2015 Red Sox In-Season Thread

[a700hitter]

Just get goddamn pitching man!

 

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2015/07/31/ben-cherington-admits-being-wrong-with-beginning-of-year-expectations-for-red-sox/

 

I wonder if he still likes our pitching?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Get pitching when you're already out of the race? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

[iortiz]

Get pitching when you're already out of the race? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

Not for winning now, but later. Also it doesn't mean that he has to do it now.

[iortiz]

I wonder if he still likes our pitching?

 

Clearly he doesn't according to the note.

[reYoukilis]

I disagree with that. Stating that it wasn't your idea implies that you were against it. I think it's always better to give the impression of a united front, regardless of what goes on behind the scenes.

 

And what kind of message would that send to the player? Henry said something along those lines about Crawford, didn't he? Not a good thing to do, IMO.

Up to a point. I understand that it would be bad for Cherington to say, "I didn't want him" to a player like Panda but some owners can drag a team down for decades and the GM, by association with it. Not to mention the players and the most taken for granted, the fans.

[sk7326]

The Sox were not influenced by his playoff numbers. Stat geeks know better.

 

If anything, they were seduced by his marketability, which would mean that Lucchino stuck his nose where it didn't belong, once again.

 

Possibly that a little. But I think mostly they were seduced by his age (only top FA in the class under 30) and spray charts - which were tailor made for Fenway. He is a good athlete (which is why he has been able to be a decent 3B at his fitness level), so there was some upside if you wanted.

 

There was definitely some "winning the press conference" though I tend not to blame Lucchino specifically. Lucchino after all is the one who has had the eye for executive talent. I don't think Lucchino is the leader in terms of looking at NESN ratings. But it is a reckoning the Sox could use. Kimmi is generally right - the team needs changes, but it's not actually that far away.

[Spudboy]

If a manager in any organization is being told by his superior that he must do something he can voice questions or decent but ultimately if the superior wants it he has to do it.

 

That's just how the world works.

 

So if Ben did not want Panda and his bosses did want the bloated stiff there is not much he can do.

 

Telling the world that your boss is a moron or made a big and costly mistake is a fast lane to unemployment.

 

There are exceptions for people who are very good at their jobs and are valuable to the boss even with the disagreement.

 

MLB GM jobs are not widely available. Maybe Ben did not want the porker but kept his mouth shut.

 

Or maybe he is someone who has maxed out on the Peter Meter and just does poorly at his job.

 

The net result is a poor product in this instance. Making excuses or speculating how it all happened is pointless.

 

They all know that the fans will foot the bill regardless of what they do. At least in this market, anyway.

[Spudboy]

By the way, Ben did not sound very happy today in his dugout interview after the deadline.

 

He also did not exactly sound contrite. While he did say that the team was not performing the way that "we" envisioned, he fell way short of saying that he, himself, had f***ed up and put together a poor team.

 

I really don't care what happens to him.

 

Unless this team does some revamping across the board, kiss 2017 good bye.

 

2016 is almost certainly gone as it is.

[jacksonianmarch]

There are a myriad of f*** ups from the FO this season. Ben has to be blamed for a few. If the sox situation is anything like NY's, the President gets involved only on the big deals and sometimes oversteps his GM, but the trades and roster building stuff is otherwise up to Cash. My bet is that Ben may have been handed Panda or Hanley, but he made a few other blunders that are going to seal his fate. He should be fired

[Bellhorn04]

[/b]

 

That's why they are called analysts. Whether it be sports, politics or whatever professional analysts are paid for conclusions based on many factors both quantitative ( statistics) and qualitative ( assumptions and speculations) that's what they do. It is called judgement.

 

I understand. And sometimes what the analysts say is pure horseshit. In this particular case I think that's what it is. I'm not saying that Sandoval's postseason numbers weren't a factor. I'm saying they weren't the determining factor. You don't shell out 95 million for a player based on that.

 

Just my take.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Bellhorn04

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

This team may be lousy and sloppily constructed, but it's not 12-below-at-the-deadline lousy. Farrell and his guys should be the first ones out the door whenever management decides to start firing people. The players have quit on Farrell, because he's a domineering pain-in-the-ass and a poor leader. The coaching staff has been a complete embarrassment.

 

Say what you will about Cherington, but anyone who advocates for a scenario where he goes and Farrell + the coaches stay is f***ing nuts.

Edited August 1, 2015 by Jacoby_Ellsbury

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I wish I could be surprised that Elktonnick is citing f***ing ESPN and MLB Network to try and make his point that the GM is a big dum-dum.

[Elktonnick]

I understand. And sometimes what the analysts say is pure horseshit. In this particular case I think that's what I think it is. I'm not saying that Sandoval's postseason numbers weren't a factor. I'm saying they weren't the determining factor. You don't shell out 95 million for a player based on that.

 

Just my take.

 

Yes analysts can be wrong just as Cherrington can be (and usually is ) wrong. Actually it makes more sense to have signed Sandoval for his playoff performance than his regular season numbers because Cherrington believed he was building a playoff contender given perceived weakness in the ALE. BTW Even as poorly as Sandoval has played he is still better than WMB who is no longer in the major leagues. Whether Sandoval is worth 95 million, Cherrington has overpaid for a lot of players. Ever heard of pitcher named Porcello?

[Bellhorn04]

This team may be lousy and sloppily constructed, but it's not 12-below-at-the-deadline lousy. Farrell and his guys should be the first ones out the door whenever management decides to start firing people. The players have quit on Farrell, because he's a domineering pain-in-the-ass and a poor leader. The coaching staff has been a complete embarrassment.

 

Say what you will about Cherington, but anyone who advocates for a scenario where he goes and Farrell + the coaches stay is f***ing nuts.

 

Yes, amazing as it is, I think Farrell deserves to be fired more than Cherington does.

[Elktonnick]

Why would anyone trust Cherrington to hire anyone better?

[sk7326]

Why would anyone trust Cherrington to hire anyone better?

 

Farrell was the right man at the right time - but has not been good at advancing things. Cherington will not necessarily have autonomy in the managerial search. At the same time, there are plenty of solid candidates - and it could be as simple as Lovullo (though I doubt it).

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Who would be a better candidate for the GM position than Cherington?

[Bellhorn04]

Why would anyone trust Cherrington to hire anyone better?

 

By the same token, we can't trust our owners to hire someone better than Cherington.

[Elktonnick]

By the same token, we can't trust our owners to hire someone better than Cherington.

 

On that we can agree. It is a conundrum.

[Elktonnick]

By the same token, we can't trust our owners to hire someone better than Cherington.

 

On that we can agree. It is a conundrum.

[sk7326]

By the same token, we can't trust our owners to hire someone better than Cherington.

 

Oh I'm not sure about that. Lucchino discovered Epstein, hired Kevin Towers (who was a good executive for a while), and kept the store open while Epstein was on sabbatical. The infrastructure organizationally is strong and there are enough "Sox guys" spread around that a replacement search could be done with a lot of qualified guys who they know already. Give a psuedo-promotion to Jed Hoyer, or an actual one to Jason McLeod. The caliber of guy has been less of an issue than how he fits into the org chart as a whole - that requires some more rethinking.

[Bellhorn04]

Oh I'm not sure about that. Lucchino discovered Epstein, hired Kevin Towers (who was a good executive for a while), and kept the store open while Epstein was on sabbatical.

 

Sure. But now Lucchino seems to be the fall guy for any moves that smack of box office, like Sandoval, or arrogance, like the $70 million offer to Lester.

 

And the latest is that Larry has been nudged out of the picture in favor of Werner.

 

It seems to be anybody's guess who's running the show.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

And the latest is that Larry has been nudged out of the picture in favor of Werner.

Werner? Oh we are f***ed now.

[Kimmi]

It was fairly obvious to a number of baseball analysts that the Sox were seduced by Sandoval's playoff numbers. That was the point that many made on MLB network, MLB radio, ESPN and elsewhere. I know you want to absolve Cherrington for his incompetence and blame everything on that evil Larry Lucchino. But Ben is either the General Manager or a highly paid eunuch, which is he?

 

I don't remember ever hearing or reading the opinion of any analyst that the Sox were seduced into signing Sandoval because of his playoff numbers. Yes, there were analysts who voiced their skepticism about whether Sandoval was a good signing. There were analysts who pointed out that Sandoval's regular season numbers were not as good as his postseason numbers. There were analysts who said the Sox shouldn't sign him based on his postseason performance. That is not the same thing as saying that the Sox were seduced by his postseason numbers.

 

I know you think that Ben is an idiot. Give him some credit though. He is not going sign someone based on postseason numbers.

[Kimmi]

Sandoval may be a bad signing and a stupid signing, but there's no way the determining factor was his playoff numbers. I think everybody on this forum realizes you can't evaluate a player based on their playoff numbers alone, especially not one you're investing 95 million in. The average Joe Fan knows this. It's obvious. Some of these analysts just form their own conclusions based on assumption and speculation.

 

I don't even believe that the analysts believe that the Sox would sign anyone based on playoff numbers alone. As you said, it's obviously not something that any GM would do.

[Kimmi]

This team may be lousy and sloppily constructed, but it's not 12-below-at-the-deadline lousy. Farrell and his guys should be the first ones out the door whenever management decides to start firing people. The players have quit on Farrell, because he's a domineering pain-in-the-ass and a poor leader. The coaching staff has been a complete embarrassment.

 

Say what you will about Cherington, but anyone who advocates for a scenario where he goes and Farrell + the coaches stay is f***ing nuts.

 

I have been a defender of Farrell in the past, but I'm starting to think that replacing Farrell and other coaches might not be a bad idea. When there is widespread sloppy play and underperformance, you have to wonder what is going on with the coaching. I still think the bulk of the blame falls on the players' shoulders, but the coaching staff would come next.

 

I've always liked Gardenhire.

[mvp 78]

Werner? Oh we are f***ed now.

 

Why else would they have signed "Panda?" Marketing move. TV! Funny hats! Sox Appeal!

[sk7326]

Sure. But now Lucchino seems to be the fall guy for any moves that smack of box office, like Sandoval, or arrogance, like the $70 million offer to Lester.

 

And the latest is that Larry has been nudged out of the picture in favor of Werner.

 

It seems to be anybody's guess who's running the show.

 

It is unfortunate.

 

I've actually genuinely respected Larry. He has proven to be a good at running a baseball franchise - and that includes building a front office. Since a lot of "president" types come from the baseball operations side, it is easy to scapegoat a guy who does not - especially if he is a total loudmouth like Lucchino is. But from the time this ownership group took hold, he has hired exceptional baseball operations people. There was a power struggle - but you expect that, especially with a guy like Epstein who is too young to not have ambition for more. If he were in charge of the next GM hire, it would be a sound one (like a Jason McLeod perhaps).

[Elktonnick]

I don't remember ever hearing or reading the opinion of any analyst that the Sox were seduced into signing Sandoval because of his playoff numbers. Yes, there were analysts who voiced their skepticism about whether Sandoval was a good signing. There were analysts who pointed out that Sandoval's regular season numbers were not as good as his postseason numbers. There were analysts who said the Sox shouldn't sign him based on his postseason performance. That is not the same thing as saying that the Sox were seduced by his postseason numbers.

 

I know you think that Ben is an idiot. Give him some credit though. He is not going sign someone based on postseason numbers.

 

You are right about one thing I do think Ben is an idiot. And of course Cherrington signed him on his post season. The Sox were coming off a disastrous season. They let their number one pitcher walk after offering him an insulting contract. They refused to go after a front line starter. ( and don't say that Porcello was one) Their 2014 team had putrid offensive production. The Sox wanted to make a splash to calm the faithful so they signed the World Series MVP. Do you seriously believe that even the idiot Ben would have offered Sandoval a 95 million contract if hadn't had such an outstanding playoff performance. If you do then you think Ben is more incompetent than I do. And it isn't as if Ben and the Red Sox don't have a history of bad personnel decisions. That's how they got into the mess they are in.

[Spudboy]

I doubt that post season performance was the only reason they signed Fatboy. But I am confident that it was part of the decision. The guy is an average player with a big reputation gained mostly during his most recent playoff experience. The Sox needed some new star power and wanted to sign a player with sizzle to market to the dumbed down masses of pink hats. It only make sense. It has to since signing a mediocre player in decline that caries 60-80 pounds more than is healthy clearly was not a good idea by itself.

 

But I guess that the fact that he is an upgrade from WMB makes it all make sense!