Do taller pitchers have more difficulty learning to repeat their delvery

[a700hitter]

I'm 6'6" and pitched in college at the University of Tennessee and when I was getting ready to sign the paperwork to commit, a pro scout from the Phillies came up to me and a couple of my buddies while we were taking fly balls in the outfield and asked us to remove our sunglasses so he could see our eye color. He looked and wrote down the other two guys. Then he looked at me and saw I had blue eyes and he said "damn son, that's a shame" I asked why he said that and he explained that a blue eyed boy has a harder time dealing with sunlight. I was like is that really a knock on me? He said absolutely because will all the talent across this county and abroad everything in under the microscope. He sat behind home plate for my next two AAU starts and then 1 for my high school and he came back up and asked if I thought I could play 3rd base or RF and I asked the coach and he slide me to those positions. After I signed with UT he asked if I thought I could add weight over my 1st year of college and fill out to gain velocity. Well long story short I walked onto to University of Tennessee campus 6'6 175lbs and after some hard work and a few questionable supplements I gained 30lbs during my freshman year during one game I was scheduled to pitch against AZ state JV team I was throwing balks with the outfielders and I had a sharp pain in my elbow and sure enough it was a torn UCL and my hopes a dreams were gone with it.

 

The point I'm trying to make is everything is judged on you from 6&7 yr old baseball all the way thru youth ball and then the microscope gets brighter in high school not to mention if you play AAU ball and then coaches or scouts try to mold you into the player they want you to be but most kids body can't handle that day in day out ware and tare. That's why only a select few make it to the show. It takes genetics, ability, drive, and just sheer luck in my opinion.

Informative post from someone who has been through the process. What yers were you doing this?

 

My Great Nephew (age 13) has been going through this scrutiny for a couple of years already. They look at every little thing. The kid can hit 80 mph which the coaches and scouts all love, but he doesn't through completely over the top. They don't like that his natural delivery is 3/4+. He just came back from early spring training in Vero Beach for the Underarmour team, and in February he will be going to the DR to play against the kids training at the MLB complexes.

[cp176]

It translates into more velocity generated from increased leverage, i.e. more raw talent that pitching coaches think they can mold. It doesn't guarantee success more so than a short pitcher. However, it is telling that there are not many starting pitchers on major league rosters under 6'2". In the general population more people are under 6'2" so I think size might have something to do with this. I am sure though that your husband appreciates that you think size doesn't matter.

 

Given the choice between facing a 5'11" or 6'5" pitcher - both throwing at the same speed, standing in that batter's box, I always felt more comfortable with the smaller guy. A tall pitcher can give the impression of literally standing in there right along with you. I think that there is a mental component that can give the taller pitcher the edge here. I know I know "old school traditionalist" way of looking at things. Guilty as charged.

[User Name]

However, ask anyone who actually played baseball for a living, and they'll tell you that Billy Wagner and Pedro Martinez were just as intimidating as Roger Clemens and RJ.

[cp176]

No question about that one - my statement was very generalized. If a pitcher has the nuts to come on in high and tight and he can throw it, I don't think that it makes any difference how tall he is.

[User Name]

Good catch. That's exactly why I used Pedro and Wagner as examples of the smaller guys. They threw heat inside and weren't afraid to hit a guy.

[cp176]

Good catch. That's exactly why I used Pedro and Wagner as examples of the smaller guys. They threw heat inside and weren't afraid to hit a guy.

 

I had a hunch that was where we were going.

[Kimmi]

Scouts like velocity, and the bigger guys have the velocity, and the extra leverage reduces stress on the arm thus helping durability.

 

True, false, and false. Scouts like velocity.

 

There is no evidence that velocity and height have any correlation - that is an assumption made by scouts based on an ingrained false belief. Here is one person's finding from a very simple but effective study:

 

"As one can see from the R-squared of 0.012, there is no relationship between height and fastball velocity."

 

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/11/5/3602072/mlb-fastball-velocity-height-weight-sabermetrics-myths

 

 

 

One of the articles I linked studied the relationship between durability and height. Here is the finding:

 

"These data demonstrate that there is no statistical evidence that shorter pitchers are more or less durable than taller pitchers. The statistics suggest that they are just as prone to each type of injury,they recover at the same rate and they get injured as often. Given that durability is the most often cited concern for baseball executives when drafting shorter pitchers, the evidence in this study that durability does not correlate to a pitcher’s height is highly significant."

 

 

There was an actual physical study done that showed that velocity was generated from mechanics, not from height. I'll have to locate that.

[Kimmi]

It isn't what I believe. I have not said once that big pitchers are better than small pitchers. I have said that the baseball establishment prefers the big guys because they have the raw tools to throw at high velocity. I think that the physics are definitely in favor of the big guys for velocity. That has nothing to do with bias. If there is a bias in play, it is a bias in favor of velocity as opposed to other attributes like command. It is not a bias against short pitchers because they are short.

 

It is a bias against short pitchers because of the false belief that taller pitchers throw harder.

[a700hitter]

True, false, and false. Scouts like velocity.

 

There is no evidence that velocity and height have any correlation - that is an assumption made by scouts based on an ingrained false belief. Here is one person's finding from a very simple but effective study:

 

"As one can see from the R-squared of 0.012, there is no relationship between height and fastball velocity."

 

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2012/11/5/3602072/mlb-fastball-velocity-height-weight-sabermetrics-myths

 

 

 

One of the articles I linked studied the relationship between durability and height. Here is the finding:

 

"These data demonstrate that there is no statistical evidence that shorter pitchers are more or less durable than taller pitchers. The statistics suggest that they are just as prone to each type of injury,they recover at the same rate and they get injured as often. Given that durability is the most often cited concern for baseball executives when drafting shorter pitchers, the evidence in this study that durability does not correlate to a pitcher’s height is highly significant."

 

 

There was an actual physical study done that showed that velocity was generated from mechanics, not from height. I'll have to locate that.

Okay, Kimmi. The whole baseball establishment is wrong about the big boys being a better pool to find high velocity pitchers. I guess that there is a treasure trove of short guys out there just waiting to be tapped. It sounds like quite an opportunity for a forward thinking GM.

[User Name]

It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last.

[User Name]

Illustration time:

 

2015 average fastball velocity leaderboard:

 

1) Yordano Ventura (6'0)

5) Carlos Martinez (6'0)

9) Danny Salazar (6'0)

13) Rubby De La Rosa (6'1)

19) Edinson Volquez (6'0)

 

Honorable mention:

 

Craig Kimbrel (5'11) did not qualify due to being a relief pitcher.

 

Considering that the average height of MLB pitchers is 6'2, the below average crowd is well represented. The idea that size equals velocity is archaic and easily debunked.

[Kimmi]

I'm 6'6" and pitched in college at the University of Tennessee and when I was getting ready to sign the paperwork to commit, a pro scout from the Phillies came up to me and a couple of my buddies while we were taking fly balls in the outfield and asked us to remove our sunglasses so he could see our eye color. He looked and wrote down the other two guys. Then he looked at me and saw I had blue eyes and he said "damn son, that's a shame" I asked why he said that and he explained that a blue eyed boy has a harder time dealing with sunlight. I was like is that really a knock on me? He said absolutely because will all the talent across this county and abroad everything in under the microscope. He sat behind home plate for my next two AAU starts and then 1 for my high school and he came back up and asked if I thought I could play 3rd base or RF and I asked the coach and he slide me to those positions. After I signed with UT he asked if I thought I could add weight over my 1st year of college and fill out to gain velocity. Well long story short I walked onto to University of Tennessee campus 6'6 175lbs and after some hard work and a few questionable supplements I gained 30lbs during my freshman year during one game I was scheduled to pitch against AZ state JV team I was throwing balks with the outfielders and I had a sharp pain in my elbow and sure enough it was a torn UCL and my hopes a dreams were gone with it.

 

The point I'm trying to make is everything is judged on you from 6&7 yr old baseball all the way thru youth ball and then the microscope gets brighter in high school not to mention if you play AAU ball and then coaches or scouts try to mold you into the player they want you to be but most kids body can't handle that day in day out ware and tare. That's why only a select few make it to the show. It takes genetics, ability, drive, and just sheer luck in my opinion.

 

I have no doubt that players are put under the microscope, and that coaches/scouts try to mold you into the player they want you to be. My question is about whether the player they want you to be is due to their biases based on unproven traditional beliefs or actual facts.

 

For instance, the thing about the eye color is very interesting. Intuitively, I would guess that blue-eyed people would be more sensitive to the sunlight. However, is there any evidence that blue-eyed pitchers perform worse than dark-eyed pitchers? I'm guessing not.

 

Note to self: Research that.

[Kimmi]

There was an actual physical study done that showed that velocity was generated from mechanics, not from height. I'll have to locate that.

 

George Washington University professor Dr. Neil Roach argues that physical size and muscle strength are not nearly as important to a pitchers' velocity as is technique.

 

After measuring the amounts of torque generated by the rotation of the players' humeral bones during the cocking phase of their different throwing motions, it was found that pitchers that generated more humeral torsion threw at higher velocities than those who didn't. In addition, when the rotation of the players' humeri was restricted by a brace, they're pitch velocity declined significantly.

 

According to Roach, a player can gain significant velocity on their fastball by solely changing their mechanics. With the help of coaches, pitchers can learn how to speed up their shoulder (and humeral) rotation, generating more torque and therefore more miles per hour on their pitches.

 

http://www.personal.psu.edu/afr3/blogs/siowfa13/2013/12/what-determines-how-hard-someone-can-throw.html

[Kimmi]

Okay, Kimmi. The whole baseball establishment is wrong about the big boys being a better pool to find high velocity pitchers. I guess that there is a treasure trove of short guys out there just waiting to be tapped. It sounds like quite an opportunity for a forward thinking GM.

 

There are so many things that the "whole baseball establishment" has been wrong about.

 

Eno Sarris at Fangraphs also found the same thing:

 

"You usually want your p values smaller than .05, so, in tandem with the poor r-squared numbers, it doesn’t look like there is a relationship between height and fastball velocity and strikeout rate in the big leagues. There *might* be a relationship when it comes to longevity, but the size of the relationship is tiny. Height explains 1% in the variance in career innings pitched totals."

 

As I have said, there seems to be a bias against drafting shorter pitchers. It also seems like they are undervalued in the trade and free agent markets. A forward thinking GM could absolutely capitalize on this. I believe that Billy Beane may already be doing so.

[Kimmi]

It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last.

 

The thing about traditional views is that they are views that have just been accepted as true with no proof whatsoever. The sabermetric guys set out to provide proof, one way or the other, thereby bringing a much better understanding to the game.

 

Unfortunately for traditionalist thinking, much of what they believed about baseball has been proven false.

 

To be fair, the sabermetric community is not always right. As technology improves and more data becomes available, they have sometimes had to correct or tweak their findings. The difference is, they are not willing to accept or dismiss something, just because it seems like it should be that way.

[Kimmi]

Illustration time:

 

2015 average fastball velocity leaderboard:

 

1) Yordano Ventura (6'0)

5) Carlos Martinez (6'0)

9) Danny Salazar (6'0)

13) Rubby De La Rosa (6'1)

19) Edinson Volquez (6'0)

 

Honorable mention:

 

Craig Kimbrel (5'11) did not qualify due to being a relief pitcher.

 

Considering that the average height of MLB pitchers is 6'2, the below average crowd is well represented. The idea that size equals velocity is archaic and easily debunked.

 

And this is why I like you so much.

[a700hitter]

George Washington University professor Dr. Neil Roach argues that physical size and muscle strength are not nearly as important to a pitchers' velocity as is technique.

 

After measuring the amounts of torque generated by the rotation of the players' humeral bones during the cocking phase of their different throwing motions, it was found that pitchers that generated more humeral torsion threw at higher velocities than those who didn't. In addition, when the rotation of the players' humeri was restricted by a brace, they're pitch velocity declined significantly.

 

According to Roach, a player can gain significant velocity on their fastball by solely changing their mechanics. With the help of coaches, pitchers can learn how to speed up their shoulder (and humeral) rotation, generating more torque and therefore more miles per hour on their pitches.

 

http://www.personal.psu.edu/afr3/blogs/siowfa13/2013/12/what-determines-how-hard-someone-can-throw.html

 

No one is saying that humeral rotation isn't important and no one is saying that small guys can't throw hard. When these scouts are wading their way through tens of thousands of kids. Each kid can't be examined precisely. What they do know is that the physics of leverage dictates that a tall guy with the same type of musculature and humeral rotation as a shorter guy will throw at a higher velocity. Height and body type are an advantage due to science, so if it is bias it is based in science. Height doesn't guarantee success and lack of height doesn't prevent success, because the aspects of athleticism need to be present. Being tall and long limbed is still an advantage. The physics of that can't be denied.

 

Some squat guys with short legs are fast, but if you were scouting for wide receivers you wouldnt be looking at guys with squat builds. It is advantage to have long legs and an athletic build. Again it is bias based in science.

[a700hitter]

 

As I have said, there seems to be a bias against drafting shorter pitchers. It also seems like they are undervalued in the trade and free agent markets. A forward thinking GM could absolutely capitalize on this. I believe that Billy Beane may already be doing so.

Of the 20 pitchers on the A's roster, 6 are under 6'2". Edited January 9, 2016 by a700hitter

[cp176]

Fastball velocity leaders of all time possibly -

 

1. Ryan - 6'2"

 

2. Chapman - 6'4"

 

3. Johnson - 6'10"

 

4. Clemens - 6'4"

 

5. Zumaya - 6'3'

 

Proves absolutely nothing unless someone wants to make the point that big guys throw harder than little guys. If you have a point to prove, someone can find some kind of stat to back it up.

[User Name]

CP, that is exactly the point they were trying to make: That big guys throw harder than little guys. The point flew right over your head.

[cp176]

CP, that is exactly the point they were trying to make: That big guys throw harder than little guys. The point flew right over your head.

 

Doesn't surprise me- off day here - just muddling along. Speaking on my behalf though, I'm usually quicker than that.

[User Name]

On that note, I think it's easy to disprove the fact that in pitchers, size equals velocity. What do you think CP?

[cp176]

On that note, I think it's easy to disprove the fact that in pitchers, size equals velocity. What do you think CP?

 

I think you might be on to me - I'll admit it. I was trying to give the bear a little poke but he is so deep in hibernation that he isn't bothering with the likes of me. I could have said what I always told my very best point guards just to piss them off. Little people help big people win games. With respect to you personally trying to prove or disprove anything, I'm not sure that I would bet against you. I might not agree with you but that is a different story.

[Bellhorn04]

Illustration time:

 

2015 average fastball velocity leaderboard:

 

1) Yordano Ventura (6'0)

5) Carlos Martinez (6'0)

9) Danny Salazar (6'0)

13) Rubby De La Rosa (6'1)

19) Edinson Volquez (6'0)

 

Honorable mention:

 

Craig Kimbrel (5'11) did not qualify due to being a relief pitcher.

 

Considering that the average height of MLB pitchers is 6'2, the below average crowd is well represented. The idea that size equals velocity is archaic and easily debunked.

 

Now you've got me interested in this. My question is what type of correlation exists between height and fastball velocity. I just went through FanGraphs list of hardest throwers in 2015 and there do seem to be a lot of guys 6-3 and taller.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=10&season=2015&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

[jung]

I cannot even begin to count the number of times that this happens here at this site and it has happened AGAIN. The point was never from the posts I have read and posted that guys have got to be big in order to throw hard. In fact several including myself have pointed out smaller guys that have reputations for heat.

 

Some have made the point that:

- There appears to be something of a bias toward height from the mound and that the average height of pitchers is greater than it once was. I have not looked at the actual data myself. But I would bet that it has grown.

- Hard throwers abound now as the average height for pitchers seems to be on the rise and greater (ergo...it is easier for a bigger guy to throw hard)

 

It hardly matters whether the data tracks exactly to accuracy or not. The point seemed to be that bigger guys were finding their way to the pro mound more often and that scouts more than anybody seem to be attaching some link between size and the ability to throw hard.

 

I thought that for his time, Greg Maddux one of the great control pitchers of his or any era was average height for a pitcher at 6' listed and probably a little under 6' actual, maybe more like 5'11". Height stats have been played with in pro sports certainly as long as I have been alive and you can't take either the listed height or weight to the bank...EVER. Regardless of actual height, whatever it is, I think he would come in at slightly below average for a starting pitcher today. By the way, while it is cross sport, have you checked out the average height for pro tennis players lately? Have you checked out the average speed of serves lately?

 

Some here just like to argue and have no qualms about changing the point of the discussion so that they can:

a) turn a discussion into something confrontational and into the basis for an argument

come out on top in said argument while having drifted off all by themselves into a place NOBODY ELSE WAS GOING

[cp176]

A couple of things. All things being equal - I did not like facing tall pitchers. They gave the impression (illusionary as it might seem) that they were a helluva lot closer to me than the shorter guys. My teammates tended to feel the same way.

 

Athletes tend to be bigger and probably stronger today. Whether or not they are better is certainly debatable.

 

There seem to be ample supplies of compiled statistics so as to make it possible for people to prove a point that might not even be valid.

[Kimmi]

No one is saying that humeral rotation isn't important and no one is saying that small guys can't throw hard. When these scouts are wading their way through tens of thousands of kids. Each kid can't be examined precisely. What they do know is that the physics of leverage dictates that a tall guy with the same type of musculature and humeral rotation as a shorter guy will throw at a higher velocity. Height and body type are an advantage due to science, so if it is bias it is based in science. Height doesn't guarantee success and lack of height doesn't prevent success, because the aspects of athleticism need to be present. Being tall and long limbed is still an advantage. The physics of that can't be denied.

 

Some squat guys with short legs are fast, but if you were scouting for wide receivers you wouldnt be looking at guys with squat builds. It is advantage to have long legs and an athletic build. Again it is bias based in science.

 

And yet, studies have found no correlation between a pitcher's height and his velocity.

 

They have also found no correlation between a pitcher's height and performance.

 

So you can say as often as you want that height is an advantage to pitchers, but it's simply not true.

[Kimmi]

Of the 20 pitchers on the A's roster, 6 are under 6'2".

 

I didn't say that all of his pitchers were short.

 

But I do believe that he is giving more credit to shorter pitchers than other GMs are.

[User Name]

Now you've got me interested in this. My question is what type of correlation exists between height and fastball velocity. I just went through FanGraphs list of hardest throwers in 2015 and there do seem to be a lot of guys 6-3 and taller.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=10&season=2015&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

You need to take population into account. Average MLB pitcher height is 6'2.

[User Name]

I cannot even begin to count the number of times that this happens here at this site and it has happened AGAIN. The point was never from the posts I have read and posted that guys have got to be big in order to throw hard. In fact several including myself have pointed out smaller guys that have reputations for heat.

 

Some have made the point that:

- There appears to be something of a bias toward height from the mound and that the average height of pitchers is greater than it once was. I have not looked at the actual data myself. But I would bet that it has grown.

- Hard throwers abound now as the average height for pitchers seems to be on the rise and greater (ergo...it is easier for a bigger guy to throw hard)

 

It hardly matters whether the data tracks exactly to accuracy or not. The point seemed to be that bigger guys were finding their way to the pro mound more often and that scouts more than anybody seem to be attaching some link between size and the ability to throw hard.

 

I thought that for his time, Greg Maddux one of the great control pitchers of his or any era was average height for a pitcher at 6' listed and probably a little under 6' actual, maybe more like 5'11". Height stats have been played with in pro sports certainly as long as I have been alive and you can't take either the listed height or weight to the bank...EVER. Regardless of actual height, whatever it is, I think he would come in at slightly below average for a starting pitcher today. By the way, while it is cross sport, have you checked out the average height for pro tennis players lately? Have you checked out the average speed of serves lately?

 

Some here just like to argue and have no qualms about changing the point of the discussion so that they can:

a) turn a discussion into something confrontational and into the basis for an argument

come out on top in said argument while having drifted off all by themselves into a place NOBODY ELSE WAS GOING

 

Some unwarranted self importance and a lot of not-truths here:

 

A) The one who made the specific point was a700, not you in one of your Tolkien sized posts. Have you actually followed the discussion?

 

B ) This is a baseball discussion forum. We come here to discuss baseball. We are having a pleasant and non-confrontational discussion. No one has called anyone any names, and no feelings have been hurt. I want to see a700 confront your attempt at censorship. I will discuss baseball to my heart's content on this baseball discussion forum as much as I want as long as I abide by the rules. Down with censorship.

 

C) If you don't like that we have baseball discussions on this baseball site, you are free to leave.

 

Sorry if it's "confrontational" but you've been all up in people's business ever since you came back. Stick to talking about baseball and let others do their thing. If you don't like someone, the ignore feature is very handy, if not perfect.