Gomes Vs. Nava

[marklmw]

If there is "no way of knowing" how can you say what the correct decision is?

 

I get it. Do you? You seem to be saying numerous things that amount to "we don't know what would've happened, but we do know Farrell was wrong." That makes no sense.

 

I do get it ... based on the 2013 season and the playoffs Nava should have as many and possibly more plate appearances as Gomes. End of story. Gomes has failed at the plate while Nava is watching him from the bench. One last time ... Nava hit .320 against RHP for the 2013 season. The Sox have faced all RHP's in the Detroit Series and 2 RHP's in the Card's series ... why is this so hard for you to understand. Why is Farrell playing Papi? Why?

[marklmw]

If there is "no way of knowing" how can you say what the correct decision is?

 

I get it. Do you? You seem to be saying numerous things that amount to "we don't know what would've happened, but we do know Farrell was wrong." That makes no sense.

 

I am not saying numerous things ... I am stating the obvious and have yet to change my position.

You pick the best players to put on the field based on their body of work. I want for you to compare Gomes vs. Nava against RHP for the entire 2013 season and tell me that you start Gomes because he lights a fire ... give me a break. A player does not light any fires unless he gets on base. Can the Sox still win games with a player not hitting jack ... of course they can.

[sk7326]

If there is "no way of knowing" how can you say what the correct decision is?

 

I get it. Do you? You seem to be saying numerous things that amount to "we don't know what would've happened, but we do know Farrell was wrong." That makes no sense.

 

I am with Mark here. Nobody can predict the future - so I think you have to be careful when looking purely at results to evaluate whether a mistake was made. After all, if a #1 overall pick with no medical red flags wrecks his knee in the first workout - that did not make the pick incorrect, just s***** luck.

 

I agree, we can't say "Farrell was wrong", but we can say that he has made a lower probability choice offensively with Nava. Now could he justify it by saying Gomes gives us a better chance defensively? Yes - but he hasn't. As such, the decision can be criticized, no doubt. I mean the information for any decision here is imperfect - the question is whether you are reading the information you DO have correctly? I think you can argue that Farrell has not with the LF decision.

[mvp 78]

You can make a case Nava should have started game 1. With Wacha's reverse splits, Gomes should have started game 2.

 

So how would the Sox be better off right now? They'd still be 1-1 this series.

 

Last night, someone said "if Nava started every game against the Tigers, they would have swept the Tigers." Really? Nava started 2 games in that series and lost!

[sk7326]

You can make a case Nava should have started game 1. With Wacha's reverse splits, Gomes should have started game 2.

 

So how would the Sox be better off right now? They'd still be 1-1 this series.

 

Last night, someone said "if Nava started every game against the Tigers, they would have swept the Tigers." Really? Nava started 2 games in that series and lost!

 

i agree - that part is silly - I don't think LF decision has been correct per se ... but clearly (as Gomes' "record" shows) it has not really been a big factor one way or the other.

[Bellhorn04]

It was a different manager who got into the other WS.

 

I was referring to 2012 and 2013, that's 2 LCS and a WS for Matheney.

[Station 13]

Nava started 2 games in that series and lost!

 

Can you just stop with this narrative?

[Bellhorn04]

Can you just stop with this narrative?

 

I don't see much difference between him repeating that and other people repeating that Nava is better vs. RHP.

[mvp 78]

i agree - that part is silly - I don't think LF decision has been correct per se ... but clearly (as Gomes' "record" shows) it has not really been a big factor one way or the other.

 

That's all my point is.

 

Nava should start games 3 and 4. You can complain about Gomes starting all you want, but the fact of the matter is that they were winning. Starting Nava every game he "should have" doesn't get them to a better record than what they already have.

[mvp 78]

I don't see much difference between him repeating that and other people repeating that Nava is better vs. RHP.

 

I'll raise a Molson in your honor this weekend.

[redsoxfan3]

Can you just stop with this narrative?

 

He has a point to what he was referring to.

 

Moving forward in the series, Gomes is 0-7 in two games and Nava is 1-2 in two pinch hit at-bats. It would be more than fair to start Nava in game 3 with another righty. A lot probably has to depend on who is going to hit behind Big Papi. Obviously, with Big Papi's bat right now, he is starting game 3 against a righty. We lose Napoli in the lineup and that means Nava is probably hitting 5th.

 

The other argument is to look at Kelly's splits. Against righties, hitters are hitting .270. Against lefties, hitters are batting .245. Not to mention, hitters are hitting .279 against him in St. Louis as opposed to .237 on the road. Gomes obviously has the better splits against lefties and Nava has the better splits against righties. This will be a tough decision for Farrell to make. I think he could justify it either way with Kelly having better success against lefties. Gomes is more of a power threat, but Nava has had more success against righties.

 

We are going to be at a disadvantage without Napoli in the lineup, even without his high strikeout rate in the lineup, we lose a huge power threat in the middle of the lineup. The positive is that he will be able to pinch-hit when needed.

[sk7326]

He has a point to what he was referring to.

 

Moving forward in the series, Gomes is 0-7 in two games and Nava is 1-2 in two pinch hit at-bats. It would be more than fair to start Nava in game 3 with another righty. A lot probably has to depend on who is going to hit behind Big Papi. Obviously, with Big Papi's bat right now, he is starting game 3 against a righty. We lose Napoli in the lineup and that means Nava is probably hitting 5th.

 

The other argument is to look at Kelly's splits. Against righties, hitters are hitting .270. Against lefties, hitters are batting .245. Not to mention, hitters are hitting .279 against him in St. Louis as opposed to .237 on the road. Gomes obviously has the better splits against lefties and Nava has the better splits against righties. This will be a tough decision for Farrell to make. I think he could justify it either way with Kelly having better success against lefties. Gomes is more of a power threat, but Nava has had more success against righties.

 

We are going to be at a disadvantage without Napoli in the lineup, even without his high strikeout rate in the lineup, we lose a huge power threat in the middle of the lineup. The positive is that he will be able to pinch-hit when needed.

 

At the same time, we are going into a pitcher's park which does not allow a ton of homers in general - so it is a little easier to go to a gap hitter like Nava in this circumstance. You can hope Gomes has a 3-run homer inside of him going over the monstah or whatever. I think in Saint Louis, something with a bit more consistency could be in order.

 

One thing that is true weirdly (and I regret the appeal to authority here) ... despite a pitching coach background, it has been the shuffling of position players in and out where Farrell has been most effective. I can have minor quibbles with Gomes or Nava, but this area his moves have been sound. The pitching staff has been the shakier part of his roster management (and this has been true since April).

[User Name]

I don't see much difference between him repeating that and other people repeating that Nava is better vs. RHP.

 

Station shouldn't tell anyone to stop anything as long as he has an avatar specifically tailored to bother other posters. He can go f*** himself.

 

On topic, this argument is getting kinda silly. It really wouldn't have made much of a difference, and Nava is starting game 3.

[Dojji]

I don't see much difference between him repeating that and other people repeating that Nava is better vs. RHP.

 

The difference is that Nava is directly responsible for being good vs RHP. Gomes is not directly responsible for his team winning all those games.

 

Of course, we do need to consider Mike Carp as a viable third option here. He was very, very good against RHP himself and boasts more power.

[seabeachfred]

You can make a case Nava should have started game 1. With Wacha's reverse splits, Gomes should have started game 2.

 

So how would the Sox be better off right now? They'd still be 1-1 this series.

 

Last night, someone said "if Nava started every game against the Tigers, they would have swept the Tigers." Really? Nava started 2 games in that series and lost!

 

Just got back from Boston mvp so I'm a little late getting in on this thread, but I would want Nava in the lineup tomorrow against the Cardinals. First of all with no DH we have one of our big run producers out of action. With Napoli on the pine we need some hitting in the lineup. If you looked at the two box scores from the first two games we got five and four hits.......and we really have to do better than that. We also need to get Drew out of that lineup. He is a total offensive black hole and now with the pitcher hitting (or flailing) we cannot afford to give away outs. Personally I would like to see Middlebrooks at third, Bogaerts at short and Nava in left. I know the chorus is coming....rookie this or rookie that. However, wasn't the Cardinal pitcher Wacha who beat us yesterday a rookie, and didn't John

Lackey a rookie when he pitched the seventh game of the 2002 World Series and won it for the Angels. I think talent can trump experience at times and I think this may be one of those times.

 

Saw our AL clincher last Saturday and the place went ape s*** when Shane hit that grand slam, and I certainly can't complain about the first WS game. The second? Not so good, but since this team has not only won a division title that I have droned on and on upon, but they are AL Champions. There is no reason to complain about that. Still, wouldn't be a real hoot if we came back all the way this year and won it all?

[User Name]

The difference is that Nava is directly responsible for being good vs RHP. Gomes is not directly responsible for his team winning all those games.

 

Of course, we do need to consider Mike Carp as a viable third option here. He was very, very good against RHP himself and boasts more power.

 

We get it. Mike Carp is your new binky. (but it's a fair point)

[User Name]

Just got back from Boston mvp so I'm a little late getting in on this thread, but I would want Nava in the lineup tomorrow against the Cardinals. First of all with no DH we have one of our big run producers out of action. With Napoli on the pine we need some hitting in the lineup. If you looked at the two box scores from the first two games we got five and four hits.......and we really have to do better than that. We also need to get Drew out of that lineup. He is a total offensive black hole and now with the pitcher hitting (or flailing) we cannot afford to give away outs. Personally I would like to see Middlebrooks at third, Bogaerts at short and Nava in left. I know the chorus is coming....rookie this or rookie that. However, wasn't the Cardinal pitcher Wacha who beat us yesterday a rookie, and didn't John

Lackey a rookie when he pitched the seventh game of the 2002 World Series and won it for the Angels. I think talent can trump experience at times and I think this may be one of those times.

 

Saw our AL clincher last Saturday and the place went ape s*** when Shane hit that grand slam, and I certainly can't complain about the first WS game. The second? Not so good, but since this team has not only won a division title that I have droned on and on upon, but they are AL Champions. There is no reason to complain about that. Still, wouldn't be a real hoot if we came back all the way this year and won it all?

 

Xander has been spraying liners all over the place with poor results. He can't sit, since he's providing some of the best AB's on this team either way.

 

WMB would have no chance against Kelly, who throws a lot of breaking balls, he can sit. Keep Drew in the lineup today, start WMB against Lynn, who throws a lot more fastballs.

[Behindenemylines]

Nava had a couple of RBIs in game three and I would start him in left again. We also can't afford to keep Drew in the lineup, especially in NL park where the pitcher must hit. Drew has become a strikeout waiting to happen. Let the Bogaerts era at SS begin.

[jung]

Every defensive lapse this team has made has killed it. In fact every defensive lapse made has killed both teams. We can't afford to sit Drew. The Sox are going to have to play their best defenders in the key defensive positions. If that means that they have to depend on the guys that should hit for hitting, so be it. XB should stay in at 3rd. Drew should stay in at SS. Salty should be picking splinters out of his ass for the rest of the f***ing series. Ross has to play for the same reason Drew has to play. They have some flexibility in LF and maybe a little at 1st and that is about it.

[Palodios]

In games David Ross has started at catcher, the Red Sox are 3-0 this postseason.

 

He's also had a .308/.357/.462/.819 line this postseason.

[Dojji]

Since Salty's contract is up, we might be looking at full replacement at catcher -- or Lavarnway-Ross with Vazquez in the wings.

[mvp 78]

In games David Ross has started at catcher, the Red Sox are 3-0 this postseason.

 

He's also had a .308/.357/.462/.819 line this postseason.

 

Being Lester's personal caddie helps, but Salty has been brutal this postseason. I'm all for Ross playing as much as possible.

 

Also, why does Farrell keep playing Gomes?!?!?

[Bellhorn04]

Being Lester's personal caddie helps, but Salty has been brutal this postseason. I'm all for Ross playing as much as possible.

 

Also, why does Farrell keep playing Gomes?!?!?

 

On the night he only plays because Victorino can't go, he gets the biggest hit of his life. Gotta love this game.

[SoxSport]

The series is all about pitching and defense. It's usually that. The FO knows now how important defense is--hopefully. Especially up the middle. Starting at catcher.

[marklmw]

Being Lester's personal caddie helps, but Salty has been brutal this postseason. I'm all for Ross playing as much as possible.

 

Also, why does Farrell keep playing Gomes?!?!?

 

Farrell played Gomes because Victorino was injured. God works in mysterious ways. I told you Gomes would come through with a big hit.

[marklmw]

I have no problems seeing Salty go after this season and hopefully we can grab a top round draft pick off a QO. If Salty accepts the QO we can be buying an extra year of time for the youngsters on the farm to develop. I'm not a hater of Salty but I cannot see paying him on a longer term deal.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

End of story. Gomes has failed at the plate

 

I told you Gomes would come through with a big hit.

 

 

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a287/Rendragyn/lookaround1.gif

[User Name]

Y'know, i was going to do that but decided not to. Oh well.

[marklmw]

Y'know, i was going to do that but decided not to. Oh well.

 

It's called irony. You know the Sox won with Nava last night ... he was 0-4 at the plate but they won.

[marklmw]

Guys and Gals ... Yes it is true that I felt that Nava should get more AB's against right handed pitching. No one in this universe except maybe for Gomes himself was as happy as I was to see him launch that ball over the left field wall. I was never every being critical of Games himself as I suspect that all the players are giving their best effort.