Retire #34 when the Big Man moves on?

[Dojji]

The 2000 hit milestone got me thinking. David Ortiz is a man who won't be forgotten quickly when it's time for him to go. He was a huge part of our only 2 world series wins since 1917, he's compiling some impressive longevity stats, and he holds a few club records, including one of the biggies (single season HR, for his 2006 performance). He's probably going to finish his career with the team and pick up a few Hall of Fame votes, even if the NL chauvenists would balk at letting a DH in and that and the PED *rumors* probably close the door on Cooperstown.

 

I think you have to retire Ortiz's number when he retires. I think he's done enough right now, that if his career ended tomorrow for some non-scandalous reason (say a career ending injury) it's in the realm of thought for his number to be retired. If the team's rules don't allow Ortiz to be retired, that's a better reason to change those rules than it is not to honor the man. His statistical contributions are significant and his REAL contributions rise far above the numbers.

 

Just my $.02, I wonder what other people think. Not really expecting this to be a deep or major topic, it's just something I was thinking about due to the milestone.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Dojji

[mvp 78]

No, not a HOF. Great player, but I think some teams retire too many numbers (coughcough Celtics). Boggs' number isn't retired so Ortiz' shouldn't be either.

 

If they are going to retire more #'s it should be in the following order: 45, 21, 26, 24 (Evans), 34

[User Name]

2004,2007. Retire number plz.

[sk7326]

I think they can wait until he retires. And it's a no-brainer ... the hero of the team that broke the curse and a stalwart thereafter. He also doubles as maybe the greatest scrapheap pickup in baseball history.

 

Next Sox player to get his number retired is probably Pedro Martinez one'd imagine.

[mvp 78]

2004,2007. Retire number plz.

 

Schill, Tek and Wake too?

[User Name]

Schill, Tek and Wake too?

 

None of them retired with the numbers (or records) that Ortiz will have once he retires.

[mvp 78]

None of them retired with the numbers (or records) that Ortiz will have once he retires.

 

Manny had much better numbers and was part of both teams. What about him?

[User Name]

Manny had much better numbers and was part of both teams. What about him?

 

Manny burned that bridge when he forced his way out of Boston.

[mvp 78]

So then it's not about numbers or the WS titles then? Something else?

[sk7326]

Manny had much better numbers and was part of both teams. What about him?

 

The forcing his way out (minor factor) and the suspensions after (less minor factor) make that hard. The Sox have definitely used the HoF as a barometer for the guys they retire. Ortiz will by the end of his career at least be in a discussion (I'd say no, but I'd listen). Manny probably won't given the precedent - at least for a while.

[italstallianion]

On numbers alone I feel that Manny would deserve it as well, but his personality (classlessness) was a huge deterrent whereas Ortiz's is a huge benefactor. It's more than just the numbers imo. For the actual HOF I'd go on just numbers, but for the team HOF's I think what that players means (meant) to the club matters as well. And for each game Ortiz plays I think it becomes more and more of a certainty that his number is retired with him.

[mvp 78]

As an aside, the only # that is currently retired that shouldn't be is # 27

[Station 13]

Ortiz change this franchise. Yes his # should be retire after he is done.

[sk7326]

As an aside, the only # that is currently retired that shouldn't be is # 27

 

Definitely a little PR in there - although clearly a worthy HoF'er who spend half his career with Boston. At least as worthy a HoF'er as Rice.

[User Name]

So then it's not about numbers or the WS titles then? Something else?

 

Combination of numbers, contributions to WS titles with a little push from PR standing. That would make Ortiz and Pedro candidates to have their numbers retired, but not Manny.

[SCM33]

If they are going to retire more #'s it should be in the following order: 45, 21, 26, 24 (Evans), 34

 

I agree with everyone except Clemens.......strange though, why is his number off limits?

Nobody has worn 45 since Pedro.

Plenty have worn 26 since Boggs.

Plenty have worn 24 since Evans.

 

Why is Clemens number off limits?

[mvp 78]

If Ortiz has his number retired, so should Evans. Both are marginal HOF guys.

 

Since Boggs actively lobied to go to the HOF as a Devil Ray, I wouldn't be too upset if his number is never retired. Pedro and Clemens should be locks though.

[mvp 78]

I agree with everyone except Clemens.......strange though, why is his number off limits?

Nobody has worn 45 since Pedro.

Plenty have worn 26 since Boggs.

Plenty have worn 24 since Evans.

 

Why is Clemens number off limits?

 

Why retire Boggs but not Clemens?

[sk7326]

Why retire Boggs but not Clemens?

 

Well, not retiring Clemens until the Hall figures out what to do with him is a defensible stance - after all the Giants have not retired Barry's numbers despite essentially similar cases. (crazy amount of plausible evidence, but nothing that can stick like Manny's positive test did)

[Dojji]

None of them retired with the numbers (or records) that Ortiz will have once he retires.

 

You could make a definite argument for Varitek as a catcher. He holds a couple records for his position as I recall and he did play a sizeable role in the WS wins.

[Dojji]

If Ortiz has his number retired, so should Evans. Both are marginal HOF guys.

 

This is just me personally, but I'd have no problem retiring Evans. He's a hard luck loser in the Hall of Fame debate because his best offensive ability (OBP)he did best wasn't recognized much until long after he retired.

 

Before you counted walks or OPS as really important, Evans was... eh. Pretty consistent 20-30 Hr guy, great defender. Not bad surely, but the world has seen that before. Once you count walks and OPS, Evans is suddenly retroactively one of the best offensive players in his generation with several fantastic offensive seasons.

 

Since Boggs actively lobied to go to the HOF as a Devil Ray, I wouldn't be too upset if his number is never retired. Pedro and Clemens should be locks though.

 

I can think of a great many reasons not to retire Roger Clemens' number in Boston, so even if I don't necessarily agree with all ot those reasons myself, "lock" is an overstatement.

 

Agreed about Pedro though. The most dominant pitcher in baseball history needs to be on the wall of the team he played his best years for. The Red Sox organization need to be a little less sticks in the mud here and loosen up the retiring rules. Requiring HoF status to retire a number when there are whole categories of players the sportswriters WILL NOT VOTE into the Hall regardless of contribution, is wrong.

[mvp 78]

Why wouldn't you retire Clemens' number? Roids? Attitude? Left Sox on bad terms? They seemed to have welcomed him back.

 

He shouldn't have been let loose in the first place.

[rjortiz]

You could make a definite argument for Varitek as a catcher. He holds a couple records for his position as I recall and he did play a sizeable role in the WS wins.

 

I really don't have a strong opinion on this, but I don't think he has the quality of player that gets a number retired. He doesn't have that star appeal. I'm biased though, because of his awful play at the end of the career. Maybe they retire his number if he becomes another Johnny Pesky.

 

I'd say no to Boggs. I think there's a likability factor that comes into play here. A lot of people seem to hate him for some reason.

 

I'd also say no to Clemens. I think more people will remember the steroids, and that he was dragged before Congress. Didn't leave on the best terms, either.

[User Name]

You could make a definite argument for Varitek as a catcher. He holds a couple records for his position as I recall and he did play a sizeable role in the WS wins.

 

Sell me on this. I don't see it.

[Northern Star]

In a word:

 

No.

[Palodios]

You could make a definite argument for Varitek as a catcher. He holds a couple records for his position as I recall and he did play a sizeable role in the WS wins.

 

Most no-hitters caught.

 

Hmm, can't think of any others.

[Palodios]

As a Red Sox, Ortiz's slash line is .292/.390/.572/.962. 9 All-star games, 5 Silver Sluggers (not including his inevitable 2013 win), five top 5 MVP finishes, two World Series rings, and a member of the 50 home run club. He has been the face of the franchise, he's played 11 years here so far, won a Roberto Clemente award, and he ain't done yet.

 

Unless something happens to his reputation, he should be a lock.

[sk7326]

Overall, I think - the 1 9 8 4 are pretty solid locks. The standard still held for Fisk and Rice, but Rice is probably a step down in the timber of the numbers (Boggs for instance is a better player). The question is what standard do you want to hold for future Red Sox - if it's "better than Rice", Ortiz has a shot at that ... if it is "best of the best" or whatever, that might be a higher burden.

[Dojji]

Ortiz is one of the best players to play full time DH in MLB history. The only reason he doesn't make the hall is that sportswriters from National League towns will never vote for a DH. If we're going to hold that against Big Papi just because chauvenists in NL towns do, I consider that sad and pathetic.

[Dojji]

Why wouldn't you retire Clemens' number?

 

 

If the rivalry means anything you can't do it.

 

Not that he just left the team, but where he went after. Every time since 96 he had the opportunity to choose Boston or New York, or Boston or anywhere else, he chose anywhere else, and he especially chose New York. 07 was the clincher for me. He could have had a ring with us, last chance. You know he'd have been better than Wake. But nope, Yankee bound again.

 

Of course he'll cozy up now, there's money in it, and he belongs among the Red Sox great alumni if he genuinely wants to be there. But you can't put his number on that wall. You just can't. Every choice he made did since 96 and every time he could have come back and didn't when it might have made a difference tells you why. Even if he was snubbed initially in 96, he still made his choice every other time he could have come back and didn't.

 

He'll go to the Hall in a Yankees cap if he gets in at all, due to his performance in the Dynasty years. If by some miracle he actually chooses to get inducted as a Red Sox, then you look at it again. Since he was great for both teams, he may once again have a choice. But if he chooses wrong, you can't put Clemens on that wall. That's exactly what I honestly think will wind up happening. He'll choose NY one last time, and that's the end of it. Maybe he even goes up on THEIR wall. Maybe, but I doubt it.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Dojji