Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y?

[Kimmi]

Also, Common knowledge? Do you have this on the record? Any Evidence? Were u in the decision room when the decisions were taken? Or is it a vox populi/cliche/conjectures/assumptions based? Because I do not have record of this.

 

 

Well, knowing what Theo's philosophy is when it comes building baseball teams, and knowing that Luccino's top priority is putting fans in the seats, the mess that "Theo left the team in" has Lucchino's fingerprints all over it.

 

Theo strongly implied as much after he left. And I believe him.

[iortiz]

I felt pretty good about the team entering the season.

 

I did not expect them to win 97 games, but I expected wins in the low 90s and a good shot at a playoff berth. Once you get to the playoffs, anything can happen. So, it's not like it was nearly impossible for them to win the WS, despite finishing in last place the prior year.

 

Well, if you are talking about 2013 team, it is ok, I will never dispute or question your thoughts that you had at the time. If you feel optimistic about the team currently assembled, it is oks as well and you probably have an assessment based on what you see and stats and its perfectly oks, but I already have made mine, and probably we just disagree and it is oks, no big deal Kim.

 

I think it is great to have an open mind and be humble if you have to change an opinion but at the same time to be firm on your believes and convictions haha.

[Kimmi]

Well, if you are talking about 2013 team, it is ok, I will never dispute or question your thoughts that you had at the time. If you feel optimistic about the team currently assembled, it is oks as well and you probably have an assessment based on what you see and stats and its perfectly oks, but I already have made mine, and probably we just disagree and it is oks, no big deal Kim.

 

I think it is great to have an open mind and be humble if you have to change an opinion but at the same time to be firm on your believes and convictions haha.

 

 

I am optimistic about this year's team as well. I think they will contend, ace or no ace, and have a good shot at making the postseason.

 

Of course, I readily admit that I have been optimistic about every team entering the season since this ownership group took over. I will likely be the last person to give up hope on the season if things do not go well.

[iortiz]

Well, knowing what Theo's philosophy is when it comes building baseball teams, and knowing that Luccino's top priority is putting fans in the seats, the mess that "Theo left the team in" has Lucchino's fingerprints all over it.

 

Theo strongly implied as much after he left. And I believe him.

Well, Theo admitted so many times that all blame after the 2011 collapse was on him since he suggested all the trades and FA signings authorized by his bosses.

Edited January 26, 2015 by iortiz

[a700hitter]

Well, Theo admitted so many times that all blame after the 2011 collapse was on him since he suggested all the trades and FA signings authorized by his bosses.

Theo never shrunk from accountability. He always too responsibility. It was a very admirable quality. Cherington has that same quality.

Edited January 27, 2015 by a700hitter

[iortiz]

The never shrunk from accountability. He always too responsibility. It was a very admirable quality. Cherington has that same quality.

 

Yup, I give them that.

[Kimmi]

Well, Theo admitted so many times that all blame after the 2011 collapse was on him since he suggested all the trades and FA signings authorized by his bosses.

 

 

He accepted responsibility for those moves. He was the GM, after all. But I'm willing to bet that if Lucchino had not asserted his influence, those "splashy" signings would not have happened. It's no secret that Theo and Lucchino had very different philosophies when it came to building a team. Theo's philosophy is so far removed from a "splashy" long term contract that I can't in any way believe he was behind that.

[a700hitter]

He accepted responsibility for those moves. He was the GM, after all. But I'm willing to bet that if Lucchino had not asserted his influence, those "splashy" signings would not have happened. It's no secret that Theo and Lucchino had very different philosophies when it came to building a team. Theo's philosophy is so far removed from a "splashy" long term contract that I can't in any way believe he was behind that.

 

The anti-Luchinno sentiment has been one that has pervaded this board for some time. Several of my favorite posters feel the same way and with great emotion. It is a theory for which I just haven't seen much reliable support. The inner dynamics of an organization is something that is hard to get a handle on. There is one fact that is hard to argue. We one 2 championships with Theo as GM and one with Ben as GM. LL has been here for all three.

[iortiz]

He accepted responsibility for those moves. He was the GM, after all. But I'm willing to bet that if Lucchino had not asserted his influence, those "splashy" signings would not have happened. It's no secret that Theo and Lucchino had very different philosophies when it came to building a team. Theo's philosophy is so far removed from a "splashy" long term contract that I can't in any way believe he was behind that.

Sorry and hopefully you do not take this personal but in this case while you base your opinion on rumours and vox populi I base it on facts which I see, like this. I saw Theo saying this over and over again. The other day BC said that he feels comfortable and oks about the current rotation going forward. Sorry, I will not drink at all that kool aid, will you? and even if you do, as I said, it is oks.

 

Again, do not take me wrong, I'm not a fan of Luchino or Theo or BC or even JH, or any FO executive. They all are greedy and put very little value on the table when a game is played IMO.

[User Name]

Well, knowing what Theo's philosophy is when it comes building baseball teams, and knowing that Luccino's top priority is putting fans in the seats, the mess that "Theo left the team in" has Lucchino's fingerprints all over it.

 

Theo strongly implied as much after he left. And I believe him.

 

Lucchino said it himself. He knows it, as it was posted here multiple times. Playing dumb, he is.

[iortiz]

Lucchino said it himself. He knows it, as it was posted here multiple times. Playing dumb, he is.

 

What did Luchino say exactly?

[a700hitter]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/14/red-sox-owner-john-henry-i-personally-opposed-signing-carl-crawford/

 

From the article:

 

On the other hand, at the time of the Crawford signing Epstein did say that he had to talk ownership into the move and Henry also said during the same interview today that “I would have loved for Theo to be our GM for the next 20 years … I did everything I could personally to make that happen.”

 

And this:

 

Henry said that he ultimately deferred to general manager Theo Epstein and the front office decision-makers...

[iortiz]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/10/14/red-sox-owner-john-henry-i-personally-opposed-signing-carl-crawford/

 

From the article:

 

 

 

And this:

 

I think I saw this as well on ESPNBoston.com.

 

Either way, as I said, FO executives and managers regardless the name/team are commodities to me. They give you little value and could be replaced easily. On the other hand players are specialties who put the real value on the table and hardly replaceable.

Edited January 27, 2015 by iortiz

[seabeachfred]

He accepted responsibility for those moves. He was the GM, after all. But I'm willing to bet that if Lucchino had not asserted his influence, those "splashy" signings would not have happened. It's no secret that Theo and Lucchino had very different philosophies when it came to building a team. Theo's philosophy is so far removed from a "splashy" long term contract that I can't in any way believe he was behind that.

 

I've responded to a similar post by someone else some time ago. I happened to be in Chicago that summer of 2012 when the Red Sox and Cubs played that three game series. In the Chicago Tribune that Friday Theo was telling the writer that it was his hope to build a young and dynamic team headed by his youthful infield of Rizzo, Pedroia, Iglesias and Middlebrooks and round it out by home grown pitchers. He said he was waylaid by Werner who worried about TV ratings and the lack of "sexy" players---whatever the hell that means---, while Lucchino wanted big splashes of prime free agent players who could put butts in the seats. It was a conflict manufactured in hell and it showed between those disappointing years of 2009-2011. It's a wonder now how Cherington was able to be independent and lucky enough to sign those seemingly average players but great team performers and win a WS with those two baboons lurking around with their half-ass ideas. The problem with those two kooks might still be with us. My take is if you put a winning team on the field you will put butts in the stands and the TV rating will go through the roof. These are Red Sox fans we're talking about, not Seattle, Minnesota, Miami or Cleveland.

[mvp 78]

So John Henry didn't want Crawford. Theo didn't want Crawford. So Larry overruled both of them?

[User Name]

I think he convinced Henry.

[mvp 78]

No, John Henry has stated he never wanted Crawford at all. He said this while CC was still here too.

[User Name]

Then Lucchino had a lot more power back then than he does now, and that's almost certainly the reason Theo bailed on the Sox. Now a700 shows up and calls him and idiot blablabla even though not only does he not know the full story, but it makes sense as a literal promotion, and getting out from under a boss you don't see eye to eye with. FO types are people just like the rest of us.

[iortiz]

Then Lucchino had a lot more power back then than he does now, and that's almost certainly the reason Theo bailed on the Sox. Now a700 shows up and calls him and idiot blablabla even though not only does he not know the full story, but it makes sense as a literal promotion, and getting out from under a boss you don't see eye to eye with. FO types are people just like the rest of us.

Nobody is calling him idiot LOL!

 

He is presenting quotes where Theo (who also has accepted himself to want CC at the time) and decision makers were who wanted CC according to JH. Also, nobody is claiming to know the whole story, he is presenting facts based on quotes. On the other hand you are only presenting assumptions of what you believe L did and accusations to a700 which are not even true.

Edited January 27, 2015 by iortiz

[iortiz]

So John Henry didn't want Crawford. Theo didn't want Crawford. So Larry overruled both of them?

 

According to JH, Theo wanted CC.

[Bellhorn04]

Honest Ben Cherington went on record to say he wanted CC.

[Spudboy]

No, John Henry has stated he never wanted Crawford at all. He said this while CC was still here too.

 

I remember that. I was shocked to read it at the time.

[Palodios]

I remember that. I was shocked to read it at the time.

 

a700 always wonders why I defend Theo and Ben to such great lengths.

 

It is usually because those two have had to succeed despite meddling intervention from an owner and president who clearly don't know what they are doing.

[iortiz]

a700 always wonders why I defend Theo and Ben to such great lengths.

 

It is usually because those two have had to succeed despite meddling intervention from an owner and president who clearly don't know what they are doing.

In all fairness, in this case JH opposed to that trade while it was on the record that it was Theo's big move and according to Bell cherries also wanted him....

 

As I said, FO executives have very little value on my book. They are commodities.

Edited January 27, 2015 by iortiz

[Palodios]

Well in all fairness, in this case JH opposed to that trade while it was on the record that it was Theo's big move....

 

As I said, FO executives have very little value on my book. They are commodities.

 

You never talk poorly about your players, especially ones you paid 140 million for. And don't get me started on the Lester fish-handshake debacle.

[iortiz]

You never talk poorly about your players, especially ones you paid 140 million for. And don't get me started on the Lester fish-handshake debacle.

 

In that regard, Yeah! Totally agree, and even if you think that you do not come out and make it public. it's dumb.

Edited January 27, 2015 by iortiz

[iortiz]

... but probably he wanted to wash his hands like Poncio Pilatos hahaha

[User Name]

They have little value because you honestly (and this is not a personal attack, mind you) overvalue your intelligence and devalue the intelligence and ability of others. Not a good trait to have in the world of business.

[a700hitter]

Nobody is calling him idiot LOL!

 

He is presenting quotes where Theo (who also has accepted himself to want CC at the time) and decision makers were who wanted CC according to JH. Also, nobody is claiming to know the whole story, he is presenting facts based on quotes. On the other hand you are only presenting assumptions of what you believe L did and accusations to a700 which are not even true.

He reads my posts and responds to them through an internal filter that distorts the truth. LOL>

[a700hitter]

a700 always wonders why I defend Theo and Ben to such great lengths.

 

It is usually because those two have had to succeed despite meddling intervention from an owner and president who clearly don't know what they are doing.

Did you read the article that I linked earlier and the quotes from that article. JH clearly laid the CC signing on Theo,and he said that Theo made the case despit JH being opposed to the acquisition.