JBJ's Spring

[User Name]

He could never motivate Upton to play hard. The guy dogged it all the time.

 

Yeah, but neither could Atlanta, and SD probably won't be able to either. He's just a dog.

[User Name]

You got that one right Spud. Still, he used to outclass and make a monkey of Francona in their series duels back when he seemed to know what Terry was going to do or, in his case, not do.

 

Where do you come up with this stuff fred?

[seabeachfred]

Where do you come up with this stuff fred?

 

User---good question.......Here is where I come up with it. I remember very vividly how Maddon never had his infielders moving and shifting spots in the infield because he was totally convinced that Francona would never move his runners in a daring steal or double steal late in a game. I vividly remember those two crucial two series in 2008 when we won the first of each series only to lose the next two on both occasions. The first one at Fenway really irritated me. Maddon's pitchers never even looked back at the runner on second, not once during that series. The Red Sox runners could have walked to third and set up a non-force situation and a potential two run burst with a key hit. Francona did NOT move his runners even once. Hell, the Rays could sit back and relax for the ball that might come their way because the runners weren't going anywhere. To this day, I'm convinced those series cost us the division title, and home field advantage in the ALCS should our teams meet.....which they did.

 

The other gem was when Francona said he never worried about stolen bases by the other team since it didn't mean all that much? Huh????? Carl Crawford stole seven of them in one game in a four game home series at Fenway where we got skunked three games to one. I could give you other examples but that's the way I see it.

 

And caution the rest of you out there. If you disagree, do so and tell me why you think I'm wrong. I'll be glad to listen and might learn something. Do NOT get snide and insulting though. I would not like that at all and will retaliate. User, go ahead and disagree if you wish. I know what I'm saying will not sit well with some.

[Bellhorn04]

User---good question.......Here is where I come up with it. I remember very vividly how Maddon never had his infielders moving and shifting spots in the infield because he was totally convinced that Francona would never move his runners in a daring steal or double steal late in a game. I vividly remember those two crucial two series in 2008 when we won the first of each series only to lose the next two on both occasions. The first one at Fenway really irritated me. Maddon's pitchers never even looked back at the runner on second, not once during that series. The Red Sox runners could have walked to third and set up a non-force situation and a potential two run burst with a key hit. Francona did NOT move his runners even once. Hell, the Rays could sit back and relax for the ball that might come their way because the runners weren't going anywhere. To this day, I'm convinced those series cost us the division title, and home field advantage in the ALCS should our teams meet.....which they did.

 

The other gem was when Francona said he never worried about stolen bases by the other team since it didn't mean all that much? Huh????? Carl Crawford stole seven of them in one game in a four game home series at Fenway where we got skunked three games to one. I could give you other examples but that's the way I see it.

 

And caution the rest of you out there. If you disagree, do so and tell me why you think I'm wrong. I'll be glad to listen and might learn something. Do NOT get snide and insulting though. I would not like that at all and will retaliate. User, go ahead and disagree if you wish. I know what I'm saying will not sit well with some.

 

OTOH it was pretty well documented that Maddon had a lot to do with the Rays blowing Game 5 to us - pulling Kazmir early etc.

[User Name]

User---good question.......Here is where I come up with it. I remember very vividly how Maddon never had his infielders moving and shifting spots in the infield because he was totally convinced that Francona would never move his runners in a daring steal or double steal late in a game. I vividly remember those two crucial two series in 2008 when we won the first of each series only to lose the next two on both occasions. The first one at Fenway really irritated me. Maddon's pitchers never even looked back at the runner on second, not once during that series. The Red Sox runners could have walked to third and set up a non-force situation and a potential two run burst with a key hit. Francona did NOT move his runners even once. Hell, the Rays could sit back and relax for the ball that might come their way because the runners weren't going anywhere. To this day, I'm convinced those series cost us the division title, and home field advantage in the ALCS should our teams meet.....which they did.

 

The other gem was when Francona said he never worried about stolen bases by the other team since it didn't mean all that much? Huh????? Carl Crawford stole seven of them in one game in a four game home series at Fenway where we got skunked three games to one. I could give you other examples but that's the way I see it.

 

And caution the rest of you out there. If you disagree, do so and tell me why you think I'm wrong. I'll be glad to listen and might learn something. Do NOT get snide and insulting though. I would not like that at all and will retaliate. User, go ahead and disagree if you wish. I know what I'm saying will not sit well with some.

 

Yeah, that's pretty terrible logic fred. The main problem is that you are trying to compare teams that were built for pretty different styles of play. Also, you're disregarding the fact that good baserunners had the green light to steal under Francona. The Red Sox just didn't have many good baserunners during Francona's tenure. Your vision is clouded because you dislike the guy, and you dislike him for all the wrong reasons.

 

Also, Madodn isn't that good.

[GomesBeard]

I think Maddon's shtick is to try and make the game fun again - Mariachi bands and penguins in the clubhouse, 'theme' travel days, etc. I kinda like it. I know few of us feel sorry for the ballplayers (especially those of us that never made it only because we couldn't hit a curveball ;-) but it is a grind and I think any way you can lighten it up, especially with a younger team, is probably a good thing.

[seabeachfred]

OTOH it was pretty well documented that Maddon had a lot to do with the Rays blowing Game 5 to us - pulling Kazmir early etc.

 

True......I also was not a big fan of Francona's strategy and thought he was too much of a base to base strategist. My personal feelings might have clouded by beliefs somewhat.

[seabeachfred]

Yeah, that's pretty terrible logic fred. The main problem is that you are trying to compare teams that were built for pretty different styles of play. Also, you're disregarding the fact that good baserunners had the green light to steal under Francona. The Red Sox just didn't have many good baserunners during Francona's tenure. Your vision is clouded because you dislike the guy, and you dislike him for all the wrong reasons.

 

Also, Madodn isn't that good.

 

Right, I was not a big fan of Francona's base-to-base strategy. It led to a lot of killed rallies via the double play, but I accept your take on things. At least you disagreed with me and used logic to do it and didn't get personal. Still I thought Maddon was a good manager for the Rays and will be for the Cubs. He got his ass run today in Chicago BTW.

[cp176]

I think Maddon's shtick is to try and make the game fun again - Mariachi bands and penguins in the clubhouse, 'theme' travel days, etc. I kinda like it. I know few of us feel sorry for the ballplayers (especially those of us that never made it only because we couldn't hit a curveball ;-) but it is a grind and I think any way you can lighten it up, especially with a younger team, is probably a good thing.

 

I'm not sure that from a pure stategy standpoint he is anything special but I do agree with you that he does try to bring the element of fun to the team which also I knows builds team spirit which can mean a great deal. In many respects it is more important than being a good strategist in today's game.

[sk7326]

Right, I was not a big fan of Francona's base-to-base strategy. It led to a lot of killed rallies via the double play, but I accept your take on things. At least you disagreed with me and used logic to do it and didn't get personal. Still I thought Maddon was a good manager for the Rays and will be for the Cubs. He got his ass run today in Chicago BTW.

 

Francona and the org tend to believe that the way to move baserunners is to get hits. Yeah led to a lot of DPs at times - and the Red Sox were often among the league leaders in men left on base - although if you think about it in a backhanded way, both of those are good stats.

[Kimmi]

What are some of the specific things he has said and done that lead you to that opinion, Kimmi? I'm asking this because, while I dislike him too, I'm not so sure it isn't just because he's one of those people whose looks and style can really get on your nerves.

 

 

Let me first say that I think Maddon is a good manager. Is he as good as Francona? IMO, no, but he is good. The fact that he was a division rival for a while probably doesn't help his likeability factor.

 

What I don't like is that I think he takes things to the extreme in an effort to call attention to himself. This is both in terms of baseball moves and non baseball moves. Some examples are his extreme overshifting, his constant changes in lineups, his "themed" road trips, and his "raindance".

 

I obviously don't know the guy personally, but I have the impression that he thinks he's God's gift to baseball, and he wants all the attention on him.

[Kimmi]

My question - is Maddon a good manager, a guy who gets the most of out his players?

 

 

I do think he's a good manager and that he gets a lot out of his players. I don't think he's as good as he thinks he is, though.

[Kimmi]

Francona and the org tend to believe that the way to move baserunners is to get hits. Yeah led to a lot of DPs at times - and the Red Sox were often among the league leaders in men left on base - although if you think about it in a backhanded way, both of those are good stats.

 

 

Having a lot of men left on base is often misconstrued as a sign of a bad offensive team. The truth is, however, that leaving a lot of men on base is usually a sign of a good offensive team. Teams can't leave men on base if they're not getting on base.

[Kingface]

Having a lot of men left on base is often misconstrued as a sign of a bad offensive team. The truth is, however, that leaving a lot of men on base is usually a sign of a good offensive team. Teams can't leave men on base if they're not getting on base.

 

Profound statement Kimmi!! I agree!

[sk7326]

I do think he's a good manager and that he gets a lot out of his players. I don't think he's as good as he thinks he is, though.

 

I like him too - although at times you get the sense that he would not tell you that the best way to win games is "get lots of good players"

[seabeachfred]

Francona and the org tend to believe that the way to move baserunners is to get hits. Yeah led to a lot of DPs at times - and the Red Sox were often among the league leaders in men left on base - although if you think about it in a backhanded way, both of those are good stats.

 

SK, I would prefer not to think of LOB's as a good stat but I get what you mean. Let me say right out loud that I'm not a big fan of small ball, bunt runners over, squeeze, etc. However, I do like to use the hit and run and keep the opposition on their toes instead of letting them get all comfortable and just waiting for the ball to be it. Let them squirm and worry about the runners as well as the batter. When you are a threat to steal or hit and run or run and hit, if you're in the field you can't ignore one and just concentrate on the other. Francona never did that much, and BTW, his team right now isn't hitting a lick and his station-to-station baseball philosophy could be costing the Guardians some opportunities to turn base runners into potential runs.....but that is only MY opinion.

[Kimmi]

Profound statement Kimmi!! I agree!

 

I'm well known for my profound statements. LOL

 

You miss me, don't you?

[User Name]

SK, I would prefer not to think of LOB's as a good stat but I get what you mean. Let me say right out loud that I'm not a big fan of small ball, bunt runners over, squeeze, etc. However, I do like to use the hit and run and keep the opposition on their toes instead of letting them get all comfortable and just waiting for the ball to be it. Let them squirm and worry about the runners as well as the batter. When you are a threat to steal or hit and run or run and hit, if you're in the field you can't ignore one and just concentrate on the other. Francona never did that much, and BTW, his team right now isn't hitting a lick and his station-to-station baseball philosophy could be costing the Guardians some opportunities to turn base runners into potential runs.....but that is only MY opinion.

 

Look at the Guardians' roster. With Brantley nursing a sore back, and Bourn a shell of himself, the Guardians are built to play station to station. Are you going to hit and run with a bunch of guys who are both slow as molasses and prone to swinging-and-missing? You play the team they give you.

 

The go-go Sox of 2008 (120 SB), and the fast 2007 team (97 SB) completely contradict your very erroneous notion that Francona was a proponent of playing station-to-station baseball. You can scream that he didn't strategize with baserunning until you are blue in the face, but that doesn't take away the fact that you are wrong. Your recollection is very different from almost everyone else's, and the stats.

[sk7326]

SK, I would prefer not to think of LOB's as a good stat but I get what you mean. Let me say right out loud that I'm not a big fan of small ball, bunt runners over, squeeze, etc. However, I do like to use the hit and run and keep the opposition on their toes instead of letting them get all comfortable and just waiting for the ball to be it. Let them squirm and worry about the runners as well as the batter. When you are a threat to steal or hit and run or run and hit, if you're in the field you can't ignore one and just concentrate on the other. Francona never did that much, and BTW, his team right now isn't hitting a lick and his station-to-station baseball philosophy could be costing the Guardians some opportunities to turn base runners into potential runs.....but that is only MY opinion.

 

LOBs mean you are generating chances - and probably converting them too. If a team gets 15 baserunners a game, leaves 8 a game and hits into 1 double play ... THAT'S STILL SIX RUNS!!

 

Here is the thing - Francona was not against running - he was fervently against making outs. (also why the Red Sox are generally near the bottom in sacrifice bunts) When you have versions of prime Mueller, Ortiz, Ramirez, Pedroia, Youkilis, Varitek and more ... giving your big dogs a chance to do their jobs without risking additional outs is generally sensible. If you have base stealers, straight steals make sense. Hit and runs depend on the guys - because you are taking a decision out of the hitters' hands, and you are basically punting on the possibility of a 3-run homer.

 

Cleveland has a .281 team OBP so far. If they could (and did) run like the 1985 Cardinals - that ain't generating more runs. There is also no number of 3-run homers that can work around a team of Will Middlebrooks' statistically. Their issues are much more fundamental - and something which Francona has to just hope the guys hit their way out of.

 

Holding baserunners I had more of an issue with - although the general philosophy of the Sox I am basically in favor of. Stolen bases are a pain, but if you get the guy at the plate out, it doesn't matter. The cost-benefit of slide steps, extra concentration on the baserunner vs focusing on the guy more likely to deliver the damage (the hitter).

Edited April 19, 2015 by sk7326

[GomesBeard]

I like Farrell but I miss Tito.

[Bellhorn04]

I like Farrell but I miss Tito.

 

I liked Tito too but 2011 was clearly the end. 8 years as Red Sox manager is a long time. He left with a great record.

[Spudboy]

I like Farrell but I miss Tito.

 

Same here. I do not like the way he was treated at the end of 2011. He deserved better.

 

To me, he was the ideal manager for this franchise.

[a700hitter]

Same here. I do not like the way he was treated at the end of 2011. He deserved better.

 

To me, he was the ideal manager for this franchise.

 

He was a players manager, and in the end they showed him no respect

[sk7326]

He was a players manager, and in the end they showed him no respect

 

I don't know if that's true - he protected them in the press, but in Boston what decent boss wouldn't? He basically (and Farrell) was like the boss you'd have in a normal career job. Treat grown ups like grownups. It is hard to say what of the revelations represented actual weird behavior/disrespect and how much was just stuff that would not have been an issue if the team won an additional game. The media in Boston is mostly terrible of course.

[a700hitter]

I don't know if that's true - he protected them in the press, but in Boston what decent boss wouldn't? He basically (and Farrell) was like the boss you'd have in a normal career job. Treat grown ups like grownups. It is hard to say what of the revelations represented actual weird behavior/disrespect and how much was just stuff that would not have been an issue if the team won an additional game. The media in Boston is mostly terrible of course.

 

I am just going by reports at the time. He reportedly told management that he lost control in 2011 and he was pretty hurt by it. He suggested that he was through in Boston.

[Spudboy]

I don't know if that's true - he protected them in the press, but in Boston what decent boss wouldn't? He basically (and Farrell) was like the boss you'd have in a normal career job. Treat grown ups like grownups. It is hard to say what of the revelations represented actual weird behavior/disrespect and how much was just stuff that would not have been an issue if the team won an additional game. The media in Boston is mostly terrible of course.

 

Bill Parcells

[sk7326]

I am just going by reports at the time. He reportedly told management that he lost control in 2011 and he was pretty hurt by it. He suggested that he was through in Boston.

 

I think he was done to be fair - 8 years ib Boston is 95 anywhere else.

[sk7326]

Bill Parcells

 

Different sport - not games every day ... defeat is not a fact of the game ... players are used to be treated like crap from Pop Warner

[Kimmi]

LOBs mean you are generating chances - and probably converting them too. If a team gets 15 baserunners a game, leaves 8 a game and hits into 1 double play ... THAT'S STILL SIX RUNS!!

 

Here is the thing - Francona was not against running - he was fervently against making outs. (also why the Red Sox are generally near the bottom in sacrifice bunts) When you have versions of prime Mueller, Ortiz, Ramirez, Pedroia, Youkilis, Varitek and more ... giving your big dogs a chance to do their jobs without risking additional outs is generally sensible. If you have base stealers, straight steals make sense. Hit and runs depend on the guys - because you are taking a decision out of the hitters' hands, and you are basically punting on the possibility of a 3-run homer.

 

Cleveland has a .281 team OBP so far. If they could (and did) run like the 1985 Cardinals - that ain't generating more runs. There is also no number of 3-run homers that can work around a team of Will Middlebrooks' statistically. Their issues are much more fundamental - and something which Francona has to just hope the guys hit their way out of.

 

Holding baserunners I had more of an issue with - although the general philosophy of the Sox I am basically in favor of. Stolen bases are a pain, but if you get the guy at the plate out, it doesn't matter. The cost-benefit of slide steps, extra concentration on the baserunner vs focusing on the guy more likely to deliver the damage (the hitter).

 

I know I sound like a broken record, but once again I think you are right on the money. I think you should just start adding my name to the end of each of your posts. LOL

[cp176]

"All the negativity in this town sucks." Lest we forget.