2015 Red Sox In-Season Thread

[Spudboy]

The team is a f***ing mess.

 

Who made what decision is all speculation. The easy target is Ben because he is the GM.

 

Personally, I have little faith in the FO. Three WS tittles are nice. But those goons are self indulgent, egotistical money grabbers.

 

And I especially don't like them for the way that they treated Tito after the 2011 collapse.

[SoxnCycles]

The team is a f***ing mess.

 

Who made what decision is all speculation. The easy target is Ben because he is the GM.

 

Personally, I have little faith in the FO. Three WS tittles are nice. But those goons are self indulgent, egotistical money grabbers.

 

And I especially don't like them for the way that they treated Tito after the 2011 collapse.

 

Show me an owner that isn't.

It probably goes with having that type of personality.

 

I agree about the Francona thing.

The way that was handled is about as low as you can get.

[Palodios]

Who made what decision is all speculation. The easy target is Ben because he is the GM.

 

At this point firing Ben seems justifiable.

 

But if JH, TW, and LL keep making baseball decisions, it will go much worse for this franchise.

[Elktonnick]

At this point firing Ben seems justifiable.

 

But if JH, TW, and LL keep making baseball decisions, it will go much worse for this franchise.

 

Agreed, unless they hire a good baseball man and give him a reasonable budget. Let him make the decisions and hold him accountable for the results. They make not be able to get him and I believe his contract is up soon but I vote for Dan Duquette.

[Kimmi]

If Ben doesn't have either the cajones or personal stature stand up to whomever in the FO is "over ruling" him on baseball signings and moves then, like I posted, he isn't up to the job. Personally I don't buy this conspiracy theory that the FO is full of intrigue. Ben is either the General Manager or he isn't. If he is being constantly undermined by "sinister" forces in the FO then he should quit.

 

Do you honestly think that Ben standing up to Lucchino is going to give Ben full autonomy to do whatever he wants? Unfortunately, the bottom line is $$$ and that means that the owners are going to put making money in front of building a good team when making decisions. Ben can stand up to the owners all he wants, but the owners ultimately have the final say. He either has to accept it and deal with it, or quit his job. Why do you think Theo left, more than once?

 

With all the criticism of Ben and Farrell, I am curious as to what the opinions about Theo and Tito were on this board. Those two were the best. We never had it so good with them, yet the amount of criticism towards them was unbelievable. All I can say is, be careful what you wish for.

[Spudboy]

Agreed, unless they hire a good baseball man and give him a reasonable budget. Let him make the decisions and hold him accountable for the results. They make not be able to get him and I believe his contract is up soon but I vote for Dan Duquette.

 

I like him. He never got enough credit for the good things that he did.

[Spudboy]

Do you honestly think that Ben standing up to Lucchino is going to give Ben full autonomy to do whatever he wants? Unfortunately, the bottom line is $$$ and that means that the owners are going to put making money in front of building a good team when making decisions. Ben can stand up to the owners all he wants, but the owners ultimately have the final say. He either has to accept it and deal with it, or quit his job. Why do you think Theo left, more than once?

 

With all the criticism of Ben and Farrell, I am curious as to what the opinions about Theo and Tito were on this board. Those two were the best. We never had it so good with them, yet the amount of criticism towards them was unbelievable. All I can say is, be careful what you wish for.

 

Good post.

 

It may be unpopular to say on this board but I like Theo ( even though he got some credit for what Douquette did ) and I thought Tito was the perfect manager for this franchise and a great guy to listen to. He got a raw deal.

[Elktonnick]

Do you honestly think that Ben standing up to Lucchino is going to give Ben full autonomy to do whatever he wants? Unfortunately, the bottom line is $$$ and that means that the owners are going to put making money in front of building a good team when making decisions. Ben can stand up to the owners all he wants, but the owners ultimately have the final say. He either has to accept it and deal with it, or quit his job. Why do you think Theo left, more than once?

 

With all the criticism of Ben and Farrell, I am curious as to what the opinions about Theo and Tito were on this board. Those two were the best. We never had it so good with them, yet the amount of criticism towards them was unbelievable. All I can say is, be careful what you wish for.

 

Can't tell whether you are agreeing with me or not. Regarding Tito and Theo, Tito should have left one year before he did. Big league managers all have a shelf life. 7 years with one team is long enough. Theo made some good moves but he had the benefit of the foundation built by Dan Duquette. The jury is still out on his stint in Chicago.

[Kimmi]

Good post.

 

It may be unpopular to say on this board but I like Theo ( even though he got some credit for what Douquette did ) and I thought Tito was the perfect manager for this franchise and a great guy to listen to. He got a raw deal.

 

Theo was the man. He got far more criticism than he deserved. Ben is no Theo, but he is also getting far more criticism than he deserves.

 

Something is definitely amiss with this team. Whether anyone likes the strategy behind the way the team was built or not, the talent is there. Perhaps you don't think there's enough talent to be a first place caliber team, but even so, there is no way they should be playing as badly as they are. No way.

 

So, where is the disconnect between what's on paper and what takes place on the field? Why is there such a large disparity?

[Bellhorn04]

Theo made some good moves but he had the benefit of the foundation built by Dan Duquette.

 

He did have a good foundation. But the team he inherited had missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and had won exactly one playoff series under Duquette. In the 9 years Theo was GM our worst season was 86-76, and we know all the rest. He was a hugely successful GM in his own right.

[User Name]

The "benefit of Duquette" argument is overplayed, and doesn't hold much water.

[User Name]

Theo was the man. He got far more criticism than he deserved. Ben is no Theo, but he is also getting far more criticism than he deserves.

 

Something is definitely amiss with this team. Whether anyone likes the strategy behind the way the team was built or not, the talent is there. Perhaps you don't think there's enough talent to be a first place caliber team, but even so, there is no way they should be playing as badly as they are. No way.

 

So, where is the disconnect between what's on paper and what takes place on the field? Why is there such a large disparity?

 

As soon as I signed onto this board, the first thing I noticed is that there are some people here who will constantly whine about the team's FO regardless of the team's performance. It is what it is.

[Kimmi]

Can't tell whether you are agreeing with me or not. Regarding Tito and Theo, Tito should have left one year before he did. Big league managers all have a shelf life. 7 years with one team is long enough. Theo made some good moves but he had the benefit of the foundation built by Dan Duquette. The jury is still out on his stint in Chicago.

 

I am disagreeing with your thought that if Ben doesn't have the cajones to stand up to his owners to do the job the way he wants to do it, then he should just quit. The owners are ultimately going to make the final decisions, no matter how much a GM stands up to him.

[Elktonnick]

I am disagreeing with your thought that if Ben doesn't have the cajones to stand up to his owners to do the job the way he wants to do it, then he should just quit. The owners are ultimately going to make the final decisions, no matter how much a GM stands up to him.

 

If one is a person of integrity competence and conviction then one should quit. I know many in lucrative positions who have resigned under such circumstances. So either Cherrington is incompetent or a moral coward. Which is he? At least, Theo had the cajones to walk away.

[Palodios]

I like him. He never got enough credit for the good things that he did.

 

Just as Ben will never get the credit in 2-3 years when the team's farm system is churning out All-stars.

 

Hopefully his replacement won't trade them away for something shiny.

[Elktonnick]

He did have a good foundation. But the team he inherited had missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and had won exactly one playoff series under Duquette. In the 9 years Theo was GM our worst season was 86-76, and we know all the rest. He was a hugely successful GM in his own right.

 

Didn't say any thing to the contrary.

[Spudboy]

Theo was the man. He got far more criticism than he deserved. Ben is no Theo, but he is also getting far more criticism than he deserves.

 

Something is definitely amiss with this team. Whether anyone likes the strategy behind the way the team was built or not, the talent is there. Perhaps you don't think there's enough talent to be a first place caliber team, but even so, there is no way they should be playing as badly as they are. No way.

 

So, where is the disconnect between what's on paper and what takes place on the field? Why is there such a large disparity?

 

For the record ( since you came on board after I said my pieces regarding how the should be built, what they did wrong, and predicted 3-4 place ) I never expected this team to sniff the playoffs this year. I do agree that there is talent on this team. Especially with the position players.

 

Talent is not enough. I think that along with a lousy pitching staff, this team has too many players of questionable character. Not enough heart.

 

Overall, this team just does not have enough of anything to be a playoff team regardless of whether the team construction was a good idea / poor execution or not. The entire org fell miserably short of anything that should have been reasonably expected for a team of such resources.

 

As usual, this is just my opinion. People can say what they want about how Fat Boy and the Dredded One have underperformed. That is a cop out. I'd much rather have Gomes / Nava in left and WMB at 3rd now. I never once thought that those guys were not giving their best.

 

I can not say with any real certainty or even conviction where the disconnect is. But I say the cream is sour at the top.

[Spudboy]

As soon as I signed onto this board, the first thing I noticed is that there are some people here who will constantly whine about the team's FO regardless of the team's performance. It is what it is.

 

Hope you aren't painting me with that brush.

 

I concede that I don't like the three bosses. But that is because I think that they are pukes. Not because of how the team is run.

[Palodios]

Talent is not enough. I think that along with a lousy pitching staff, this team has too many players of questionable character. Not enough heart.

 

Pablo was a good clubhouse guy, Victorino, Ortiz, Pedroia, Porcello, Miley, Napoli. They all get the kind words. Hanley is the only "problem" and there are no real reports of him causing issues. The problem is when they start losing.

 

What's the solution? Players don't like losing. It would be funny to see the Red Sox go out in free agency and find as many "good clubhouse guys" on losing teams.

[Elktonnick]

Pablo was a good clubhouse guy, Victorino, Ortiz, Pedroia, Porcello, Miley, Napoli. They all get the kind words. Hanley is the only "problem" and there are no real reports of him causing issues. The problem is when they start losing.

 

What's the solution? Players don't like losing. It would be funny to see the Red Sox go out in free agency and find as many "good clubhouse guys" on losing teams.

 

In my mind being a "good clubhouse guy" is not the same as having good character and a team player on the field. I haven't heard and wouldn't necessarily consider that Sandoval was a good clubhouse guy after his parting shot at his Giants team mates. I certainly wouldn't call Miley a strong character guy after his stunt with Farrell.

 

We have heard that last year there was a lot of tension between the vets and the younger players so I am not sure what if any responsibility the others have for that tension. Clearly among the pitchers there is no one that has demonstrated leadership and the kind of character to pull a team through the tough times.

 

Hanley is an easy target but I don't think he is alone. This team reminds me of the Red Sox teams of the Yawkey years for all doing and going the own ways with the exception of Pedroia and Holt.

[Northern Star]

Pablo was a good clubhouse guy, Victorino, Ortiz, Pedroia, Porcello, Miley, Napoli. They all get the kind words. Hanley is the only "problem" and there are no real reports of him causing issues. The problem is when they start losing.

 

What's the solution? Players don't like losing. It would be funny to see the Red Sox go out in free agency and find as many "good clubhouse guys" on losing teams.

 

I don't give a s*** about the clubhouse, what do you do on the field?

[Northern Star]

Do you honestly think that Ben standing up to Lucchino is going to give Ben full autonomy to do whatever he wants? Unfortunately, the bottom line is $$$ and that means that the owners are going to put making money in front of building a good team when making decisions. Ben can stand up to the owners all he wants, but the owners ultimately have the final say. He either has to accept it and deal with it, or quit his job. Why do you think Theo left, more than once?

 

With all the criticism of Ben and Farrell, I am curious as to what the opinions about Theo and Tito were on this board. Those two were the best. We never had it so good with them, yet the amount of criticism towards them was unbelievable. All I can say is, be careful what you wish for.

 

Tito did the impossible. I'm not up on Theo enough to judge his performance over the entire time he was here, but he sure seemed to do better than Ben is doing now.

[Northern Star]

I think it's a last-ditch effort to get something out of Napoli.

I'm sure they'd rather trade him than cut him.

 

Bitching a bout Holt missing a couple of games seem to me to be the equivalent of bitching about your seat on the lifeboat being wet.

 

Well, what is the team trying to do? Are they trying to win games while it's still mathematically possible to make the playoffs, or are they waving the white flag? Napoli should be released He's using up (ie throwing away) ABs that would probably be more productive given to someone else. To play him and sit Holt is indefensible, no matter how you have to juggle the lineup. I seriously hope the Sox aren't trying to showcase Napoli because that's a lost cause.

[Northern Star]

Apologies to anyone who already posted about this, but.... Hanley must not be allowed another start in LF. Get him the f*** out of there. NOW.

[Palodios]

I don't give a s*** about the clubhouse, what do you do on the field?

 

I was responding to Spudboy who said they are talented, but a poor clubhouse. Chill out.

[User Name]

If one is a person of integrity competence and conviction then one should quit. I know many in lucrative positions who have resigned under such circumstances. So either Cherrington is incompetent or a moral coward. Which is he? At least, Theo had the cajones to walk away.

 

Your absolutism is retarded. Life isn't black or white, but rather shades of gray. Cashman put up with years of meddling until he finally asserted his authority. Come join the rest of us in real life.

[User Name]

For the record ( since you came on board after I said my pieces regarding how the should be built, what they did wrong, and predicted 3-4 place ) I never expected this team to sniff the playoffs this year. I do agree that there is talent on this team. Especially with the position players.

 

Talent is not enough. I think that along with a lousy pitching staff, this team has too many players of questionable character. Not enough heart.

 

Overall, this team just does not have enough of anything to be a playoff team regardless of whether the team construction was a good idea / poor execution or not. The entire org fell miserably short of anything that should have been reasonably expected for a team of such resources.

 

As usual, this is just my opinion. People can say what they want about how Fat Boy and the Dredded One have underperformed. That is a cop out. I'd much rather have Gomes / Nava in left and WMB at 3rd now. I never once thought that those guys were not giving their best.

 

I can not say with any real certainty or even conviction where the disconnect is. But I say the cream is sour at the top.

 

Ewwww, WMB sucks. They should have gotten Hanley to play 3B, skipped on fat boy, and kept Lackey.

[Spudboy]

Ewwww, WMB sucks. They should have gotten Hanley to play 3B, skipped on fat boy, and kept Lackey.

 

I agree. I was only saying that saying that I would prefer the players that were here because of their heart and character.

 

And for the record I made no reference to anyone in the clubhouse. What a player does while on the field is what I was referring to.

[mvp 78]

Ewwww, WMB sucks. They should have gotten Hanley to play 3B, skipped on fat boy, and kept Lackey.

 

I agree 100%.

[mvp 78]

Theo>Interim GMs>Duquette>Ben

 

Theo got Papi. He gets top vote even though he had lots of help for 04 and 07.