wilken. "Johnson, Richard,Nelson, Steve Carlton [6'3"]. They take longer learning to control their delivery because they have more room for error."

 

Given a choice between a promising big pitcher and a promising small pitcher, scouts will take

the big man every time. "I know of nine clubs who tell their scouts not to bother turning in recommendations on right handed pitchers who aren't at least 6'2"," says Tom House, a former major league pitcher and pitching coach who is a consultant to several teams. "They see a big guy and they see raw tools.]So it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that pitchers will keep getting bigger. Nobody ever got fired for drafting a 6'5" pitcher who throws over 90 miles per hour."

 

How many 6'7" professional golfers are there?" asks House. "The taller you are, the harder it is to master the biomechanics of pitching. A small person is more coordinated with his extremities than a big guy."

 

The question is House's view accurate

There is definitely a pitcher's body- type reflected on major league rosters. There are very few starting pitchers under 6'2". I don't know how much more difficult it is for a big guy to master repetitive mechanics. I think that varies tremendously depending on the guy's delivery. I think the advantage of being tall and long-limbed is very real. When I was a little kid in the 1960's my father explained to me how the big guys had the advantage of leverage. Longer arms produce more leverage. Longer legs result in a longer stride and more leverage. Big hands with long fingers give more leverage and increase the ability to manipulate the baseball and command different pitches. He always told me that good pitchers had big hands, and throughout my life I have observed that whenever I met a major league pitcher. Tom Seaver is not much taller than me, but his hands are enormous. I have large hands, but my hand disappeared into Seaver's when we shook hands. I think there might be some validity to the theory that big guys have a tougher time mastering their deliveries, but that is far outweighed by the advantages of being tall.

[Kimmi]

The idea that taller pitchers have an advantage or are better pitchers is another one of those false assumptions that the stats just do not bear out.

[Elktonnick]

The idea that taller pitchers have an advantage or are better pitchers is another one of those false assumptions that the stats just do not bear out.

 

While I may agree with you there are many who do not, at least judging from the discussion I had elsewhere. This issue I raise is not whether they are better or have an advantage but whether Tom House is accurate, namely do taller pitcher have a more difficult time repeating their deliveries. House is a leading pitching coach.

 

The reason I ask this is I believe this may be the key issue whether Owens is successful.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Elktonnick

[Elktonnick]

There is definitely a pitcher's body- type reflected on major league rosters. There are very few starting pitchers under 6'2". I don't know how much more difficult it is for a big guy to master repetitive mechanics. I think that varies tremendously depending on the guy's delivery. I think the advantage of being tall and long-limbed is very real. When I was a little kid in the 1960's my father explained to me how the big guys had the advantage of leverage. Longer arms produce more leverage. Longer legs result in a longer stride and more leverage. Big hands with long fingers give more leverage and increase the ability to manipulate the baseball and command different pitches. He always told me that good pitchers had big hands, and throughout my life I have observed that whenever I met a major league pitcher. Tom Seaver is not much taller than me, but his hands are enormous. I have large hands, but my hand disappeared into Seaver's when we shook hands. I think there might be some validity to the theory that big guys have a tougher time mastering their deliveries, but that is far outweighed by the advantages of being tall.

 

I remember what well Pedro who I believe is only 5'11 had said about his fingers. Pedro has long fingers and he said during an interview that he believed that the length of his fingers was an import ingredient to his success.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Elktonnick

[Northern Star]

I'll have to delve into this one a bit more.

[a700hitter]

I remember what well Pedro who I believe is only 5'11 had said about his fingers. Pedro has long fingers and he said during an interview that he believed that the length of his fingers was an import ingredient to his success.

The longer fingers he felt added to his command and velocity. Long limbs and height gives extra leverage. I don't have a PhD in Physics, but I am pretty sure that is true. Height alone doesn't make a pitcher better, but taller pitchers do have a physical advantage.

[cp176]

From a mental perspective I think a taller pitcher can seem much more intimidating which could result in good outcomes for him. All things being equal, I used to feel a lot more comfortable with someone my size throwing the ball at me.

[jung]

Tall pitchers are not likely to have the control of shorter guys but what they lose in control they make up for in juice.

 

Arguably the greatest control pitcher of all time....Greg Maddox. Sort of makes the point.

 

While a shorter guy can have gas.....the really tall guys should be able to throw gas and if they can't they are really in a tough spot to advance from IMO. I don't know what the Sox will do with Owens...big tall guy with no gas.....NO THANKS!

[Bellhorn04]

The Chris Young that pitched for the Royals this year is 6-10. I was watching one of the games he pitched in the postseason and one of the commentators was going on about how his delivery angle makes the ball harder to pick up and makes him trickier than his stuff would indicate he should be.

 

That's about all I have on this topic...

[jung]

There are both tall and short pitchers for whom the ball appears to the batter to either be coming right out of their heads or right out of their uni jerseys. That IS a matter of arm angle. The ball tends to get onto the hitter with a bit more surprise as the hitter has to pick the ball out of the guys head or more difficult, his uni jersey. With Young, the batter is trying pick up the ball out of all that mess and it has been thrown about six inches to a foot closer to him than he is used to. With that, Young usually does not get past one or two times through the order and the hitters have adapted....end of trick! But he can be one heck of a change of pace coming in for a starter when the Royals need two or three innings from somebody.

[User Name]

Yet Mark Mulder was 6'6, just like Owens, threw with even less velocity, and was an extremely succesful pitcher smack dab in the middle of the steroid era. Not to mention that Owens actually has above-average velocity for a lefty. These "one size fits all" explanations are wrong 99% time of the time. People with actual experience in the area of pitching (or more specifically, coaching it or developing it), as well as people who play baseball for a living will tell you that long, gangly guys (and even moreso if they are lefty) have a harder time repeating their delivery, but their velocity and break plays up because the hitter sees the guy as being right on top of them when they finish their delivery. With Owens, it's a matter of command and control, not stuff.

[Kimmi]

While I may agree with you there are many who do not, at least judging from the discussion I had elsewhere. This issue I raise is not whether they are better or have an advantage but whether Tom House is accurate, namely do taller pitcher have a more difficult time repeating their deliveries. House is a leading pitching coach.

 

The reason I ask this is I believe this may be the key issue whether Owens is successful.

 

I am sure there are a lot of people who believe that taller pitchers have an advantage. It's one of those traditional beliefs that people have accepted as true with no statistical support whatsoever.

 

As far as whether a taller pitcher would have a more difficult time repeating his delivery, intuitively, that would make sense to me. The smaller and more compact a player is, the less his arms and legs have to move, so repeating his delivery would seem easier.

[Kimmi]

The longer fingers he felt added to his command and velocity. Long limbs and height gives extra leverage. I don't have a PhD in Physics, but I am pretty sure that is true. Height alone doesn't make a pitcher better, but taller pitchers do have a physical advantage.

 

Taller pitchers may have a physical advantage, but that does not translate into a pitching advantage over shorter pitchers.

[Northern Star]

The idea that taller pitchers have an advantage or are better pitchers is another one of those false assumptions that the stats just do not bear out.

 

What are you basing that on? Wouldn't you need to see the stats broken out by pitchers' height? Has that been done anywhere? Plenty of anecdotal evidence - ie Randy Johnson - but I'd be interested in seeing the cold hard stats.

[Kimmi]

What are you basing that on? Wouldn't you need to see the stats broken out by pitchers' height? Has that been done anywhere? Plenty of anecdotal evidence - ie Randy Johnson - but I'd be interested in seeing the cold hard stats.

 

Be careful what you ask for.

 

http://sabr.org/research/does-pitcher-s-height-matter

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/short-pitchers-still-getting-short-shrift/

[a700hitter]

Taller pitchers may have a physical advantage, but that does not translate into a pitching advantage over shorter pitchers.

It translates into more velocity generated from increased leverage, i.e. more raw talent that pitching coaches think they can mold. It doesn't guarantee success more so than a short pitcher. However, it is telling that there are not many starting pitchers on major league rosters under 6'2". In the general population more people are under 6'2" so I think size might have something to do with this. I am sure though that your husband appreciates that you think size doesn't matter.

[Kimmi]

It translates into more velocity generated from increased leverage, i.e. more raw talent that pitching coaches think they can mold. It doesn't guarantee success more so than a short pitcher. However, it is telling that there are not many starting pitchers on major league rosters under 6'2". In the general population more people are under 6'2" so I think size might have something to do with this. I am sure though that your husband appreciates that you think size doesn't matter.

 

There are not many starting pitchers under 6'2" because they are not being drafted due to bias. There are a lot of people who falsely believe that tall pitchers will have more success than shorter pitchers.

[jacksonianmarch]

Think about it this way. You are talking about an 1/8th of a rotation of the wrist, a couple millimeters on the ball, and exact repetition of motion. If there is more to control, there is more that can go wrong. It makes sense from a physics perspective

[jung]

This is a tough place for Owens to pitch as well. The last game he pitched here in 2015 he looked like a poorly connected bunch of 2x4's. He was a stick figure out there in the cold and got bombed. Whatever success he is likely to have is likely to be found in a warmer climate than we can offer him here. Maybe he has thin blood. But all those long limbs are tough enough for him to get under control. The cold looks like one brick too many loaded onto his back.

[a700hitter]

There are not many starting pitchers under 6'2" because they are not being drafted due to bias. There are a lot of people who falsely believe that tall pitchers will have more success than shorter pitchers.

Uh, okay. Case closed. I guess the talent evaluators are all doing a bad job.

 

What about velocity? Is that over-emphasized too, because that is what the big boys bring with them? The little guys generally don't throw as hard. It takes more effort for them to get to the velocity levels of the big boys, because the big boys have the advantage of additional leverage. It is just physics.

Edited January 7, 2016 by a700hitter

[jung]

I think the other reason you are seeing more and more big pitchers in baseball is because now from high school on, baseball is trying to develop more and more power pitchers and those tend to be bigger guys. Pedro had those huge hands and could get a good deal of leverage on the ball. Timmy had terrific juice for a smaller guy in his early years...but you could see that his buggy whip motion, the force behind the leverage he could get on the ball was going to exert enormous stress on his body and that his period of high velo would likely be short lived as a starting pitcher. Developing more power arms means more of them are making it to the bigs in one way or another.

 

It is yet another example of baseball really sort of being broken down to its least common denominators....something I really don't like. Everyday players are now more and more, hitters that can play tolerable defense. Even within the category of hitting, can they actually handle a bat? Nobody can bunt anymore. Guys can barely sacrifice. Pitchers are more and more power pitchers and pitchers generally are clearly not even trained to cover 1st off the mound!

[Kimmi]

Uh, okay. Case closed. I guess the talent evaluators are all doing a bad job.

 

What about velocity? Is that over-emphasized too, because that is what the big boys bring with them? The little guys generally don't throw as hard. It takes more effort for them to get to the velocity levels of the big boys, because the big boys have the advantage of additional leverage. It is just physics.

 

Taller pitchers do have a release point closer to the batter. They also do have more of a downward plane toward the plate. However, these things have not translated to better pitching performance. As far as taller pitchers having more velocity,

 

"While longer arms, acting as levers, are certainly helpful in throwing hard, having a quick arm is just as important, if not more so."

 

Once again, the idea that taller pitchers are better is a traditional idea that has been so ingrained into people that it has been widely accepted with no proof. The numbers show otherwise.

[User Name]

He clearly didn't read what you posted.

[Kimmi]

Uh, okay. Case closed. I guess the talent evaluators are all doing a bad job.

 

What about velocity? Is that over-emphasized too, because that is what the big boys bring with them? The little guys generally don't throw as hard. It takes more effort for them to get to the velocity levels of the big boys, because the big boys have the advantage of additional leverage. It is just physics.

 

As far as the talent evaluators go, they are largely biased against shorter pitchers.

[Kimmi]

He clearly didn't read what you posted.

 

This is what I've been trying to get at with the whole "old school versus new school" thing. Even if he did read it, he will disregard it for one reason or another because it does not gel with what he believes.

[a700hitter]

Taller pitchers do have a release point closer to the batter. They also do have more of a downward plane toward the plate. However, these things have not translated to better pitching performance. As far as taller pitchers having more velocity,

 

"While longer arms, acting as levers, are certainly helpful in throwing hard, having a quick arm is just as important, if not more so."

 

Once again, the idea that taller pitchers are better is a traditional idea that has been so ingrained into people that it has been widely accepted with no proof. The numbers show otherwise.

With the same musculature, the extra leverage produces more velocity. That is just physics.

 

You did not answer my question. Is velocity overemphasized in scouting?

[a700hitter]

As far as the talent evaluators go, they are largely biased against shorter pitchers.

Scouts like velocity, and the bigger guys have the velocity, and the extra leverage reduces stress on the arm thus helping durability.

[a700hitter]

This is what I've been trying to get at with the whole "old school versus new school" thing. Even if he did read it, he will disregard it for one reason or another because it does not gel with what he believes.

It isn't what I believe. I have not said once that big pitchers are better than small pitchers. I have said that the baseball establishment prefers the big guys because they have the raw tools to throw at high velocity. I think that the physics are definitely in favor of the big guys for velocity. That has nothing to do with bias. If there is a bias in play, it is a bias in favor of velocity as opposed to other attributes like command. It is not a bias against short pitchers because they are short. Edited January 8, 2016 by a700hitter

[dupree]

As far as the talent evaluators go, they are largely biased against shorter pitchers.

I'm 6'6" and pitched in college at the University of Tennessee and when I was getting ready to sign the paperwork to commit, a pro scout from the Phillies came up to me and a couple of my buddies while we were taking fly balls in the outfield and asked us to remove our sunglasses so he could see our eye color. He looked and wrote down the other two guys. Then he looked at me and saw I had blue eyes and he said "damn son, that's a shame" I asked why he said that and he explained that a blue eyed boy has a harder time dealing with sunlight. I was like is that really a knock on me? He said absolutely because will all the talent across this county and abroad everything in under the microscope. He sat behind home plate for my next two AAU starts and then 1 for my high school and he came back up and asked if I thought I could play 3rd base or RF and I asked the coach and he slide me to those positions. After I signed with UT he asked if I thought I could add weight over my 1st year of college and fill out to gain velocity. Well long story short I walked onto to University of Tennessee campus 6'6 175lbs and after some hard work and a few questionable supplements I gained 30lbs during my freshman year during one game I was scheduled to pitch against AZ state JV team I was throwing balks with the outfielders and I had a sharp pain in my elbow and sure enough it was a torn UCL and my hopes a dreams were gone with it.

 

The point I'm trying to make is everything is judged on you from 6&7 yr old baseball all the way thru youth ball and then the microscope gets brighter in high school not to mention if you play AAU ball and then coaches or scouts try to mold you into the player they want you to be but most kids body can't handle that day in day out ware and tare. That's why only a select few make it to the show. It takes genetics, ability, drive, and just sheer luck in my opinion.