The search for an ace

[GomesBeard]

I've always been surprised at Grienke's success in LA because of his social disorder.

 

I bet he stays there.

 

I'm not. The fans show up late to the games and don't really seem to care whether the team wins or loses... Can you imagine the outcry in Boston if the team didn't win, with that payroll... Oh, wait...

[cp176]

I would be wary of signing Greinke. There is no place like Boston or NY when it comes to the scrutiny and pressure of the media and fans. I can't see someone with a social anxiety disorder thriving in this kind of atmosphere.

 

This is a very true statement. Very very sad but true. Some people just don't seem able to play in the environments that we have created. The intelligent ones, who have a place somewhere else, never come here.

[sk7326]

I would be wary of signing Greinke. There is no place like Boston or NY when it comes to the scrutiny and pressure of the media and fans. I can't see someone with a social anxiety disorder thriving in this kind of atmosphere.

 

It's a treatable illness.

[GomesBeard]

This is a very true statement. Very very sad but true. Some people just don't seem able to play in the environments that we have created. The intelligent ones, who have a place somewhere else, never come here.

 

I don't think it's an intelligence test. Some guys just aren't wired for an intense, life-or-death type of situation. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I haven't heard of anyone turning down Sox $$$ because 'it's too hard to play there'....

[a700hitter]

I don't think it's an intelligence test. Some guys just aren't wired for an intense, life-or-death type of situation. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. I haven't heard of anyone turning down Sox $$$ because 'it's too hard to play there'....

There is a lot more scrutiny in Boston, and that creates a degree of aggravation for players. I think the added aggravation has a price tag and that the Red Sox pay a premium because of it. Is it too much for a player to handle? I would say that is not true in most cases, especially for established star pitchers. They are used to being the man in the spotlight with the game in their hands. Greinke has been in All Star games and post seasons and performed well. He is used to the spotlight. Will he want to cope with the off field nonsense? Hopefully, we can put a reasonable price on that. He will be making so much money that we might not be able to pay him enough to deal with the extracurricular nonsense. He is the best pitcher available. Edited October 29, 2015 by a700hitter

[Palodios]

It might be worth looking into pricing out insurance policies on Cueto's elbow, and making him a strong consideration. If they spend less than 30 million on an insurance policy, he might end up being the better value.

 

The two hitter last night definitely made me give him more thought.

[Bellhorn04]

It might be worth looking into pricing out insurance policies on Cueto's elbow, and making him a strong consideration. If they spend less than 30 million on an insurance policy, he might end up being the better value.

 

The two hitter last night definitely made me give him more thought.

 

Ah yes, the Recency Effect. It's hard not to be influenced by what just happened.

[Palodios]

Ah yes, the Recency Effect. It's hard not to be influenced by what just happened.

 

I am looking at his 2.70 ERA since 2011 as well. He has been the second best pitcher in the majors over that span. If he can pitch well in the playoffs, and we can insure the elbow, what red flags are left for Cueto?

Edited October 29, 2015 by Palodios

[Bellhorn04]

I am looking at his 2.70 ERA since 2011 as well. He has been the second best pitcher in the majors over that span. If he can pitch well in the playoffs, and we can insure the elbow, what red flags are left for Cueto?

 

The only red flags I see are his overall numbers since he moved to KC. Some very rocky outings that puffed up his ERA.

 

That and his reported asking price of 8 years, 240 million.

 

But it's all in the hands of Dombro and JH.

[jacksonianmarch]

He two hit a Mets lineup that isn't exactly a world beater. Cueto is gonna get a big deal. And I think whatever team gives him that will be regretting it, possibly in year 1.

[jacksonianmarch]

Price is the gem of the market. Yes, he's had October struggles. But look at how Toronto used him in the playoffs. The guy was around the 250IP mark for the year when Gibbons throws him out there expecting an 8IP performance. In all 3 starts in the postseason, he allowed runs in the 7th. Through 3 starts, he'd allowed 6 runs in his first 6 innings of his 3 starts total. That's a pretty sweet 3.00ERA. What it comes down to is that if you're gonna ride him like a horse April through Sept, you're going to need to watch him after 6IP in October. And that shouldn't even be a question. In the playoffs, your starter could be throwing a perfect game, and you should have someone warming in the 6th

[Bellhorn04]

Price is the gem of the market. Yes, he's had October struggles. But look at how Toronto used him in the playoffs. The guy was around the 250IP mark for the year when Gibbons throws him out there expecting an 8IP performance. In all 3 starts in the postseason, he allowed runs in the 7th. Through 3 starts, he'd allowed 6 runs in his first 6 innings of his 3 starts total. That's a pretty sweet 3.00ERA. What it comes down to is that if you're gonna ride him like a horse April through Sept, you're going to need to watch him after 6IP in October. And that shouldn't even be a question. In the playoffs, your starter could be throwing a perfect game, and you should have someone warming in the 6th

 

Agreed.

[Behindenemylines]

Greinke and Cueto I would stay clear of. One would not do well under the scrutiny of the Boston Press and fandom, and the other did not pitch well against AL hitters the second half of the season and had some injury issues. Price would be the first choice, and Zimmermann probably would be a second option if the Price numbers get crazy. Trading for an ace is hard to say, we don't know who is on the market yet. If Sale was made available you would have to make a run at him.

[jacksonianmarch]

Zimmerman costs you a pick

[Palodios]

I doubt the Red Sox spend their 12th overall pick on Zimmermann. He's young, consistent, and healthy, but that's a big talent cost plus the 150 million dollar cost.

[a700hitter]

I doubt the Red Sox spend their 12th overall pick on Zimmermann. He's young, consistent, and healthy, but that's a big talent cost plus the 150 million dollar cost.

and he always seems to blow up around the 5th inning

[jacksonianmarch]

So Harvey gave up 3ER through 6IP in game 1 without his fastball. With all the extra rest and babying BS, he hasn't had it all. This is his first start on regular rest in awhile and he's turning the best lineup in baseball (by BA) look silly. And this is his first yr back from TJS. He is a top tier ace at a young age who should be even better next year. If you have the option to get him, you do it.

[dupree]

So Harvey gave up 3ER through 6IP in game 1 without his fastball. With all the extra rest and babying BS, he hasn't had it all. This is his first start on regular rest in awhile and he's turning the best lineup in baseball (by BA) look silly. And this is his first yr back from TJS. He is a top tier ace at a young age who should be even better next year. If you have the option to get him, you do it.

Agreed.

I'm currently watching this Game 5 and the more and more he pitches the more I'd love to see him in Boston as our ace.

I'd rather have him than Price. No matter the players required to get him and the potential departure in FA in years to come with him being a Boras client and the scare on his elbow i'd want him. If he's in dangled by the Mets I'd hope the FO jumps on a deal.

[jacksonianmarch]

Harvey talked Collins into keeping him in and it looks like it was a bad decision

[a700hitter]

Harvey talked Collins into keeping him in and it looks like it was a bad decision

i am at the game. Harvey was over throwing to Cain on the walk. He was too amped. And he should have been removed after the walk.

[Palodios]

Familia had an awful series. I'd trust Harvey with 100 pitches over him. I probably would have left Pedro in in 2003 too, though.

[jacksonianmarch]

You could tell he was finished in the 8th. He hung a couple sliders out of the zone and left a change up in the zone when he was trying to bounce it. His command waned in the 8th, so that should have been the move. Collins wanted to bench him. He listened to the tired player over the smart decision and he was burned. Regardless, there was no way the Mets were winning both in KC

[a700hitter]

Familia had an awful series. I'd trust Harvey with 100 pitches over him. I probably would have left Pedro in in 2003 too, though.

Familia blew game 1 on his own. That was all on him. In his last 2 blown saves, he was credited with a blown save before he even gave up a hit. Collins set him up for failure by bringing him in with the tying run on second base with one out in the 8th inning in game 4 and with no one out in the 9th inning in game 5. He would have been just fine to start off the inning in the 9th. He pitched a great clean inning in the 10th. He pitched 2 hitless innings in game 5 and got the blown save,

[sk7326]

Familia had an awful series. I'd trust Harvey with 100 pitches over him. I probably would have left Pedro in in 2003 too, though.

 

Collins bullpen deployment was dreadful all series. Using Familia in a 6 run game for mop up, then the next night bringing him for a 5 out save, and then not using him in the situation where he was most successful. That was Grady-esque.

 

Considering I have seen the Red Sox - down 3-2 in consecutive years come basically 5 outs away from winning 4 straight do or die games in Yankee stadium (with a one legged pitcher and John Burkett's entrails, and a guy on 2 days rest as 3 of the 4 starters) - the hypothesizing about the Mets in KC is foolish.

[Palodios]

Familia blew game 1 on his own. That was all on him. In his last 2 blown saves, he was credited with a blown save before he even gave up a hit. Collins set him up for failure by bringing him in with the tying run on second base with one out in the 8th inning in game 4 and with no one out in the 9th inning in game 5. He would have been just fine to start off the inning in the 9th. He pitched a great clean inning in the 10th. He pitched 2 hitless innings in game 5 and got the blown save,

 

In game 4, didn't he allow the hit which tied up the game?

 

3 blown saves in a World Series by a closer is pretty brutal. Bullpens and bullpen management were the clear difference maker in this series.

[a700hitter]

In game 4, didn't he allow the hit which tied up the game?

 

.

No, he did not.

[sk7326]

Familia had an awful series. I'd trust Harvey with 100 pitches over him. I probably would have left Pedro in in 2003 too, though.

 

Familia was also lights out the entire rest of the postseason. Just giving the Royals a 4th look at a pitcher with the season on the line was dicey. It wasn't as bad as Grady in 2003, or Bob Melvin (a good manager too!) not moving a muscle as Jon Lester imploded in the WC game last year, but it was bad. Collins was suboptimal all series.

[Bellhorn04]

3 blown saves in a World Series by a closer is pretty brutal.

 

The blown save stat can be ridiculous sometimes though. You can be brought in with the bases loaded and no outs and give up a run on a ground ball and get charged with a blown save.

[sk7326]

Also the pitch count here did not matter as much as the 4th time through the order. You see evidence that the 4th (and sometimes 3rd) look at a pitcher makes a significant difference (the familiarity and fatigue intersect).

[Dojji]

The blown save stat can be ridiculous sometimes though. You can be brought in with the bases loaded and no outs and give up a run on a ground ball and get charged with a blown save.

Yeah but that's not what happened to Familia any of these times.

 

The fact is that the Royals were an excellent team for putting bat on ball, and forcing the mediocre Mets infield defense to make plays by continuously making small contact and hustling, kept paying off in spades for the Royals.

 

The only blown save that was all Familia was Game 1, Gordon's solo shot was the only "true outcome" that lost the Mets a lead. The rest was all on their infield (and occasionally outfield) D

Edited November 3, 2015 by Dojji