Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y?

[iortiz]

They have little value because you honestly (and this is not a personal attack, mind you) overvalue your intelligence and devalue the intelligence and ability of others. Not a good trait to have in the world of business.

Overvalue my intelligence? haha WTF. I'm not claiming to be more or less intelligent at all haha. All I'm saying all along is that they can be easy replaced. As I said before, a decent MBA professional can run any enterprise regardless the size or industry included a MLB team. On the other hand players are not that easy to replace, specially the good ones.

[a700hitter]

You never talk poorly about your players, especially ones you paid 140 million for. And don't get me started on the Lester fish-handshake debacle.

I'm not even sure what this means. The players aren't criticized? Of course they are. Are they to be blamed for having a lousy team? They are part of the team. But what are we going to blame the player for... not being very talented? I don't think they can help that. IMO, by and large the players do the best job that they can. Ocassionally, there is a player who dogs it, and he gets relentless abuse. Those are the exceptions. The FO is responsible for assembling the pieces and assembling the roster. If they don't get the right pieces, it is the responsibility of the FO. Blaming individual players would be like blaming the ingredients in a stew instead of blaming the Chef

[Palodios]

I'm not even sure what this means. The players aren't criticized? Of course they are. Are they to be blamed for having a lousy team? They are part of the team. But what are we going to blame the player for... not being very talented? I don't think they can help that. IMO, by and large the players do the best job that they can. Ocassionally, there is a player who dogs it, and he gets relentless abuse. Those are the exceptions. The FO is responsible for assembling the pieces and assembling the roster. If they don't get the right pieces, it is the responsibility of the FO. Blaming individual players would be like blaming the ingredients in a stew instead of blaming the Chef

 

If you were a professional chef who paid 140 million for a lifetime supply of an ingredient, would you go on a radio show and publicly declare how bad it tastes ?

[a700hitter]

If you were a professional chef who paid 140 million for a lifetime supply of an ingredient, would you go on a radio show and publicly declare how bad it tastes ?

No but if I owned the restaurant and my chef insisted on purchasing and putting the wrong spice in the stew despite my opposition and my customers got sick, I would tell people that the Chef messed up, and I would most likely fire him.

[mvp 78]

I remember that. I was shocked to read it at the time.

 

He said this live on the radio. He drove to the radio station when he disagreed with the hosts!

 

It was really shocking. It made zero sense for him to do that in the offseason prior to 2012.

 

F&M need to do more Sox baiting this offseason if they want this to happen again. They are far too busy having their noses stuck up Indy sportswriters' rears at the moment.

[Spudboy]

I used to respect Felger. About ten years ago when he was a Patriots beat writer for the Herald. I paper, by the way, that I have never respected.

 

Now he is just a major attention whore. Mazz has never had my respect at all. I can't even listen to him between his stupid rants and that obnoxious whiny voice of his.

 

Ugh.

[seabeachfred]

a700 always wonders why I defend Theo and Ben to such great lengths.

 

It is usually because those two have had to succeed despite meddling intervention from an owner and president who clearly don't know what they are doing.

 

A short missive and one of your very best Pal. Your defense of Theo and Ben is your own business and for the reasons you gave they make a lot of sense. I'm not as big as a supporter of those two as you are, but to me your take on Prune Face and Lucchintzy is spot on. For the record, in Baltimore and San Diego LL was also a real meddler who interfered with the running of the team on the field without the background or knowledge to be qualified to do so. With the Orioles the owner then was Edward Bennett Williams who LL admitted was his mentor and patron. EBW also refused to let Larry be the GM even though that's what he wanted to be and the reason the owner gave was that is was not in his makeup or experience to be in such a position. And then he tried the same tack in SD. He left both places with anger and hurt feelings.

 

Henry leans on him like a crutch and the tragedy is that is always seems to happen after something good has happened to the Red Sox. Remember 2004? The next year Lucchino was such a dick that Theo resigned with that gorilla suit. Given control by Henry, the team won a WS two years later and once again there was LL meddling throughout the 2008 season, this time putting his nose in the Ellsbury-Crisp battle in CF as well as how much an injured and out of shape Josh Beckett should be used. In 2013 there was Lucchino back meddling again after another WS win......and each time it seems to take Prune Face two or three years until he manages to put the guy back in his office where he belongs. I only wish some other team offered Larry a top exec job so we could be rid of that bum.

Edited January 27, 2015 by seabeachfred

[Palodios]

Agreed Fred. It always seems like everyone is trying to make moves, and only the GM have made any that make sense. The Red Sox certainly have validated the "One Dumb Owner Rule" in the past.

[Kimmi]

The anti-Luchinno sentiment has been one that has pervaded this board for some time. Several of my favorite posters feel the same way and with great emotion. It is a theory for which I just haven't seen much reliable support. The inner dynamics of an organization is something that is hard to get a handle on. There is one fact that is hard to argue. We one 2 championships with Theo as GM and one with Ben as GM. LL has been here for all three.

 

 

It is a well known fact that Theo's focus has always been on player draft and development and building a team from within. He has said that he would field a team of all home grown players if he thought that was realistic. He did take full responsibity for the Crawford and Lackey signings, but he also said that those signings went against what he felt was sound baseball strategy. He said that there was pressure to make a "sizzling" signing. He said that he gave in to that pressure. I don't know how much clearer it could be.

[Kimmi]

I've responded to a similar post by someone else some time ago. I happened to be in Chicago that summer of 2012 when the Red Sox and Cubs played that three game series. In the Chicago Tribune that Friday Theo was telling the writer that it was his hope to build a young and dynamic team headed by his youthful infield of Rizzo, Pedroia, Iglesias and Middlebrooks and round it out by home grown pitchers. He said he was waylaid by Werner who worried about TV ratings and the lack of "sexy" players---whatever the hell that means---, while Lucchino wanted big splashes of prime free agent players who could put butts in the seats. It was a conflict manufactured in hell and it showed between those disappointing years of 2009-2011. It's a wonder now how Cherington was able to be independent and lucky enough to sign those seemingly average players but great team performers and win a WS with those two baboons lurking around with their half-ass ideas. The problem with those two kooks might still be with us. My take is if you put a winning team on the field you will put butts in the stands and the TV rating will go through the roof. These are Red Sox fans we're talking about, not Seattle, Minnesota, Miami or Cleveland.

 

 

Fred, I don't have a problem with Henry, but when it comes to Lucchino, we agree completely. He is a good businessman, but he needs to keep his nose out of baseball ops. Every time he sticks his nose where it doesn't belong, something goes terribly wrong.

[mvp 78]

Are thrre any Lucchino backers aside from SoxFanForsyth?

[a700hitter]

It is a well known fact that Theo's focus has always been on player draft and development and building a team from within. He has said that he would field a team of all home grown players if he thought that was realistic. He did take full responsibity for the Crawford and Lackey signings, but he also said that those signings went against what he felt was sound baseball strategy. He said that there was pressure to make a "sizzling" signing. He said that he gave in to that pressure. I don't know how much clearer it could be.

The pressure to sign Crawford didn't come from his boss, and the reports and statements at the time were that Theo took up the cause for Crawford. If he didn't believe in Crawford, he would have had excellent cover if he agreed with the owner. It strains credulity that Theo would cave to pressure from LL when JH was on the other side of the issue. If Theo went against his discipline and philosophy, that doesn't mean the "the devil made him do it." People deviate from discipline all the time without being forced to do so. Edited January 27, 2015 by a700hitter

[mvp 78]

Theo kept saying he had to "feed the monster." He either just didn't have a big enough set to say no or actually wanted to sign those guys.

[Bellhorn04]

Are thrre any Lucchino backers aside from SoxFanForsyth?

 

I back Lucchino to a certain extent because he's part of the group that brought us 3 titles. He's also the guy who was responsible for Theo being hired in the first place. I think he's probably done some dumb s***, too.

[a700hitter]

I back Lucchino to a certain extent because he's part of the group that brought us 3 titles. He's also the guy who was responsible for Theo being hired in the first place. I think he's probably done some dumb s***, too.

As you know! I really don't have much regard for any FO suits in sports, but I don't understand the demonization of LL by some fans who are clearly admirers of Theo and Ben. I haven't seen any basis to demonize him. I read that Boss George Steinbrenner didn't like or trust LL. That might actually be a reason for Red Sox fans to like him. Plus, he should be admired for tagging the Yankees as the Evil Empire.

[Bellhorn04]

As you know! I really don't have much regard for any FO suits in sports, but I don't understand the demonization of LL by some fans who are clearly admirers of Theo and Ben. I haven't seen any basis to demonize him. I read that Boss George Steinbrenner didn't like or trust LL. That might actually be a reason for Red Sox fans to like him. Plus, he should be admired for tagging the Yankees as the Evil Empire.

 

The quotes from George S. on Lucchino are classic, hilarious. Without looking it up, I'm pretty sure he went on record to warn John Henry about Larry with stuff like this: 'Watch your back, John. This is not a guy you want in your foxhole.'

 

And of course it was Larry with the 'Evil Empire' stuff.

[Bellhorn04]

Also, I wish I could have seen video of Lucchino at the meeting with Teixiera and Boras. There were rumors that he really went off. I have this picture of him grabbing for Boras's throat when he realizes Boras has brought them there to tell them it's the Yankees who'll be signing his client.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think Steinbrenner was right. Lucchino is a snake.

[iortiz]

Not sure but probably LL is the most hated man in Boston LOL!

[Bellhorn04]

I think Steinbrenner was right. Lucchino is a snake.

 

Based on what that Lucchino has actually done though?

[a700hitter]

Based on what that Lucchino has actually done though?

It is interesting to me that so many people have suc strong negative feelings about him, and from what I can see it is based on very little in the way of verifiable actions by him. As for the Steinbrenner remarks about him, the other part of that story is that JH thought it was one of the most uncomfortable converstaions that he has had, and he thought George's remarks were completely inappropriate.

[sk7326]

Lucchino is a very tough hombre - which makes him enemies. He is also both a baseball guy, but came from a business background, so he is not precisely a baseball guy. What is interesting about him is that he actually has a ton of experience - at running a sports business, which is experience very few guys actually have. So he understands how to build a baseball operation, and how to run a ballpark - but he's not a scout or a GM. So it feels like meddling when he gets into the baseball side, even though he has more credibility in that area than your average corporate suit.

 

I think a lot of his bad rap comes from the idea that he does pay attention to the Red Sox as a media company, and not just as a baseball team. I don't blame him for that - although clearly I care about baseball decisions on their own merit.

[iortiz]

They ain't joking, they are going as the rotation is assembled.

 

http://m.espn.go.com/mlb/story?storyId=12239773

[sk7326]

They ain't joking, they are going as the rotation is assembled.

 

http://m.espn.go.com/mlb/story?storyId=12239773

 

It means they are OPENING THE SEASON with this rotation. And you know what? If the lineup upgrades are real (both the new guys and the guys improving who should improve) - this rotation is plenty good enough to keep them in the race until the deadline. One figures that Cueto could be had - but not now. The Reds still have the pieces of a team that can at least dream of making the playoffs right now. But when that dream fades? Suddenly things change.

 

The Red Sox right now - if healthy - put out a competitive starter every night out, and that should be enough to be in some version of contention. The lack of a true blue #1 will hurt them in October - but to get to October, having significant depth is pretty good. Masterson is the lynchpin here - he was genuinely awful last season. If he can get back to "above-average", the rotation looks a lot better.

[a700hitter]

It means they are OPENING THE SEASON with this rotation. And you know what? If the lineup upgrades are real (both the new guys and the guys improving who should improve) - this rotation is plenty good enough to keep them in the race until the deadline. One figures that Cueto could be had - but not now. The Reds still have the pieces of a team that can at least dream of making the playoffs right now. But when that dream fades? Suddenly things change.

 

The Red Sox right now - if healthy - put out a competitive starter every night out, and that should be enough to be in some version of contention. The lack of a true blue #1 will hurt them in October - but to get to October, having significant depth is pretty good. Masterson is the lynchpin here - he was genuinely awful last season. If he can get back to "above-average", the rotation looks a lot better.

or if Masterson and Buch fall apart out of the gate and Miley and Kelly pitch to career norms, we could be out of the race by the trading deadline.

[sk7326]

or if Masterson and Buch fall apart out of the gate and Miley and Kelly pitch to career norms, we could be out of the race by the trading deadline.

 

If the offense is 12th again, then we're SOL. But the bet is a combination of fixing the offense and just adding more decent pitchers will allay a bunch of that. The team doesn't have to beat Felix Hernandez each of the 162 times out.

 

The staff is generally young-ish and durable. It's not sexy certainly, but a lot of the 71-91 record last year was owed to some very low ceiling guys getting a lot of starts down the stretch.

 

The upside for the 2015 team is a lot less certain than the upside for the 2013 one (which was basically, geez, if only these guys stopped getting hurt).

[a700hitter]

If the offense is 12th again, then we're SOL. But the bet is a combination of fixing the offense and just adding more decent pitchers will allay a bunch of that. The team doesn't have to beat Felix Hernandez each of the 162 times out.

 

The staff is generally young-ish and durable. It's not sexy certainly, but a lot of the 71-91 record last year was owed to some very low ceiling guys getting a lot of starts down the stretch.

 

The upside for the 2015 team is a lot less certain than the upside for the 2013 one (which was basically, geez, if only these guys stopped getting hurt).

It is just not a sure thing that the current pitching will keep the team in the race even with an improved offense. Losing Lackey and Lester is quite a void to fill. The current group is no guarantee to keep us competitive.

 

Also building on pitching during the season by adding an ace isn't that common for the Red Sox. I can't remember when we added that kind of piece to our team mid-season.

[seabeachfred]

On Bosox Board the other day I called out my friends there in a very friendly manner that now was the time to take a stand about our rotation......either come out now and say they are supportive of the rotation as presently constituted and no need to go for that No. 1 pitcher, or make it clear that we need that No. 1 guy. To me my friends, it is useless and ineffective to say after the fact that they should have gotten that ace or take credit that we didn't need such a pitcher when all you were before the season was neutral on the matter. Practicing what I am trying to preach I come out right now and say WE NEED THAT NO. 1 PITCHER, OR AT LEAST A SOLID NO. 2 TO ROUND OUT A ROTATION THAT COULD WIND UP HAVING MORE HOLES IN IT THAN SWISS CHEESE. If we win the division without getting that pitcher I will be elated and more than willing to eat some crow with a sell versed mea culpa. If this thing unravels with what we currently have at present and we find ourselves with another disappointing season, I will at least be deserving of raising some hell and ranting a little.

[Palodios]

Shields is there for the taking. If the Red Sox offered a 4/80 contract with one or two vesting options based on innings, he would probably take it.

 

I am still in the "we need an ace" side of the argument.

[Spudboy]

It means they are OPENING THE SEASON with this rotation. And you know what? If the lineup upgrades are real (both the new guys and the guys improving who should improve) - this rotation is plenty good enough to keep them in the race until the deadline. One figures that Cueto could be had - but not now. The Reds still have the pieces of a team that can at least dream of making the playoffs right now. But when that dream fades? Suddenly things change.

 

The Red Sox right now - if healthy - put out a competitive starter every night out, and that should be enough to be in some version of contention. The lack of a true blue #1 will hurt them in October - but to get to October, having significant depth is pretty good. Masterson is the lynchpin here - he was genuinely awful last season. If he can get back to "above-average", the rotation looks a lot better.

 

I agree that Masterson is a key here. We expect Buch to pretty much be himself but we don't really know what the lingering effects of Masterson's injuries will be and what he will be able to do.

 

I seriously disagree that this team has starting pitching depth. Even if all five current starters remain healthy.