2014 Offseason Thread

[BSN07]

Fenway isn't a really big place for boo-birds for the hometown guys. Bradley Jr. had probably the worst full season that I have seen a Sox player have offensively, and he did not hear too many boos. There was a lot of patience for the kid. Plus, I think people felt bad for him. Middlestinks also didn't suffer through much negative fan reaction. I doubt that Rizzo's growing pains would have been made more painful by the Fenway faithful.

 

Rizzo may not get booed out of town by the fans at Fenway, but the media and large parts of the fan base who don't have time for guys to take 3 seasons to get it together would have had a field day with him.

[User Name]

I can read it now: "Rizzo stinks, another blunder by Ben the Boob"-a700hitter

[a700hitter]

Rizzo may not get booed out of town by the fans at Fenway, but the media and large parts of the fan base who don't have time for guys to take 3 seasons to get it together would have had a field day with him.

Even taking that into account, there was a lot of patience for Bradley at Fenway and in the media. They didn't even address whether he should be sent down until after he was sent down. And what effect could fans that don't go to Fenway have on him?

[mvp 78]

If da FO was as good as you jocksniffers say, they woulda used a bridge year in order to get a high draft pick to take Trout.

[a700hitter]

Bridge year translates into: We are worried that we are going to stink, and we'd like some more time to get our sh*t together.

[Palodios]

Fenway isn't a really big place for boo-birds for the hometown guys. Bradley Jr. had probably the worst full season that I have seen a Sox player have offensively, and he did not hear too many boos. There was a lot of patience for the kid. Plus, I think people felt bad for him. Middlestinks also didn't suffer through much negative fan reaction. I doubt that Rizzo's growing pains would have been made more painful by the Fenway faithful.

 

WMB is in San Diego. Jackie Bradley will start 2015 in AAA before being shipping out in a midseason trade. Lavarnway has been dumped by 4 different teams. Fan reaction isn't what I am talking about here.

 

You'd be killing a 1B prospect hitting .720 with meh defense after 3 years.

[Bellhorn04]

Was 2013 a bridge year?

 

Epstein used the term bridge year for 2010. Has any member of the Sox FO used the term since that year?

[mvp 78]

Was 2013 a bridge year?

 

Epstein used the term bridge year for 2010. Has any member of the Sox FO used the term since that year?

 

Nope. Lucchino even refuted the idea of ever wanting a bridge year:

 

“That’s not been the way we’ve operated,” Lucchino said. “We believe with the kind of market we have, the passion and intensity of our fanbase, and the financial wherewithal that that passion turns into, that we should be able to compete year after year. "

[a700hitter]

WMB is in San Diego. Jackie Bradley will start 2015 in AAA before being shipping out in a midseason trade. Lavarnway has been dumped by 4 different teams. Fan reaction isn't what I am talking about here.

 

You'd be killing a 1B prospect hitting .720 with meh defense after 3 years.

Are you saying that the FO is too impatient?

[Palodios]

Are you saying that the FO is too impatient?

 

Good teams can't carry mediocre prospects for years waiting for them to develop. I don't think it is fair to criticize a team who traded away a prospect that is finally a star in his 4th year in the majors, despite bashing every single prospect who struggles.

[Palodios]

Was 2013 a bridge year?

 

Epstein used the term bridge year for 2010. Has any member of the Sox FO used the term since that year?

 

The new one is "building the next great Red Sox team".

[a700hitter]

Good teams can't carry mediocre prospects for years waiting for them to develop. I don't think it is fair to criticize a team who traded away a prospect that is finally a star in his 4th year in the majors, despite bashing every single prospect who struggles.

So, we can't complain that the FO held onto WMB and Lars Anderson instead of Rizzo? I don't think that you have a solid basis for that one. Can you sell that to yourself?

[mvp 78]

If they really want to build a team that can win year in and year out as they say, they need to keep the Rizzos of the world.

 

I'm just not always sure there is one overarching plan the FO has. Some years they spend, some years they just roll the dice. They move on from some prospects without much of a fight, then sit on other prospects so long that they lose all value. Imo, there are too many people in the front office all pulling for their own agenda. Werner wants the big names. Ben wants the farm system. Pruneface just wants to know what day it is. Darth Lord Larry just wants to see his name in the papers.

[Palodios]

So, we can't complain that the FO held onto WMB and Lars Anderson instead of Rizzo? I don't think that you have a solid basis for that one. Can you sell that to yourself?

 

In hindsight, I would still trade Anthony Rizzo for Adrian Gonzalez. Every single time, I still make that trade.

 

That is the same as if we'd be willing to trade Mookie straight up for Stanton. Ofcourse you say yes to that trade. Would I rather trade the duds? Absolutely. But you don't always have that information at the time.

[a700hitter]

In hindsight, I would still trade Anthony Rizzo for Adrian Gonzalez. Every single time, I still make that trade.

 

That is the same as if we'd be willing to trade Mookie straight up for Stanton. Ofcourse you say yes to that trade. Would I rather trade the duds? Absolutely. But you don't always have that information at the time.

It is their job to know who the duds are. You keep the studs and trade the duds. It's like"buy low sell high " in investing. That's what the good ones get paid to do. Sure it is difficult, but if your money is on the line, you don't want to hear excuses. AGon is not even part of the discussion. The FO foul up was that they chose to keep Lars and assorted other duds and instaed moved Rizzo. Bad move. Bad decision. There is no counter argument.

[Palodios]

It is their job to know who the duds are. You keep the studs and trade the duds. It's like"buy low sell high " in investing. That's what the good ones get paid to do. Sure it is difficult, but if your money is on the line, you don't want to hear excuses. AGon is not even part of the discussion. The FO foul up was that they chose to keep Lars and assorted other duds and instaed moved Rizzo. Bad move. Bad decision. There is no counter argument.

 

In investing, there is no such thing as a sure thing. Just yesterday, there was an article about how Warren Buffet's two prodigies were both beaten by the market.

 

The Red Sox traded 3 prospects. Two were duds. One has had one elite season out of 4. In return, they received the most desired trade target available. A guy you were drooling over.

 

Judging a trade by what you lose, without judging it by what you gain is just plain ridiculous.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Palodios

[cp176]

It is their job to know who the duds are. You keep the studs and trade the duds. It's like"buy low sell high " in investing. That's what the good ones get paid to do. Sure it is difficult, but if your money is on the line, you don't want to hear excuses. AGon is not even part of the discussion. The FO foul up was that they chose to keep Lars and assorted other duds and instaed moved Rizzo. Bad move. Bad decision. There is no counter argument.

 

You aren't wrong, we just don't get do overs as a rule. As good a player as Mookie Betts projects to be, I am willing to bet that even the people who scouted and signed him are a little surprised that he projects as an outfielder. They obviously signed a great athlete. I hope that the Sox don't sell low on JBJ. To this point he quite obviously has not shown that he can hit major league pitching . Still tough to give up on one of the better centerfielders in the game.

[seabeachfred]

If I never had to read the term "ballwasher" again, I'd be so happy.

 

You will never have to if you get your comrade in arms to keep his damn mouth shut where I'm concerned and not respond to my posts with some of his asinine retorts. I'm supposed to be on his ignore list but apparently not. He's on mine and I should be on his. I will not respond to him if he does not respond to me because we agree on nothing.

[User Name]

You know who else looked like he was never going to be able to hit MLB pitching? Carlos Gomez. JBJ doesn't have that kind of power/ speed, but they have a similar Hit/Defense tool.

 

Some guys just take a while to get going. It's easy to make these assesments with the benefit of hinsight.

[User Name]

We can't agree on anything because you're just not very smart Fred. That's a joke btw.

 

But maybe if you just found a way to stop being a condescending prick all the time, i could let it go.

 

In fact, here's what i plan to do. I won't respond to a single one of your posts and wait to see how long you can last without being a dick. As long as you hold out, so will I.

[seabeachfred]

And Fred, with all the stuff you've written on every messageboard from here to the Acadia Water Polo team, I wouldn't get into a war of words with UN. It's not going to be enjoyable and you'll only get your blood pressure up. If you have someone on ignore, just ignore them. Tell your friend to not forward UN's posts if they upset you. Isn't that the reason you have him on ignore in the first place? (If that was me, I'd be more upset with my friend for riling me up than with soneone I'm ignoring. Whatever.)

 

Look, I've got nothing personal against you Fred. Just trying to help not turn this place into a shitstorm.

 

Read my other post mvp......the shitstorm will not develop if those things I mentioned are done. I know he's a good friend of yours as 700 is a good friend of mine. I would like nothing better than to talk Red Sox baseball and have the game threads be one of unity of purpose and personal satisfaction this coming season. So let's see it happen.

[seabeachfred]

LOL Epstein had no idea what he was unleashing that fateful day when he introduced the word 'bridge' to a maniacal fandom.

 

Well Epstein has fled to Chicago and his influence should no longer concern us unless we meet his team in the World Series---say like 2018. What a hoot that would be, the 100th Anniversary of our last encounter with the Cubbies. Unless under dire circumstances we should not be having any bridge years. The Red Sox are a wealthy and big time organization and should contend for a playoff berth EVERY DAMN YEAR---and this year is no exception. We don't have to win every year (ok mvp?) and we won't, but we should contend every season and that includes 2015.

[a700hitter]

In investing, there is no such thing as a sure thing. Just yesterday, there was an article about how Warren Buffet's two prodigies were both beaten by the market.

 

The Red Sox traded 3 prospects. Two were duds. One has had one elite season out of 4. In return, they received the most desired trade target available. A guy you were drooling over.

 

Judging a trade by what you lose, without judging it by what you gain is just plain dumb.

I am not judging the trade. I am judging their ability to judge and develop their own talent. They traded the best ballplayer that has come through their system in recent years at a time when other teams were drooling over Lars.

 

You are arguing in circles. First, you said that that Rizzo would have been booed out of town. When it was pointed out, that Fenway fans don't ride their players too hard you shifted to saying that the fans can't complain about trading a prospect thjat took 3 years to develop when they bash all of the prospects anyway. When it was pointed out that we could complain about trading the wrong prospects your response is that we wanted AGon and you should judge the trade by who we got. You are spinning so fast that I am getting dizzy. Who we got in that trade is irrelelvant to the criticism that I am leveling at them. BTW, AGon was such a great catch that we didn't even keep him for 2 seasons. The criticism is that the Red Sox coveted Lars more than they did Rizzo and that was a mistake. It would have worked out much better if they had traded Lars instead if Rizzo for AGon.

[cp176]

You know who else looked like he was never going to be able to hit MLB pitching? Carlos Gomez. JBJ doesn't have that kind of power/ speed, but they have a similar Hit/Defense tool.

 

Some guys just take a while to get going. It's easy to make these assesments with the benefit of hinsight.

 

I am pulling for jackie. I hope that he has a great spring and proves that he can hit major league pitching. So far he hasn't proven that he can. It will he his job to win not to lose this year. If he hits, he will be a great addition.

[a700hitter]

Carlos Gomez is 6'3" and 220 lbs. Bradley is about 5'9". He will never develop the power that Gomez has. Gomez has more offensive tools -- power and great speed and base stealing ability.

[Bellhorn04]

I am not judging the trade. I am judging their ability to judge and develop their own talent. They traded the best ballplayer that has come through their system in recent years at a time when other teams were drooling over Lars.

 

You are arguing in circles. First, you said that that Rizzo would have been booed out of town. When it was pointed out, that Fenway fans don't ride their players too hard you shifted to saying that the fans can't complain about trading a prospect thjat took 3 years to develop when they bash all of the prospects anyway. When it was pointed out that we could complain about trading the wrong prospects your response is that we wanted AGon and you should judge the trade by who we got. You are spinning so fast that I am getting dizzy. Who we got in that trade is irrelelvant to the criticism that I am leveling at them. BTW, AGon was such a great catch that we didn't even keep him for 2 seasons. The criticism is that the Red Sox coveted Lars more than they did Rizzo and that was a mistake. It would have worked out much better if they had traded Lars instead if Rizzo for AGon.

 

Do we know that San Diego would have taken Lars instead of Rizzo?

[Palodios]

You are arguing in circles. First, you said that that Rizzo would have been booed out of town. When it was pointed out, that Fenway fans don't ride their players too hard you shifted to saying that the fans can't complain about trading a prospect thjat took 3 years to develop when they bash all of the prospects anyway. When it was pointed out that we could complain about trading the wrong prospects your response is that we wanted AGon and you should judge the trade by who we got. You are spinning so fast that I am getting dizzy. Who we got in that trade is irrelelvant to the criticism that I am leveling at them. BTW, AGon was such a great catch that we didn't even keep him for 2 seasons. The criticism is that the Red Sox coveted Lars more than they did Rizzo and that was a mistake. It would have worked out much better if they had traded Lars instead if Rizzo.

 

I'm not trying to shift my initial point, just defending against your strawmen so let me get back to my initial point.

 

If you saw a 1st basemen prospect putting up a .720 OPS for 3 years, you would be among the first ones asking for his head.

Because of that, its completely unfair for you to then criticize the FO for trading him before the 4th year.

 

They're damned if they trade, and damned if they don't trade. There is zero chance for them to win your favor.

[seabeachfred]

Although our farm is highly touted, Who has our farm team actually produced though over the past 2-3 years? Xander - still a big questionmark, Bradley Jr - can't hit ML pitching at all, Vazquez - great glove, mediocre bat, Middlebrooks - shipped off as a bust. I can't think of anybody. This isn't like last time we had championship hopes when we promoted studs like Pedroia, Ellsbury, Lester, Buccholz all around the same time.

 

PS yeah Buccholz isn't exactly a stud now, but he performed very well on occasion and looked like one earlier in his career.

 

You're right vj, but keep your eyes peeled for Mookie Betts, Blake Swihart and Henry Owens. I think we'll be very pleased with those three unless Cherington has a brain cramp and trades them. But you're right. None of the recent suspects have been worth a damn. Many of us believed Bradley might be but after what I saw of him in ST last March I became convinced that this guy was never going to hit. I was deeply disappointed in Middlebrooks because I was high on him and hate to be so wrong on someone, but I was. As for Bogey, most of you are still high on him. He could go either way in my opinion. However, we bulked up offensively with two hammers this winter and three decent pitchers. If we can get that ace we should contend for the AL East Title. Last to first to last to first.....I kind of like the ring to it.

[a700hitter]

Do we know that San Diego would have taken Lars instead of Rizzo?

My recollection is that Lars was the more highly rated prospect, so why would they turn him down.

[User Name]

The Red Sox made their annual announcement of front office personnel changes today, and among the most significant changes is the creation of a department of behavioral health, writes Alex Speier of the Boston Globe. The Red Sox will hire Dr. Richard Ginsburg as the department head, and he will pair with former Major Leaguer Bob Tewksbury, who served as a mental skills coach with Boston from 2005-13. Tewksbury left the club for a year to work with the MLBPA, and Speier writes that his absence was noticed by young players such as Jackie Bradley Jr. and Xander Bogaerts as they struggled to transition to everyday roles. Said GM Ben Cherington of the new department: “We’re trying to take care of the body as well as we possibly can… Health extends past the body, but it’s all related. … We’re really just trying to help players be as healthy as they possibly can be, physically and mentally.”

 

With a couple of headcases on the team (Hanley, Buchholz) and a bunch of young kids (XB, Vasquez, half the BP) this may be a pretty important step for the Sox. Other teams (like the Brewers) excel at unblocking the mental issues some of their players may have (with Carlos Gomez being a notable example) while the Sox seem like they're just terrible at handling players with fragile egos or mental blocks (Daniel Bard, Buccholz). It's easy to call players prima donnas or whatever from the comfort of one's couch, but this game takes a massive mental toll. Most guys who are out of the game at a young age are usually driven out by their minds instead of their bodies.