Main Reason for WS Championship?

[Thunder]

After a day of hearing from Yankees fans and even a few Sox fans that the only reason we won is because of the Marathon Bombings, I thought about it closely and decided to ask the question. What is the main reason why the Sox won the World Series? You can make a strong case for all of the options in the poll. You can also vote for more than one. Careful, results are public. Edited October 31, 2013 by Thunder

[redsoxrules]

Pitching Pitching Pitching.

This team had a great offense during the season but was shut down in the playoffs aside from a couple of games and their pitching kept them in EVERY game except one.

[Station 13]

Go check OJ's post how incredible our pitching was in the playoff.

[Navafan29]

Consistency won the regular season. Clutch pitching and clutch hitting won the postseason.

[Behindenemylines]

Other then Papi no one else was lighting it up with the bat. I think the team batting average for the playoffs was in the low .200s. It was the Sox pitching that shut down the Cards offensive that won this Championship. Lester is now our ace!

[Wasatch]

I believe it was the combo of Farrell and Club House Mentality.

[VA Sox Fan]

Cherington, chemistry, TEAM contributions. Pitching and defense. Ownership.

[wyo-sox]

It's never one thing. Combo of all.

[Dojji]

So who else voted for everything?

 

if I had to pick one, it would be "other." The main reason we won is that ownership got us back to what wins, and we got lucky that everything clicked back together quickly.

 

Ownership spent a couple years forgetting what got them where they are making the big market mistakes of trying to force the team to win, I ranted on this subject repeatedly at the time it was happening. To their credit and to my delight the ownership itself took stock and applied a humility you never see in billionaires. It takes some real character to take honest stock of the situation and blame the guy in the mirror. It took only one year of humiliation for them to figure out what the problem was and fix the problem at its actual root -- themselves. Fortunately for us, the character we see in the players springs from the ownership and flows downhill from there, which is the best possible way to lead any group of people, be it a ballteam or anything else.

 

One major shakeup later, they fixed what was broken, and here we are, and I couldn't be happier.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Dojji

[jung]

Fortunately for us, the character we see in the players springs from the ownership and flows downhill from there, which is the best possible way to lead any group of people, be it a ballteam or anything else.

 

One major shakeup later, they fixed what was broken, and here we are, and I couldn't be happier.

 

Whata????? You have got to be kidding me. The character of the players flows from the owners. Who...what character?

[Dojji]

You don't think ownership has an impact? There's a huge and telling difference between organizations who know what they are trying to be and franchises that don't.

[sk7326]

The return to Farrell and Cherington had a role ...

 

But so did:

 

29 extra starts of John Lackey, the 2009ish version

60 extra games of Jacoby Ellsbury at an All-Star level

19 extra games of Dustin Pedroia at his normal level

47 extra games of David Ortiz at his revamped level

50 fewer games started by guys named Aaron Cook, fresh from TJ Daisuke Matuzaka, Franklin Morales, Zach Stewart and Daniel Bard

 

Lester, Buchholz, Peavy, Lackey, Dempster and Doubront combined for 144 of their 162 starts. So for basically 7 of 8 days, we were wheeling out somebody who was more or less, somebody that was in our planned rotation

 

A lot is made of the new guys, and they all had contributions. But a lot of the title came from the stalwarts just being able to play.

[Bellhorn04]

Here's my take.

 

(Not necessarily in order)

 

1) Farrell, Nieves and the rest of the new coaches.

2) The perfect additions - Napoli, Victorino, Drew, Gomes, Ross, Uehara.

3) The resurgence of Lester and Lackey.

4) David Ortiz still a monster.

5) Good fortune with injuries.

[Bellhorn04]

What's hard to define is that this team had that certain magic ability to WIN GAMES. They played hard for 9 innings just about every time out, they were resilient, and they had different guys stepping up at different times to deliver the timely hits or the crucial outs. Edited November 1, 2013 by Bellhorn04

[jung]

You don't think ownership has an impact? There's a huge and telling difference between organizations who know what they are trying to be and franchises that don't.

 

Yea they had a role. They finally figured out that they did not have any idea what the f*** they where doing, put meddlesome Lucchino in a cage and threw away the key and allowed the people in baseball operations to do their jobs.

 

Sure they told Charrington to return the club to respectability. What the hell else were they going to tell him to do? By then they had already dragged it through the mud so much that you could hardly recognize it any longer. They had hand picked...let me repeat that so it sinks in...hand picked Bobby V to manage the team, the equivalent of handing the crown jewels to a loan shark and satisfied themselves with the special of the Fenway week....this week bats, next week bricks...hell maybe we can sell all the bricks replacing each of the real bricks with plastic bricks until the whole f***ing thing just falls down around our ears.

 

That frisbee John Henry had left too much control in the hands of twiddle dee and twiddle dumb, Lucchino and Warner.

Lucchino is a meddlesome, micromanager that can't leave anything alone yet will leave the guy he usurped to twist slowy in the wind. Warner? I think I would need a very hot bath after nothing more significant than a handshake. As for Henry himself......a lost child of the sixties and seventies still trying to find Woodstock....probably to buy it. In fact he is probably trying to sail his yacht up Rt 375 to upstate NY. "First mate, pay that toll". By the time Henry finally climbed down off the poop deck to have a look around the old ball yard, all the damage had already been done.

 

Ballplayers and owners have nothing in common, least of all character. Baseball team owners throughout history have been some of the most diabolical creatures known to man, their lack of character generally only surpassed by their stupidity.

 

Charrington did a fantastic job bringing in high character guys on short contracts for long money as a means to wash the scum off the Fenway walls. However even Charrington could not have known that he was mating together enough veterans coming in with much to prove with Red Sox veterans that had lived through the mess of 2012 and had committed themselves to washing their uniforms clean of that stench and youngsters dependent on the vets to get them through the season. The players are far and away most responsible for the 2013 championship and nothing about them flowed from ownership with the exception of ownership for its own reasons of self preservation chartering Charrington with the task of returning the team to respectability.

 

Guys with contracts in baseball can just about do whatever they choose to do. The Sox players themselves chose to play with pride and character, first adopting and then never abandoning an offensive process that in and off itself required self sacrifice for the good of the team. Charrington and Farrell and the coaches did a terrific job but make no mistake about it, the players themselves are the group most responsible for the 2013 championship. If anything Farrell gave the players the freedom to mold themselves into a team in the truest sense of the word...something wing nut V would never have allowed to happen. Hell V would not even tell them when they were going to play, choosing to keep players completely under his control like baby chicks in his nest with their beaks open and their necks stretched hoping for a morsel from mommy.

[sk7326]

You have to take the good with the bad with ownership in this case. After all the previous owners were the driving force behind the Jimmy Fund while simultaneously displaying a hideous record in terms of integrating African-American players into the team. Folks are complicated.

 

These guys - just by the results in all the measurable ways - have been the best ownership this team has had. But certainly it has not been perfect - they clearly see the Red Sox as essentially a ballpark, and a TV channel, with the team sort of coming along with it. But that said, they could have run this cheaply like Jeffrey Loria does. The money has largely been in the product, and with the exception of one season, the results have been hard to argue with. After all, the Red Sox are the only 3-time champion in the bigs during their ownership run, and only the Cardinals have won more pennants.

 

The mistakes they have made have been consistent with folks who run a TV property - too much attention to flash instead of recognizing that winning is the best of the cures (and if there is flash - that is have some heft behind it, like 1999 Pedro), an overreaction to minute by minute fluctuations (the bloodletting after the 2011 season). Remarkably, because of the Dodgers, and because of the availability of a lot of pieces of the old regime - they were able to put the toothpaste back into the tube. An amazing story all around.

[jung]

You have to take the good with the bad with ownership in this case. After all the previous owners were the driving force behind the Jimmy Fund while simultaneously displaying a hideous record in terms of integrating African-American players into the team. Folks are complicated.

 

These guys - just by the results in all the measurable ways - have been the best ownership this team has had. But certainly it has not been perfect - they clearly see the Red Sox as essentially a ballpark, and a TV channel, with the team sort of coming along with it. But that said, they could have run this cheaply like Jeffrey Loria does. The money has largely been in the product, and with the exception of one season, the results have been hard to argue with. After all, the Red Sox are the only 3-time champion in the bigs during their ownership run, and only the Cardinals have won more pennants.

 

The mistakes they have made have been consistent with folks who run a TV property - too much attention to flash instead of recognizing that winning is the best of the cures (and if there is flash - that is have some heft behind it, like 1999 Pedro), an overreaction to minute by minute fluctuations (the bloodletting after the 2011 season). Remarkably, because of the Dodgers, and because of the availability of a lot of pieces of the old regime - they were able to put the toothpaste back into the tube. An amazing story all around.

 

Completely understood....the point is the players put this championship together or at least were far and way the most important component of having done so. Next I would credit the front office for having constructed the team. Next I would credit Farrell and the coaching staff for giving the players the freedom to meld as a team and for providing assistance and direction where needed. Finally the owners most specifically Henry for coming down out of the clouds and pushing the entire ownership group especially Lucchino off to the side when it came to things baseball to allow the baseball people to handle the baseball team without interference from the business end of the business.

 

and

 

No, I do not accept the notion that the owners had anything to do with character exhibited by the players other than in providing the aforementioned marching orders to Charrington to restore the team's credibility and respectability.

[Dojji]

Sure they told Charrington to return the club to respectability. What the hell else were they going to tell him to do? By then they had already dragged it through the mud so much that you could hardly recognize it any longer. They had hand picked...let me repeat that so it sinks in...hand picked Bobby V to manage the team, the equivalent of handing the crown jewels to a loan shark and satisfied themselves with the special of the Fenway week....this week bats, next week bricks...hell maybe we can sell all the bricks replacing each of the real bricks with plastic bricks until the whole f***ing thing just falls down around our ears.

 

See, here's the thing, Jung, the answer to "what else they were going to do?" is easy: Continue to derp around making all the classic big market mistakes like they'd done the prior 2-3 years.

 

You're talking about ownership here. Ownership isn't always accountable. The fact that Henry et al were able to realize they were the problem and make themselves accountable is the pebble that caused the landslide that is this World Series. It's a first cause of a lot of other things the franchise got right this year that they'd been getting wrong before.

 

And that's why ownership really does set the culture of a franchise. Choosing to hold themselves accountable made everyone accountable, and that accomplished only good things all the way down the chain.

[Go Sawks]

 

This man, this moment, is the main reason we won.

Edited November 1, 2013 by Go Sawks!

[sk7326]

Completely understood....the point is the players put this championship together or at least were far and way the most important component of having done so. Next I would credit the front office for having constructed the team. Next I would credit Farrell and the coaching staff for giving the players the freedom to meld as a team and for providing assistance and direction where needed. Finally the owners most specifically Henry for coming down out of the clouds and pushing the entire ownership group especially Lucchino off to the side when it came to things baseball to allow the baseball people to handle the baseball team without interference from the business end of the business.

 

and

 

No, I do not accept the notion that the owners had anything to do with character exhibited by the players other than in providing the aforementioned marching orders to Charrington to restore the team's credibility and respectability.

 

Oh I agree there - the owners did not suddenly make the players healthy. They did not restore character, integrity whatever. But they did figure out that they (more or less) had tried to fix something which wasn't really broken.

 

They were lucky that somebody intimately familiar with what had worked was still in the front office. And they were lucky that the GM's most preferred manager was available too. As far as where the character and chemistry come from? I attribute that to the incumbents - it was hard to really buy fully the idea that a team that still had Ortiz, Lester, Pedroia on it, were a bunch of crybabies, or that Adrian Gonzalez turned the former into bowls of mush. After all, if you think Petey set the tone this year, then he must have in 2011-12 as well. There was a lot of "been there" on this roster, and it couldn't have hurt. I think you add to that a good start, and the group can develop that mutual trust that they can do this. Winning begets winning in that way.

[jung]

See, here's the thing, Jung, the answer to "what else they were going to do?" is easy: Continue to derp around making all the classic big market mistakes like they'd done the prior 2-3 years.

 

You're talking about ownership here. Ownership isn't always accountable. The fact that Henry et al were able to realize they were the problem and make themselves accountable is the pebble that caused the landslide that is this World Series. It's a first cause of a lot of other things the franchise got right this year that they'd been getting wrong before.

 

And that's why ownership really does set the culture of a franchise. Choosing to hold themselves accountable made everyone accountable, and that accomplished only good things all the way down the chain.

 

Fine you want to credit them for being the pebble. I can buy that...they were the pebble...and that is about where it ends...but that is not the same thing as creating a culture nor even setting the tone to create a culture. Any bunch of knuckleheads that dreams up a ride on Henry's yacht and a set of headphones as a means to try to bond with the players has no clue about creating a positive culture nor even setting the tone for one.

 

In fact, if Cherrington wanted to make a few big market moves, I think they would have allowed him to do so if only because they had screwed up so badly that they simply had no credibility even to themselves at that point. And I am not going to give them that much credit for finally realizing how badly they had screwed up....a five year old could have figured that one out. They might have made BC explain why said big market team move fit with the concept of restoring respectability to the team but beyond that, I think they would have let him have his head.

 

As for this ownership group being superior to what we had in the past, it was not until Harrington, Mrs Yawkey and that whole bunch were finally out that Tom Yawkey, one of the worst owners of all time was not running the team from the grave. You know how long that was before that whole miserable crew was finally outta' here? So I can buy this group being better but anything would be better than anything associated with with Tom Yawkey. Maybe the crook that preceded Yawkey was worse, but not by much.

Edited November 1, 2013 by jung

[Youk Of The Nation]

1. Cherington

2. Koji

3. Koji

4. Koji

5. Everyone else

6. Koji again

7. Koji

[jung]

Pedey was there in 2011 and 2012 for sure but he did not have the kind of position within the team yet and the guys that did, like Beckett and even Tek were not doing it any good. I think Pedey had it in 2012 but got set up by V and Youk. He was forced into an ugly spot just as the season was getting going and I think he knew right away that there was no way to "win" either on the field or in the clubhouse given the dynamics surrounding that team. Plus I would bet he was rightly pissed for having been put in that situation. On the other hand, I would be willing to bet the mortgage that complete freaking nut case V was laughing the entire time because he just loved stirring the pot, loved seeing people scramble, frustrated and pissed off and did not even distinguish between just anybody and his own team in that regard. How in the name of all that is holy anybody could have interviewed that man and then with a straight face said, "Boy this is our guy" is completely beyond my comprehension.

[Whatsinaname]

 

This man, this moment, is the main reason we won.

 

yep, Steve Horgan gets my vote too.

 

Vote 1 Horgan

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

1. Cherington

2. Koji

3. Koji

4. Koji

5. Everyone else

6. Koji again

7. Koji

 

Yeah I was going to vote for Koji but it wasn't an option. One of the main reasons I didn't see a championship this year was the closer situation. Every team who has ever advanced in the playoffs had that guy. When our answer was terrible, then went down for the year, and then the "other" closer went down for the second time in 2 years I figured we were playing for next year. Nobody expected Koji to put up historic numbers but he did and was a huge reason we are where we are.

[sk7326]

Well Bobby V did have a good run with the Mets and has won a lot in a lot of places, usually with ragtag sort of outfits. Definitely played mindgames and such - like your Billy Martins or whatnot. I actually did not mind the hiring - certainly if you are going to run off Tito, bringing in an anti-Tito is the only sane thing to do. If you wanted to change the culture of a coaching staff built on making the clubhouse seem like a normal place to function, then bring in a guy who does the opposite and keeps people on high alert. I was expecting the players to be knocked off kilter - but I did not expect him to be so unprepared. I don't think he put that much effort into the gig this time around. I was not sure there was a master plan. Certainly his coaches did not understand it. At the same time, Bobby does have a right to note that his team was obliterated by injuries and "aging", especially Youk and Beckett. Basically, the team's best hitter and arguable best pitcher turned into replacement level chum overnight. He was dealt an awful hand, which he proceeded to play very very badly.

 

I am not sure whether the leadership on a club (since this is a job like anybody else's) is as simple as Pedroia not having standing - a former MVP always has standing. And professionals have a knowledge of which guys are locker room lawyers and which actually deserve respect (often the guy playing through injuries for one), and adjust accordingly. It is hard to picture a pro like Adrian Gonzalez turning a bunch of championship tested pros into five year olds. The problems were probably much more mundane than that. The no-win dynamics seem more related to the guys who couldn't play more than anything that methaphysical.

 

I tend to look at chemistry as a trailer, not a leader. It's like any workplace - getting along with your co-workers is important, but secondary to actually being good at the job. The chemistry comes with demonstrated success. If the Red Sox did not get early results with the 2013 changes (and results might be more than W/L), I suspect that the same rumblings you got in 2012 would have come.

In a lot of ways the Farrell hiring and results mirror what happened when Boston hired Grady in 2002. In both of those cases, you had the franchise hiring former assistants to settle some disruptive circumstances. Farrell I think was able to foster credibility because the senior members of the team knew him already. Lester, Papi, Pedroia knew and respected him. Beyeler and Lovullo were both former PawSox managers. It was the opposite of an "adjustment" - it was just going back to a work environment they were already familiar with. And when the stalwarts have bought in, the new guys tend to fall into line.

[jung]

I just don't think Pedey would have stepped over Tek which is part of the problem with putting a C on a guy's shirt. I never thought that worked for a baseball team. By 2012 all that was gone and you could depend on the natural club leaders coming forward. However, V made it an impossible position to be in and the V of 2012 was not the V of the Mets days. V had lost a ton off his FB. The world of V was far more important to him than anything including maintaining a manager's job. I do not think anybody in their right mind will offer V an MLB managers job again which says buckets for how good or bad a hire that was in 2012. It was a horrendous hire. The days of a manager being able to play head games with his players and speak in tongues like that and expect it to be the player's responsibility to "understand" what the f*** he is talking about are long long gone.

[Bellhorn04]

You have to take the good with the bad with ownership in this case. After all the previous owners were the driving force behind the Jimmy Fund while simultaneously displaying a hideous record in terms of integrating African-American players into the team. Folks are complicated.

 

These guys - just by the results in all the measurable ways - have been the best ownership this team has had. But certainly it has not been perfect - they clearly see the Red Sox as essentially a ballpark, and a TV channel, with the team sort of coming along with it. But that said, they could have run this cheaply like Jeffrey Loria does. The money has largely been in the product, and with the exception of one season, the results have been hard to argue with. After all, the Red Sox are the only 3-time champion in the bigs during their ownership run, and only the Cardinals have won more pennants.

 

The mistakes they have made have been consistent with folks who run a TV property - too much attention to flash instead of recognizing that winning is the best of the cures (and if there is flash - that is have some heft behind it, like 1999 Pedro), an overreaction to minute by minute fluctuations (the bloodletting after the 2011 season). Remarkably, because of the Dodgers, and because of the availability of a lot of pieces of the old regime - they were able to put the toothpaste back into the tube. An amazing story all around.

 

You won't ever hear me complain about the current Red Sox ownership.

 

12 years of ownership - 3 championships.

Yankees in same time frame - 1 championship.

[Dojji]

Fine you want to credit them for being the pebble. I can buy that...they were the pebble...and that is about where it ends..

 

No, Jung, no. that is not where it ends. That is never where it ends. Fundamental fiirst causes pervade every decision made in the chain after they get a ball rolling, and that decision by ownership is a fundamental first cause.

[seabeachfred]

No, Jung, no. that is not where it ends. That is never where it ends. Fundamental fiirst causes pervade every decision made in the chain after they get a ball rolling, and that decision by ownership is a fundamental first cause.

 

The ownership lost their way from 2008 on and seem to worry more about TV ratings and getting players with "sex appeal" (see Werner and Lucchino) that winning. Besides, Lucchino was a damn meddler who for some reason was hardly heard from this season. Someone, either Henry, or a demand by Cherington to let he and Farrell run the baseball operation, led to a sea change this season. The results speak for themselves. Keep Lucchino out of baseball operations and limit what Werner does to what he is supposed to do. If they operate that way we have some of the best leadership in baseball. We had lost that edge for a few seasons.