2015 Red Sox Trade Deadline Thread

[a700hitter]

Then where do all of the young aces come from? Did they just appear one day on a Major League roster, complete with a list of unimpeachable references and two years of solid Major League experience?

 

They get drafted, but we have a really bad track record in that area. Really bad. We need to get some scouts that know something about pitching.

[a700hitter]

Report out that Blue Jays were close to obtaining Carrasco. The Sox have a strong farm I'd think they could snag him since the Guardians are listening then Sox should pounce.

 

He's not that great and he's not that young. Not worth selling the farm for imo.

[Kimmi]

That is interesting as Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, and John Smoltz are inducted into the Hall of Fame. All three were traded as unproven young pitchers by teams that obviously undervalued their potential. That said, how do you know Eduardo Rodriguez is not the guy to build a rotation around?

 

Would you prefer the Sox throw long term mega bucks at a proven top of the rotation guy like Johan Santana, Justin Verlander, Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, or CC Sabathia? Do they gamble on the next level like Ubaldo Jimenez, C.J.Wilson, Ricky Nolasco, Josh Beckett, Ian Kennedy, or R.A. Dickey? In my opinion, it is not wise to pay big dollars, long term for past performance.

 

The best way is probably to try to draft a young ace like Keuchel, deGrom, or Garret Cole. Or trade for a young unproven Archer, Kluber, Arrieta, Shelby Miller...or Eduardo Rodriguez.

 

Spitball, you really need to post more often. You are such a refreshing voice of reason.

[Kimmi]

isn't Verlander's yearly salary something like mid 20 mil until 2021....... that s*** is scary....

 

I am not and have never been a fan of huge contracts. However, whenever the Sox sign a player to a big contract, I am thrilled to have that player on the team. For instance, if the Sox were to sign Cueto or Price this off season, I would be thrilled, even though I'm sure I would not be a fan of the contract. You just have to realize that said contract is likely to handcuff the team financially a few years down the road. From my experience, it seems to me that the people who criticize the FO the most for not signing these types of guys are the same people who will criticize the FO for signing such a "stupid" contract when the contract goes bad. You can't have it both ways. (I don't mean you, personally.)

[a700hitter]

I am not and have never been a fan of huge contracts. However, whenever the Sox sign a player to a big contract, I am thrilled to have that player on the team. For instance, if the Sox were to sign Cueto or Price this off season, I would be thrilled, even though I'm sure I would not be a fan of the contract. You just have to realize that said contract is likely to handcuff the team financially a few years down the road. From my experience, it seems to me that the people who criticize the FO the most for not signing these types of guys are the same people who will criticize the FO for signing such a "stupid" contract when the contract goes bad. You can't have it both ways. (I don't mean you, personally.)

That is no different than you being a fan of the player but not his contract. Edited July 27, 2015 by a700hitter

[Kimmi]

I read an article yesterday on how similar Theo's and Ben's philosophy have been over the past several years. The difference is that Theo was able to ask the Cubs fans for patience while he gutted that team and rebuilt it from the bottom up. Ben does not have that luxury. He has to find ways to try to stay competitive while waiting for the young core to develop. It worked in 2013 and it has failed miserably in the other years, but I do think that there is a good core up the middle that should keep us competitive for the long haul, with the right additions.

[a700hitter]

Y

I read an article yesterday on how similar Theo's and Ben's philosophy have been over the past several years. The difference is that Theo was able to ask the Cubs fans for patience while he gutted that team and rebuilt it from the bottom up. Ben does not have that luxury. He has to find ways to try to stay competitive while waiting for the young core to develop. It worked in 2013 and it has failed miserably in the other years, but I do think that there is a good core up the middle that should keep us competitive for the long haul, with the right additions.

So, it is the fans fault. Sure that's reasonable. Red Sox fans have shown their impatience by filling Fenway every game for baseball's highest priced tickets. The Cubs attendance has been down 12 percent under Theo. Red Sox attendance is holding steady. In fact, the 2014 last place team attendance was up from the 2013 Championship season.

 

How did the Cubs fans express their patience? Was there a town hall meeting with Cubs officials. How have the Red Sox fans been impatient? Did an angry mob form around Fenway and hang Ben in efigy? I don't remember seeing that either. So, how is this fan impatience manifesting itself and how is it to blame for really poor decisions like giving Porcello an $82 million contract while obtaining no top of the rotation pitchers, or giving $72 million to a guy that can't rise above AAA? You make big claims about backing up your opinions with stats and facts, but this is nonsense backed up by nothing. It is the most meaningless type of opinion - pure speculation.

Edited July 27, 2015 by a700hitter

[a700hitter]

Reports are that the Padres have everyone for sale. It might be worth kicking the tires on a few of their pitchers, especially Shields. His salary isn't bad, and if the Padres want a nice prospect in return they would have to eat a chunk of that. That should leave plenty of other payroll for next season and beyond.

[User Name]

How are you this dumb? That's not what she's saying at all.

[SoxnCycles]

How are you this dumb? That's not what she's saying at all.

 

Looks like she's been ignoring him (rightly so), so the attention whore is pulling out all the stops for a response.

[reYoukilis]

Is it the goal to win WS or keep seats filled? Both is ideal but paying too much attention to the latter at the expense of the former might give us neither, or we'll have full capacity watching s***. The Cubs paid the price for rebuilding without shortcuts but now they're looking good. I can see why Lester went there.

 

I mean if were going to be in last place we might as well be building from the inside out instead of doing it expensively.

[iortiz]

Then where do all of the young aces come from? Did they just appear one day on a Major League roster, complete with a list of unimpeachable references and two years of solid Major League experience?

 

Seriously, do you think that we are going to trade a young ace? Really? And if so, at what cost?. I do not see that happening.

 

Of course I would like a rotation of young top talent, but again, we are 10 light years from there.

 

Listen, I would sign two solid, durable and proven pitchers, like Lester and Shields. Then I would try to sign another solid No. 3 like Buehrle. The 4-7 would come from the farm/trades/drafts/cheap FA.

[iortiz]

Reports are that the Padres have everyone for sale. It might be worth kicking the tires on a few of their pitchers, especially Shields. His salary isn't bad, and if the Padres want a nice prospect in return they would have to eat a chunk of that. That should leave plenty of other payroll for next season and beyond.

 

Exactly. He is still a very good pitcher and is not costly.

[iortiz]

He keeps using Shields as an example of contracts the Red Sox should be aiming to give out. Dude has a 4.12 FIP, 94 ERA+, 1.31 WHIP, and has given up 20 bombs in the best pitcher's park on this planet. He's a great example of what the Red Sox should NOT do.

 

Nice cherry picking. He is a 3.31 xFIP, 3.29 SIERA, 10.3 K/9, 3.7 ERA. He is a very good pitcher and his contract is a bargain, given his profile and actual performance. Funny thing is that you were all-in for Shields and you were even willing to give him 100 M, and suddenly he is a bad idea. You are a sea of contradictions.

[iortiz]

YSo, it is the fans fault. Sure that's reasonable. Red Sox fans have shown their impatience by filling Fenway every game for baseball's highest priced tickets. The Cubs attendance has been down 12 percent under Theo. Red Sox attendance is holding steady. In fact, the 2014 last place team attendance was up from the 2013 Championship season.

 

How did the Cubs fans express their patience? Was there a town hall meeting with Cubs officials. How have the Red Sox fans been impatient? Did an angry mob form around Fenway and hang Ben in efigy? I don't remember seeing that either. So, how is this fan impatience manifesting itself and how is it to blame for really poor decisions like giving Porcello an $82 million contract while obtaining no top of the rotation pitchers, or giving $72 million to a guy that can't rise above AAA? You make big claims about backing up your opinions with stats and facts, but this is nonsense backed up by nothing. It is the most meaningless type of opinion - pure speculation.

 

Theo left a mess. Ben is a mess. We need to move on. Again, we need a new direction and strategy. This franchise and fan base does not deserve this kind of incompetence. Get someone like Friedman.

[reYoukilis]

Theo left a mess. Ben is a mess. We need to move on. Again, we need a new direction and strategy. This franchise and fan base does not deserve this kind of incompetence. Get someone like Friedman.

I wonder though how much is ownership tinkering.

[Thunder]

Reports are that the Padres have everyone for sale. It might be worth kicking the tires on a few of their pitchers, especially Shields. His salary isn't bad, and if the Padres want a nice prospect in return they would have to eat a chunk of that. That should leave plenty of other payroll for next season and beyond.

 

If that's true, their FO is stupider than ours. They spent the whole winter building a "dream team," which as we've found out, does not work in the slightest. They're going to eat so much money from all of these contracts if they trade guys like Upton, Kimbrel, even Kemp.

[Kimmi]

Is it the goal to win WS or keep seats filled? Both is ideal but paying too much attention to the latter at the expense of the former might give us neither, or we'll have full capacity watching s***. The Cubs paid the price for rebuilding without shortcuts but now they're looking good. I can see why Lester went there.

 

I mean if were going to be in last place we might as well be building from the inside out instead of doing it expensively.

 

Therein lies the problem between the business side of things (Lucchino) and the baseball ops side of things (Theo/Ben). Lucchino is concerned with one thing - money. He wants players that will fill the seats and sell merchandise. That goes against what the intent of the GM is. None of us knows for sure who is pulling the strings on which moves, but IMO, Lucchino needs to keep his nose out of baseball ops and let the baseball ops people make the decisions on building the team.

[Kimmi]

I wonder though how much is ownership tinkering.

 

IMO, Theo did not create the mess. It was "forced" upon him by Lucchino.

[a700hitter]

Therein lies the problem between the business side of things (Lucchino) and the baseball ops side of things (Theo/Ben). Lucchino is concerned with one thing - money. He wants players that will fill the seats and sell merchandise. That goes against what the intent of the GM is. None of us knows for sure who is pulling the strings on which moves, but IMO, Lucchino needs to keep his nose out of baseball ops and let the baseball ops people make the decisions on building the team.

Every team has the same concerns.

[a700hitter]

IMO, Theo did not create the mess. It was "forced" upon him by Lucchino.

Pure speculation.

[reYoukilis]

IMO, Theo did not create the mess. It was "forced" upon him by Lucchino.

Can't stand Lucchino. The spring training after the WS, he was talking major smack about the Yankees in the press. We then commenced to suck and now the Yankees are in first place.

[User Name]

What is iortiz even talking about? He's always advocating for the FO to spend stupid money. That's what they need to stop doing.

[Kimmi]

Can't stand Lucchino. The spring training after the WS, he was talking major smack about the Yankees in the press. We then commenced to suck and now the Yankees are in first place.

 

I can't stand Lucchino either. As one of my fellow posters always says, Lucchino should not be allowed anywhere near a microphone.

[iortiz]

Pure speculation.

 

Yup. Like Porcello's mess haha.

[Palodios]

They get drafted, but we have a really bad track record in that area. Really bad. We need to get some scouts that know something about pitching.

 

These guys are all early round picks or pulled from other countries at young ages. The Red Sox haven't had opportunities to get into those low picks, and even when they can go low, they might go with a position player instead. Trey Ball, Espinoza, and Acosta are the high ceiling guys in the system, but they're all very young.

 

 

Which early rounder pitchers has this team missed on? Matt Barnes is the only one I can think of recently. Brian Johnson came from a weak draft class, and the Red Sox went for a guy with a low ceiling/high floor that would make it to the majors quickly. Owens is looking like a major league starter. The Red Sox drafted Casey Kelly early, but traded him away for A-gon before his value dropped too far. Same with Hagadone.

[iortiz]

What is iortiz even talking about? He's always advocating for the FO to spend stupid money. That's what they need to stop doing.

 

Haha keep making s*** up.

 

Btw The suggestions that I have made, have worked out, like Palelbon, Bueherle, etc.

[a700hitter]

These guys are all early round picks or pulled from other countries at young ages. The Red Sox haven't had opportunities to get into those low picks, and even when they can go low, they might go with a position player instead. Trey Ball, Espinoza, and Acosta are the high ceiling guys in the system, but they're all very young.

 

 

Which early rounder pitchers has this team missed on? Matt Barnes is the only one I can think of recently. Brian Johnson came from a weak draft class, and the Red Sox went for a guy with a low ceiling/high floor that would make it to the majors quickly. Owens is looking like a major league starter. The Red Sox drafted Casey Kelly early, but traded him away for A-gon before his value dropped too far. Same with Hagadone.

We will be finishing last for a third time in 3 years, but there is never a good pitcher available when we get a high draft choice? Trey Ball? Excuses. Our organization just doesn't know anything about pitching.

[Palodios]

We will be finishing last for a third time in 3 years, but there is never a good pitcher available when we get a high draft choice? Trey Ball? Excuses. Our organization just doesn't know anything about pitching.

 

Trey Ball was drafted at 7th overall. Excluding pitchers who didn't sign, the next pitchers to go were:

 

Braden Shipley at 15th overall.

Chris Anderson at 18th overall

Marco Gonzales 19th overall

Jonathon Crawford 20th overall

Hunter Harvey 22nd overall

Alex Gonzalez 23rd overall

 

None of these guys are stud pitchers in the majors right now.

[a700hitter]

Trey Ball was drafted at 7th overall. Excluding pitchers who didn't sign, the next pitchers to go were:

 

Braden Shipley at 15th overall.

Chris Anderson at 18th overall

Marco Gonzales 19th overall

Jonathon Crawford 20th overall

Hunter Harvey 22nd overall

Alex Gonzalez 23rd overall

 

None of these guys are stud pitchers in the majors right now.

It is a bit early for returns on 2012, but Ball is barely showing tiny baby steps of progress in our system. Let's not make it about 2012 or even about top pitchers. We shouldn't lose focus that this organization has a bad record turning out pitchers period. They don't even turn out mid level or back end rotation types. It is a huge organizational weakness. It has nothing to do with draft position. Edited July 27, 2015 by a700hitter