The search for an ace

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, the problem for you is that all the Aces are either on contending teams or are FA's. Miami is not dealing Fernandez. That just isn't happening, especially with him coming off TJS. They have tried to extend him, but they'd wait until his value is at its peak to move him. The only other team is Oakland. That's it. The rest are all teams in contention who would want one players

 

You don't know whether Miami will trade Fernandez or not. You don't know if Oakland will trade Gray, and what Beane will want for him.

 

Cleveland needs offense. They might be willing to take Hanley (plus prospects) if the Sox pay a huge chunk of his contract.

[Elktonnick]

My main contention was that a trade could be made that didn't involve Betts or Bogaerts. I didn't include Swihart in that, or any other major league ready player. Buccholz, Hanley, Swihart, JBJ could all be included as part of a package along with prospects.

 

 

Certainly other teams will join in the auction, but from what I've read, other teams don't have as much to give up as the Sox do, even when you exclude Betts and Bogaerts.

 

I can understand why you are backtracking or perhaps you just didn't explain your self well. In any case. a trade for a nbr ! is going to take a Betts,or Bogaerts or a Swihart and MORE to get it done. To think otherwise is a trip to Fantasy Island. It ain't going to happen unless it involves a major league starting position player. Not every GM is as dumb as Cherrington, because it would take one as dumb as him to trade a bonafide nbr 1 starter for anything but a package of players which included one or more starting ML position players.

[Kimmi]

Bellhorn, I am talking about Kimmi's notion that the sox could deal from the farm alone and get an ace. Your deal requires 3 big leaguers to move to Cleveland

 

My notion of dealing from the farm alone depends on what team you're dealing with. I believe that Oakland and Miami (possibly some others) are looking at a rebuild. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that they would not require any major league ready talent back.

 

Again, my main notion was being able to acquire a young, cost-controlled pitcher without having to trade Betts or Bogaerts.

[Kimmi]

I can understand why you are backtracking or perhaps you just didn't explain your self well. In any case. a trade for a nbr ! is going to take a Betts,or Bogaerts or a Swihart and MORE to get it done. To think otherwise is a trip to Fantasy Island. It ain't going to happen unless it involves a major league starting position player. Not every GM is as dumb as Cherrington, because it would take one as dumb as him to trade a bonafide nbr 1 starter for anything but a package of players which included one or more starting ML position players.

 

Not backtracking anything. Go back and read.

[cp176]

You don't know whether Miami will trade Fernandez or not. You don't know if Oakland will trade Gray, and what Beane will want for him.

 

Cleveland needs offense. They might be willing to take Hanley (plus prospects) if the Sox pay a huge chunk of his contract.

 

I read that about Cleveland being potentially willing to help us out with Ramirez, unfortunately I think that I read that suggestion from another forum. Until DD makes a move, it really is all just conjecture. It is fun but just guessing.

[Kimmi]

I read that about Cleveland being potentially willing to help us out with Ramirez, unfortunately I think that I read that suggestion from another forum. Until DD makes a move, it really is all just conjecture. It is fun but just guessing.

 

Of course it's all conjecture. Nobody knows what any other GM is willing to part with and what they are willing to take in return.

[cp176]

Of course it's all conjecture. Nobody knows what any other GM is willing to part with and what they are willing to take in return.

 

That's what I and said.

[cp176]

That's what I and said.

 

 

That's what I said and meant. Just a little typo.

[a700hitter]

Ha. I disagree just to disagree? All I posted to begin with was that Henry had a preference for trading for a #1 rather than signing a big free agent contract. You questioned my source, then said he was just filling space, bla bla bla, and now your're saying that any GM prefers that, so you agreed with me all along. I'm pretty sure that you're the one who disagrees just to disagree.

exactly. I didn't disagree with you. I just asked whether the author had a source or if it was an opinion. If I posted that today was November 9th, you would interpret that as a challenge. Lol! I am in your head.

[Elktonnick]

Not backtracking anything. Go back and read.

 

Whether you are or you aren't, doesn't change the fact that no competent GM is going to give up a nbr 1 pitcher for a bunch of prospects. Your wishful thinking won't change that.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kimmi, you can get a young cost controlled starter without having to give up Betts and Bogaerts. You just wont be able to get a young, cost controlled ace without giving them up or a serious amount of return if they are left undealt. Oakland is your wild card. That being said, everyone is talking about Donaldson. Well, Beane f***ing hated Donaldson. I think part of the deal was spite. Little did Beane know that Toronto would be so good this yr and put Donaldson in such a good situation. Even so, Beane ended up getting a lot of good value in the Donaldson trade. Whenever you trade with Beane when he is dealing away the big talent, you usually get screwed. When he is acquiring the big talent, it is hit or miss. His Samardzija deal looks terrible

[Kimmi]

That's what I said and meant. Just a little typo.

 

I know. I was agreeing with you.

[jacksonianmarch]

Sale has one of the worst negotiated contracts in HISTORY. Assuming the WS GM doesn't have an aneurysm when determining whether to pick up the options, the White Sox have Sale for 4 yrs and $47.15mil. If you deal a young lefty ace who is cost controlled at the rate of a #4 starter for 4 seasons, then you have to get such highway robbery that you MUST re-set your franchise immediately. Any deal for Sale includes Betts or Bogaerts TO START in order to keep the White Sox masses from burning down US Cellular.

 

Jose Fernandez is coming off TJS. His value is a little lower than it should be. Nobody in their right mind will deal him when his value is low. Also, Fernandez is just entering his arb yrs and coming off basically two lost seasons, his cost will be low. If the Marlins move him, it would be next offseason.

[Kimmi]

Whether you are or you aren't, doesn't change the fact that no competent GM is going to give up a nbr 1 pitcher for a bunch of prospects. Your wishful thinking won't change that.

 

You don't know that. Your opinion is just that - your opinion. Just as my opinion is only my opinion.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, you can get a young cost controlled starter without having to give up Betts and Bogaerts. You just wont be able to get a young, cost controlled ace without giving them up or a serious amount of return if they are left undealt. Oakland is your wild card. That being said, everyone is talking about Donaldson. Well, Beane f***ing hated Donaldson. I think part of the deal was spite. Little did Beane know that Toronto would be so good this yr and put Donaldson in such a good situation. Even so, Beane ended up getting a lot of good value in the Donaldson trade. Whenever you trade with Beane when he is dealing away the big talent, you usually get screwed. When he is acquiring the big talent, it is hit or miss. His Samardzija deal looks terrible

 

I don't think Beane got fleeced in the deal, as others do. I agree that he got some good value back. Beane is no dummy, as some like to think he is. My understanding is that he has 4 very good pitching prospects who are about 2-4 years away. He knows his team is likely not going to contend before then, and he would probably be better served by trading Gray and getting young position players in return who will be major league ready in that same time frame.

[Kimmi]

Sale has one of the worst negotiated contracts in HISTORY. Assuming the WS GM doesn't have an aneurysm when determining whether to pick up the options, the White Sox have Sale for 4 yrs and $47.15mil. If you deal a young lefty ace who is cost controlled at the rate of a #4 starter for 4 seasons, then you have to get such highway robbery that you MUST re-set your franchise immediately. Any deal for Sale includes Betts or Bogaerts TO START in order to keep the White Sox masses from burning down US Cellular.

 

Jose Fernandez is coming off TJS. His value is a little lower than it should be. Nobody in their right mind will deal him when his value is low. Also, Fernandez is just entering his arb yrs and coming off basically two lost seasons, his cost will be low. If the Marlins move him, it would be next offseason.

 

I honestly doubt that the White Sox will trade Sale, but you never know unless you try. They supposedly love Swihart. Centering a deal around him could be possible if the other pieces are enough.

 

Last I heard, the Marlins were a mess. I wouldn't put it past them to deal anyone.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kimmi, the White Sox would deal Sale if they got Swihart plus Bogaerts or something else. It would have to be so insanely in their favor that they couldn't say no. Swihart plus a bunch of prospects doesn't do that. Blake is a good prospect, but he got exposed defensively, which may have soured his return currently. The Marlins are a mess, per se, but they are also run by a businessman. You don't sell your best commodity when the price is at its lowest

[cp176]

Sale has one of the worst negotiated contracts in HISTORY. Assuming the WS GM doesn't have an aneurysm when determining whether to pick up the options, the White Sox have Sale for 4 yrs and $47.15mil. If you deal a young lefty ace who is cost controlled at the rate of a #4 starter for 4 seasons, then you have to get such highway robbery that you MUST re-set your franchise immediately. Any deal for Sale includes Betts or Bogaerts TO START in order to keep the White Sox masses from burning down US Cellular.

 

Jose Fernandez is coming off TJS. His value is a little lower than it should be. Nobody in their right mind will deal him when his value is low. Also, Fernandez is just entering his arb yrs and coming off basically two lost seasons, his cost will be low. If the Marlins move him, it would be next offseason.

 

You may be right with all of your conjecture. You might not be. I will say this though. Much if not most of what happens during the off season will have to do with the wants and needs of individual teams. The Red Sox have a clear path to add two starters as well as upgrade their bullpen via trade as well as free agency. They have the chips to deal. Sadly for a couple of my favorites, there isn't a player on the team who could not be replaced. I'm sure that DD has already been busy. He builds that pitching staff - I'll support his moves.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Kimmi, the White Sox would deal Sale if they got Swihart plus Bogaerts or something else. It would have to be so insanely in their favor that they couldn't say no. Swihart plus a bunch of prospects doesn't do that. Blake is a good prospect, but he got exposed defensively, which may have soured his return currently. The Marlins are a mess, per se, but they are also run by a businessman. You don't sell your best commodity when the price is at its lowest

 

Not true. The ChiSox would be much closer to contending if they got a package involving, say, Swihart, Devers, Margot, Owens, Shaw (3B), and Marrero. They are extremely shallow at both 3B and C with no help in sight. Getting those positions filled for now (Shaw at 3B, Devers future), as well as getting a potential mid rotation arm, elite CF, and a utility player could easily get the deal done. And that only takes 1 guy from the Sox starting nine.

[jacksonianmarch]

It takes the hardest thing to develop in baseball out of the White Sox rotation. It would be a hard sell to the fan base to get guys who are aways off

[Elktonnick]

You don't know that. Your opinion is just that - your opinion. Just as my opinion is only my opinion.

 

My opinion isn't a fantasy yours is.

[cp176]

It takes the hardest thing to develop in baseball out of the White Sox rotation. It would be a hard sell to the fan base to get guys who are aways off

 

Anything is possible I would say after what we bought as a fan base last year.

[jacksonianmarch]

You guys dealt Lester in the final year of his deal and basically got Porcello for last season, who was awful. This subsequently added to the case for your GM to be removed. Imagine if the CWS did the same thing, dealt Sale for a bunch of prospects and they had a bad year on the farm or fizzled out? The GM would be s*** canned. GM's like their job. If they're going to move a true blue ace who is 26 and has a sweet 4 yr deal, they better get something tangible

[jacksonianmarch]

Which is why I think we might have something here in NY. We have a dominant, proven left closer on a sweet 3 yr deal and a perennial 3 win outfielder capable of playing a solid CF who is reasonably under contract for 2 more seasons. I actually think we line up well with the Mets, especially if we add in Refsnyder, who could replace Murphy. That would basically force us to sign Zobrist to play 2b

[SoxFanForsyth]

You guys dealt Lester in the final year of his deal and basically got Porcello for last season, who was awful. This subsequently added to the case for your GM to be removed. Imagine if the CWS did the same thing, dealt Sale for a bunch of prospects and they had a bad year on the farm or fizzled out? The GM would be s*** canned. GM's like their job. If they're going to move a true blue ace who is 26 and has a sweet 4 yr deal, they better get something tangible

 

Not at all true. That team won 76 games last year, has 4 lefties in their rotation, has gaping holes at both C and 3B with no end in sight, and their next SS played a half season in AA and that's as high as he got.

 

Let's not act like they're close to contention. They need a lot of help at a lot of positions. Dealing Sale would get them much closer to contention than keeping him, plain and simple.

[Meh]

Sale has one of the worst negotiated contracts in HISTORY. Assuming the WS GM doesn't have an aneurysm when determining whether to pick up the options, the White Sox have Sale for 4 yrs and $47.15mil. If you deal a young lefty ace who is cost controlled at the rate of a #4 starter for 4 seasons, then you have to get such highway robbery that you MUST re-set your franchise immediately. Any deal for Sale includes Betts or Bogaerts TO START in order to keep the White Sox masses from burning down US Cellular.

 

Jose Fernandez is coming off TJS. His value is a little lower than it should be. Nobody in their right mind will deal him when his value is low. Also, Fernandez is just entering his arb yrs and coming off basically two lost seasons, his cost will be low. If the Marlins move him, it would be next offseason.

 

Anything can happen, dude. Red Sox gave Ruth away. White Sox could give Sale away too, or the Nationals could give away Harper. Anything can happen at any time. I do agree though if the white sox have any sort of hey we are a baseball team, they would ask for Betts, plus Yoan Moancada, plus two of the Sox pitchers like Erod, Owens, Rodriguez. and maybe still ask for another prospect.

[Bellhorn04]

Anything can happen, dude. Red Sox gave Ruth away. White Sox could give Sale away too, or the Nationals could give away Harper. Anything can happen at any time. I do agree though if the white sox have any sort of hey we are a baseball team, they would ask for Betts, plus Yoan Moancada, plus two of the Sox pitchers like Erod, Owens, Rodriguez. and maybe still ask for another prospect.

 

That would be a tad much.

[Kimmi]

Not true. The ChiSox would be much closer to contending if they got a package involving, say, Swihart, Devers, Margot, Owens, Shaw (3B), and Marrero. They are extremely shallow at both 3B and C with no help in sight. Getting those positions filled for now (Shaw at 3B, Devers future), as well as getting a potential mid rotation arm, elite CF, and a utility player could easily get the deal done. And that only takes 1 guy from the Sox starting nine.

 

Finally, a voice of reason.

[Kimmi]

You guys dealt Lester in the final year of his deal and basically got Porcello for last season, who was awful. This subsequently added to the case for your GM to be removed. Imagine if the CWS did the same thing, dealt Sale for a bunch of prospects and they had a bad year on the farm or fizzled out? The GM would be s*** canned. GM's like their job. If they're going to move a true blue ace who is 26 and has a sweet 4 yr deal, they better get something tangible

 

It depends on what the goals of the White Sox are. If they're trying to contend next season, then trading Sale probably wouldn't make sense. If they're trying to reset and rebuild, then trading him for several top level prospects would make all the sense in the world.

 

Cherington did not have the luxury of taking 3-4 years to rebuild the team, without also trying to keep the team in contention every year while doing so. He had to also make moves for players who could keep the team competitive.

 

People are so hung up on the "3 last place finishes in 4 years" thing (which I can understand being upset about) that they can't see what a truly remarkable job Cherington did with the farm system. And as I keep saying, he managed to win a championship while doing so.

[mvp 78]

We can say the farm system is remarkable now, but it's based on projections. Let's see how the guys develop over the next few years and judge Ben by production, not projections.