2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[jacksonianmarch]

Mark Appel was added to the Ken Giles trade. The Kimbrel deal seems much more palatable in comparison and the Carson Smith deal feels like a steal in comparison.

 

Giles was pretty lights out as a closer. He was Kimbrel-esque if you will. The only unpalatable part of the Kimbrel deal in terms of what comes with him is the AAV. That being said, Margot and Guerra were both top 100 guys, so it isn't like they gave away a pile of beans. That being said, the Stros must feel they have a window here and are willing to mortgage the future on it, even though technically they acquired a guy who should have a long run as he's only 25. What we are proving here is that young, pre arb, top of the rotation and back of the bullpen pieces are worth an assload in terms of acquisition cost. Either you move a known commodity (Miley) or you are moving a gigantic haul of could be's. I think the days of 1 top prospect and a bunch of B's and C's are over. Those deals turned out to be steals far too often in the favor of the veteran's acquiring team. Now, young pre arb top talent is hurting significantly. With that being said, Harvey's and Fernandez' prices just shot through the roof. Must include blood of 72 virgins and the first born of all the execs to come to the table.

[Kimmi]

Spud, his team is LOADED with talented players in both the bigs and the minors. And even though Heyward is a long term deal, there is almost no chance he doesn't opt out in 3 seasons, so in effect, it is a 3 yr deal. The only real long term commitment is Lester

 

Theo is the man. Ben was getting to be the man. Sox fans are just not patient enough to let things play out and give him a chance.

[Kimmi]

Mark Appel was added to the Ken Giles trade. The Kimbrel deal seems much more palatable in comparison and the Carson Smith deal feels like a steal in comparison.

 

The prospect packages for Kimbrel and Giles were comparable, though I think Kimbrel's was a little more. The main difference is that Giles is cost controlled for, I believe, 5 more years. He isn't even arb eligible for 2 more years. We are paying Kimbrel an AAV of $12 mil for 2 years.

 

That said, my biggest fear/criticism of the Kimbrel deal was that giving up those prospects for a reliever would close the door on our ability to trade for a starter without gutting the farm, and that there was no guarantee that Price or any other free agent starter would want to sign with Boston. We got our #1 and our farm system is still intact, so from that standpoint, the Kimbrel deal is more palatable.

[a700hitter]

Theo is the man. Ben was getting to be the man. Sox fans are just not patient enough to let things play out and give him a chance.

 

I must have missed the mass protests on Yawkey Way demanding Ben's head. Despite the horrible teams that he rolled out there in the last 2 years, the fans packed Fenway Park game after game and there was very little booing. No, it was not the fans that fired him. The owners responsible for a billion dollar franchise realized that Ben was over his head running the team. Saying that the fans were not patient enough is just ridiculous. Cub attendance decreased during Theo' s first 3 years from 2011. Red Sox attendance has held very steady.

[Bellhorn04]

Theo is the man. Ben was getting to be the man. Sox fans are just not patient enough to let things play out and give him a chance.

 

I don't think it's fair to pin Ben's demise on the impatience of Sox fans.

 

I think any GM who leads one of the highest payroll teams in the sport to consecutive last place finishes is on very shaky ground. I think Cashman would be gone under those circumstances too.

 

Maybe the real source of impatience here was the ownership. They are the ones who authorize all those big cheques. They don't like it when they spend that much on the payroll and they see the team out of contention early and the fans losing interest. No matter how good of a fan you are, there has been a lot of Sox baseball over the last two years that was not worth watching. And Sox fans pay the highest ticket prices in the game.

[Palodios]

I'm actually surprised Cashman is still in New York. One playoff game in 3 years used to be unacceptable there.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm actually surprised Cashman is still in New York. One playoff game in 3 years used to be unacceptable there.

 

True. And I think the reason is that Hal Steinbrenner is very different from his father and has bought into the idea of having some patience and developing some players from within again.

[Kimmi]

I must have missed the mass protests on Yawkey Way demanding Ben's head. Despite the horrible teams that he rolled out there in the last 2 years, the fans packed Fenway Park game after game and there was very little booing. No, it was not the fans that fired him. The owners responsible for a billion dollar franchise realized that Ben was over his head running the team. Saying that the fans were not patient enough is just ridiculous. Cub attendance decreased during Theo' s first 3 years from 2011. Red Sox attendance has held very steady.

 

I think (I have no proof) that many of the fans that are filling up Fenway recently are more of the "touristy" type of fans, not your life long hardcore fans. Regardless, tv ratings were down the second half of the season, and I'm guessing merchandise sales were also down.

 

Seriously, all you have to do is read a lot of the posts on this and other forums. A good percentage of posters made comments about not watching as many games or having better things to do, etc.

 

It's no secret that many fans lose interest when the team does not perform well.

[Spudboy]

I think (I have no proof) that many of the fans that are filling up Fenway recently are more of the "touristy" type of fans, not your life long hardcore fans. Regardless, tv ratings were down the second half of the season, and I'm guessing merchandise sales were also down.

 

Seriously, all you have to do is read a lot of the posts on this and other forums. A good percentage of posters made comments about not watching as many games or having better things to do, etc.

It's no secret that many fans lose interest when the team does not perform well.

 

 

This must be true. However there remains a core of baseball addicts like us that watch no matter. Even when the Sox are losing I remain hopeful that what I am watching leads to further development of talent and the establishment of the winning culture.

[Kimmi]

I don't think it's fair to pin Ben's demise on the impatience of Sox fans.

 

I think any GM who leads one of the highest payroll teams in the sport to consecutive last place finishes is on very shaky ground. I think Cashman would be gone under those circumstances too.

 

Maybe the real source of impatience here was the ownership. They are the ones who authorize all those big cheques. They don't like it when they spend that much on the payroll and they see the team out of contention early and the fans losing interest. No matter how good of a fan you are, there has been a lot of Sox baseball over the last two years that was not worth watching. And Sox fans pay the highest ticket prices in the game.

 

My statement was a bit of an overstatement and oversimplification, but I think there is some truth to it.

 

Ownership has to know how unsatisfied the fans have been with the past two seasons, and I think that their decisions are made in part to put and keep fans in the seats. I think the "firing" of Ben had more to do with the opportunity to hire Dombrowski, whom they knew would make a bold splash, than it did with the desire to get rid of Ben. It leads me to wonder if Ben would still have his job if Dombrowski had not been let go by Detroit.

[Kimmi]

This must be true. However there remains a core of baseball addicts like us that watch no matter. Even when the Sox are losing I remain hopeful that what I am watching leads to further development of talent and the establishment of the winning culture.

 

I'm like you. Even when the Sox are out of it, I can find something to enjoy in watching them play. Besides that, what else am I going to do?

[a700hitter]

My statement was a bit of an overstatement and oversimplification, but I think there is some truth to it.

 

Ownership has to know how unsatisfied the fans have been with the past two seasons, and I think that their decisions are made in part to put and keep fans in the seats. I think the "firing" of Ben had more to do with the opportunity to hire Dombrowski, whom they knew would make a bold splash, than it did with the desire to get rid of Ben. It leads me to wonder if Ben would still have his job if Dombrowski had not been let go by Detroit.

It was a huge overstatement and oversimplification. Ben was able to remain at the helm for 3 last place finishes precisely because the Red Sox attendance and revenue was not being impacted to any great extent. As I stated many times before, merchandise revenue gets shared 30 ways. As long as MLB merchandise sales are up, the Red Sox' share increases regardless of whether sales of Red Sox merchandise goes down.

 

It is never easy to fire a good person like Ben. Ben got fired because he was doing a lousy job. He forced their hand. You just can't deal with the fact that his firing was the result of his own performance and nothing else.

[User Name]

Except for the simple (and very important) fact that Ben Cherington was not fired. Let's at least get our facts straight.

[Elktonnick]

It was a huge overstatement and oversimplification. Ben was able to remain at the helm for 3 last place finishes precisely because the Red Sox attendance and revenue was not being impacted to any great extent. As I stated many times before, merchandise revenue gets shared 30 ways. As long as MLB merchandise sales are up, the Red Sox' share increases regardless of whether sales of Red Sox merchandise goes down.

 

It is never easy to fire a good person like Ben. Ben got fired because he was doing a lousy job. He forced their hand. You just can't deal with the fact that his firing was the result of his own performance and nothing else.

 

Fobes reported that NESN lost a third of its viewers in 2014 per game from the year before. I don't have the 2015 stats but clearly viewership didn't go up. As much as I didn't want Orsillo to get the axe it is clear that the decline in viewership didn't help his cause. In the same vien, NESN ratings are probably a bigger factor than ballpark attendanc in Henry's calculus. Ben's fate was sealed by his weak attempts to construct a team which was killing NESN's ratings hence the reason for his being forced out.

[cp176]

Not to change the subject for sure because even though he wasn't technically fired, no way was Ben going to run the show but is there any concievable chance that Cueto could be coming to Boston.? Something I would really like to see. The potential of that rotation would look pretty good. Good to hear of his desire to come to here.

[a700hitter]

Fobes reported that NESN lost a third of its viewers in 2014 per game from the year before. I don't have the 2015 stats but clearly viewership didn't go up. As much as I didn't want Orsillo to get the axe it is clear that the decline in viewership didn't help his cause. In the same vien, NESN ratings are probably a bigger factor than ballpark attendanc in Henry's calculus. Ben's fate was sealed by his weak attempts to construct a team which was killing NESN's ratings hence the reason for his being forced out.

NESN viewership I think has been a concern going back to 2010 or so.

[a700hitter]

Not to change the subject for sure because even though he wasn't technically fired, no way was Ben going to run the show but is there any concievable chance that Cueto could be coming to Boston.? Something I would really like to see. The potential of that rotation would look pretty good. Good to hear of his desire to come to here.

I was thinking the same thing about Cueto. I don't know if DD has hi on his radar, but that would be a pretty strong staff if he joined the Red Sox.

[Elktonnick]

NESN viewership I think has been a concern going back to 2010 or so.

 

They climbed only to collapse again in 2014.

[Elktonnick]

NESN viewership I think has been a concern going back to 2010 or so.

 

They climbed only to collapse again in 2014.

[cp176]

I was thinking the same thing about Cueto. I don't know if DD has hi on his radar, but that would be a pretty strong staff if he joined the Red Sox.

 

I bet that they are talking. We know how much DD loves a strong rotation. I don't mean one that we think might be strong. One that really looks strong based on past performances. He knows that they still look a little light.

[Northern Star]

Arizona is taking quite a beating over how much they gave up for Miller. Keith Law called the cost 'comically high'. A guy at FanGraphs said it was the worst trade in history. I guess it shows the astronomical price of pitching.

 

How do you give up the season's #1 overall pick? For anything other than the best player in the game? Miller has never pitched sub 3.00 ERA and only over 200 IP once. That is a huge overpay. And the Dbacks GM sounds like an idiot sitting there saying "three guys don't make our future." The #1 overall pick doesn't make your future? What the f*** did you draft him for then?

[jacksonianmarch]

I'm actually surprised Cashman is still in New York. One playoff game in 3 years used to be unacceptable there.

 

Hal saw what happened when he meddled. It was rumored that Cashman wanted to let ARod walk, and Hal/Levine came out and went over his head. The last deal over Cash's head was Rafael Soriano. At the last contract negotiation, Cashman wrested more control and has been remaking the team. Levine basically admitted the Yankees are in a rebuilding phase of sorts, which we are. I think everyone saw that when we shot our load in 2009 and added CC and Tex and then re-upped CC that the end of the contracts were going to be a painful period, especially with ARoid still on the books. I also think the MOST telling part of our "rebuild" was our inaction at the deadline. We had a playoff team that needed some assistance and we sat there and watched while patching holes from within. 15 yrs ago, Price finishes the yr as a Yankee and Severino is pitching in Detroit

[Palodios]

How do you give up the season's #1 overall pick? For anything other than the best player in the game? Miller has never pitched sub 3.00 ERA and only over 200 IP once. That is a huge overpay. And the Dbacks GM sounds like an idiot sitting there saying "three guys don't make our future." The #1 overall pick doesn't make your future? What the f*** did you draft him for then?

 

I can't imagine Arizona's scouts are happy. Put all that work into what you believe is a franchise altering pick, and he ends up somewhere else six months later.

 

Especially only a year after the Red Sox showed that the value for a first overall could be worth up to 75 million.

[Bellhorn04]

Except for the simple (and very important) fact that Ben Cherington was not fired. Let's at least get our facts straight.

 

It's a fact, but I'm not sure how important it is. His position in the organization was going to be significantly changed, so much so that he resigned immediately.

[jacksonianmarch]

Arizona is all in. You go out and throw the highest AAV ever at someone who turns 33 prior to the season getting going and you're defining your window. They are trying to take advantage of a Dodgers team that is aging and has seen a blip in their development with Puig and Peterson. You take their 1A from them as well and add in your own SP depth and you have a team capable of winning it all. Miller is a good pitcher. My concern with him is that he puts it all together in Atlanta. Mazzone was great, but it wasn't just him who remade all the pitchers in Atlanta. He sucked in Baltimore, so I'm thinking it's more a system than a single guy. But it's almost as if the guys stop being good once they stop suckling on the teet

[Hitch]

Not to change the subject for sure because even though he wasn't technically fired, no way was Ben going to run the show but is there any concievable chance that Cueto could be coming to Boston.? Something I would really like to see. The potential of that rotation would look pretty good. Good to hear of his desire to come to here.

 

Would be a very impressive rotation backed up by an excellent bullpen all of a sudden. I would love to see it happen. We'd need to drop some payroll though and get rid of either Hanley or Pablo. Neither of which I think are all that likely to happen.

 

I hope they can pull it off, but I'm doubtful.

[cp176]

Would be a very impressive rotation backed up by an excellent bullpen all of a sudden. I would love to see it happen. We'd need to drop some payroll though and get rid of either Hanley or Pablo. Neither of which I think are all that likely to happen.

 

I hope they can pull it off, but I'm doubtful.

 

I know that it is a little bit of a dream. Sure would look good though. Although he was signed with the best intentions, the Ramirez contract put us in a hole.

[SeanJohn93]

Just posted an article on 5 Holiday Wishes for the Red Sox, let me know what you guys think. I hope everyone has a nice holiday as well.

[a700hitter]

It's a fact, but I'm not sure how important it is. His position in the organization was going to be significantly changed, so much so that he resigned immediately.

As a tax/benefits attorney for more than 30 years, a significant diminution of responsibilities and change of function to which Ben would have been subject would have been enough to trigger a Severance package in many organizations. This is done to recognize that the person had been fired even though employment was not terminated.

 

In the words of Casey Stengel at a Press Conference after he resigned as manager of the NY Yankees, "Heck, I didn't resign. I was fired." That's the reality.

[User Name]

That doesn't matter one iota. The fact is, that they didn't fire him. The POBO/GM model is making the rounds at MLB because a lot of teams recognize that a team with a guy at the top signing off on most major operational moves and a guy below with knowledge of draft/player development is better than concentrating all of the responsibility on the GM.

 

And still, facts are facts, and the fact is that BC was not fired. People can make their tinfoil hat stories up as much as they want, but that's what happened.