Rating Ben Cherington

[jung]

I hate to revisit the past. It is like an open sore that I would just as soon scab over. But I do agree that there was a certain amount of negativity following this team around like a black cloud. That Tito could no longer "reach them" in 2011 says more about them than it does about Tito, still considered by many one of the better managers in baseball.

 

I hate to use this other popular scapegoat but Beckett is/was truly a disaster after his second extension. I see tape of some of the things that rolled off his tongue through that period, said by Beckett with a completely straight face and just shake my head....WHAT WERE WE THINKING? Somebody needed to hit him upside the head with a 2x4. Imagine THAT walking around your clubhouse and missing starts and having off starts and on and on.

 

Notice if you will that the Dodgers suddenly became much more of a team...when....when....wait for it.... Beckett left the clubhouse this year. To be honest I think Beckett wants somebody to pay him to stay away and ya' know what...he has finally convinced me....I would pay him to stay away.

 

So you take that mess and then throw in V.....worst managerial decision in decades......anywhere.....by any organization based on what that team was and where it was headed. That was one time when it was clear I think that being able to step back and view a situation from 10,000 feet instead of 10 feet allowed many of us to see where that was going. Somehow the Sox managed to interview that nut and make a "logical" decision to hire him as their manager. Talks about being oblivious to what was going on in their own house. Not sure how you don't come out of an interview with V running not walking but running away as fast as your legs will carry you under any set of circumstances but given what was going on here.....Holy Cow!!!! Isn't it funny that whenever ownership insists on stepping all over the baseball organization....you end up with the worst possible decision.....Aroid's ridiculous contract in NY...The Sox getting V to manager in 2012......sort of a pattern there.

[sk7326]

Beckett, the ALCS MVP of our last title, that bastion of negativity. I'd like to think he is a guy who simply no longer can pitch - diminished fastball without the command to become something else. I always saw his answers as a guy who recognized the loss of stuff but wasn't going to cry because a bunch of reporters wanted him to. It showed in the results in any case. The Dodgers this season have been interesting - first half of the year something like 3rd in the NL in OBP and last in runs ... that imbalance was not going to last. I suspect the presence or absence of a #5 starter was not changing that much one way or the other.

[SoxSport]

Watching that play Iggy made at SS last night, you wonder if that trade is going to haunt the Red Sox. He showed some of the fastest hands in baseball on that play. I hear he's hitting about .280 in Detroit. That might make him a steal, if he can keep it up.

 

The Red Sox never gave him a fair shot at SS. First the terrible climate for any rookie last year. This year blocked at SS by Drew. Not to mention the cynical Boston media counting his IF hits.

[SoxSport]

Beckett, the ALCS MVP of our last title, that bastion of negativity. I'd like to think he is a guy who simply no longer can pitch - diminished fastball without the command to become something else. I always saw his answers as a guy who recognized the loss of stuff but wasn't going to cry because a bunch of reporters wanted him to. It showed in the results in any case. The Dodgers this season have been interesting - first half of the year something like 3rd in the NL in OBP and last in runs ... that imbalance was not going to last. I suspect the presence or absence of a #5 starter was not changing that much one way or the other.

 

Beckett is a symbol for what happened to the Red Sox after '07. Too much hubris and indifference. Sloppy fundamentals and conditioning. And no RHd power replacement for Manny after Bay left.

[jung]

Watching that play Iggy made at SS last night, you wonder if that trade is going to haunt the Red Sox. He showed some of the fastest hands in baseball on that play. I hear he's hitting about .280 in Detroit. That might make him a steal, if he can keep it up.

 

The Red Sox never gave him a fair shot at SS. First the terrible climate for any rookie last year. This year blocked at SS by Drew. Not to mention the cynical Boston media counting his IF hits.

 

This was only destiny taking its turn at the plate Soxsport. The Sox did not want Iggy...did not fit the mold of the prototype Red Sox SS. He was and is far too good a fielder for that. We crave no glove, all hit SS's here. If he can field a little we will tolerate him. But if he can't hit.....off with his head.

 

So the way I look at it, we filled a real need here this year. We helped our chances this year. That said there are some really good baseball teams out there. So I am not sure in the end it is going to make that much difference. But the FO had to bring in some help. There is no excuse for sitting on your hands when you have a shot and certainly no excuse when you in 1st place. Believe me, if it was not now it would have been some other time. The Sox would have gotten rid of Iggy somehow. At least you have to credit them for getting the most they could for him. But honestly, I am with you. I just know Iggy is going to stick a dagger right in my heart at some point.

 

Isn't it funny that the team with at the time, the most runs in baseball was still really uncomfortable with Iggy and the idea that his numbers would eventually slide. But he is a "perfect fit in Detroit". Here I am being harsh though because this is an offense by process, not but slugging superstar. Detroit has the horses on offense. That is why Ortiz must stay on his feet. Without him I think we are toast.

[Bellhorn04]

Isn't it funny that the team with at the time, the most runs in baseball was still really uncomfortable with Iggy and the idea that his numbers would eventually slide. But he is a "perfect fit in Detroit". Here I am being harsh though because this is an offense by process, not but slugging superstar. Detroit has the horses on offense. That is why Ortiz must stay on his feet. Without him I think we are toast.

 

Iggy was a 'perfect fit in Detroit', but only from the time they found out Peralta was going to be suspended.

[jung]

Iggy was a 'perfect fit in Detroit', but only from the time they found out Peralta was going to be suspended.

 

The comments that have been made around the league about Iggy being a fit in Detroit have nothing to do with Peralta though. It has to do with Iggy vying for the full time SS job after this year and Detroit really having a lineup that can afford an Iggy. That is why I said I was being too harsh on the Sox there. They do not have that kind of power lineup...not even close. They score runs but not that way and they tread a very fine line. If they do not work the process they have been working as team, it falls apart. The Sox are not going to just go out and batter an opponent's house down.

 

While the Sox don't have a big power line up, you can credit them for showing the kind of discipline we are used to seeing from the Rays. The Sox have stuck with it the whole season so far with few lapses as far as their approach at the plate goes. I would like to see them run a little less with their slower runners. Some of the Sox are just too slow and inept on the base paths to carry this relentless on the base paths idea forward. The Sox have done a lotta' damage with a lineup that is not really all that scary. Haven't really gotten great pitching of late either. So they have needed all the offense they can get.

[sk7326]

Beckett is a symbol for what happened to the Red Sox after '07. Too much hubris and indifference. Sloppy fundamentals and conditioning. And no RHd power replacement for Manny after Bay left.

 

Well, two playoff appearances and 179 wins in two playoff misses ... not flags, but 29/30 teams can say that. The Sox run was pretty good - not like Pedroia, Youk etc became bad people suddenly. But - in any case, this year has been a bit of a return to form. Not sure if a title will come from it - just from the perspective that no baseball favorite is ever any sort of iron lock - but has been a terrific season and an unruined summah.

[sk7326]

This was only destiny taking its turn at the plate Soxsport. The Sox did not want Iggy...did not fit the mold of the prototype Red Sox SS. He was and is far too good a fielder for that. We crave no glove, all hit SS's here. If he can field a little we will tolerate him. But if he can't hit.....off with his head.

 

So the way I look at it, we filled a real need here this year. We helped our chances this year. That said there are some really good baseball teams out there. So I am not sure in the end it is going to make that much difference. But the FO had to bring in some help. There is no excuse for sitting on your hands when you have a shot and certainly no excuse when you in 1st place. Believe me, if it was not now it would have been some other time. The Sox would have gotten rid of Iggy somehow. At least you have to credit them for getting the most they could for him. But honestly, I am with you. I just know Iggy is going to stick a dagger right in my heart at some point.

 

Isn't it funny that the team with at the time, the most runs in baseball was still really uncomfortable with Iggy and the idea that his numbers would eventually slide. But he is a "perfect fit in Detroit". Here I am being harsh though because this is an offense by process, not but slugging superstar. Detroit has the horses on offense. That is why Ortiz must stay on his feet. Without him I think we are toast.

 

Iggy's replacement is a pretty good defensive SS - a modest dropoff for an improved bat. Detroit needed a SS, and they got one who has an everyday starter sort of ceiling - although his hitting matters there too, his struggle is going to be producing enough to stay playable. This year his body of work has been a "yes" there. His July is not acceptable, his August to date is.

[RedSoxNC84]

Isn't it funny that the team with at the time, the most runs in baseball was still really uncomfortable with Iggy and the idea that his numbers would eventually slide. But he is a "perfect fit in Detroit". Here I am being harsh though because this is an offense by process, not but slugging superstar. Detroit has the horses on offense. That is why Ortiz must stay on his feet. Without him I think we are toast.

 

I am inclined to agree, yet the sox did win a lot of games early in the season before Ortiz was ready. Then again the team had Buch at that point too.

[BSN07]

I am inclined to agree, yet the sox did win a lot of games early in the season before Ortiz was ready. Then again the team had Buch at that point too.

 

That and Carp was hitting like a LH ginger Zeus.

[SoxSport]

SS is a defensive position. If you need a hitter at SS, it means you are lacking in hitting at the corner positions--which generally are hitters' positions. The priority for most teams at SS is defense. Hitting is gravy, and there aren't that many who can hit without sacrificing defense.

 

The Tigers have it right--hitters at the corners, defense up the middle.

[Bellhorn04]

SS is a defensive position. If you need a hitter at SS, it means you are lacking in hitting at the corner positions--which generally are hitters' positions. The priority for most teams at SS is defense. Hitting is gravy, and there aren't that many who can hit without sacrificing defense.

 

The Tigers have it right--hitters at the corners, defense up the middle.

 

Ah yes, that's why they had Peralta there until they had to trade for Iggy. Peralta was the best hitting shortstop in the league until he got suspended.

[jung]

While I am not really thrilled with it, in truth especially in the AL, they have moved more toward where the Sox have always been regarding the SS position. However now that pitching is beginning to once again exert its dominance more like it was in the 60's through 80's, we will very likely see more defensive minded SS's even in the AL. I don't expect that to change the Sox though. Their thinking in this regard spans decades, maybe even centuries. As long as Fenway stands, they will always prefer no glove, all hit SS's. Look at the current apple of their eye, XB for example.

 

They have probably buried the scout that brought Iggy into the organization somewhere behind the scoreboard sweeping up after the game is over.

[Bellhorn04]

While I am not really thrilled with it, in truth especially in the AL, they have moved more toward where the Sox have always been regarding the SS position. However now that pitching is beginning to once again exert its dominance more like it was in the 60's through 80's, we will very likely see more defensive minded SS's even in the AL. I don't expect that to change the Sox though. Their thinking in this regard spans decades, maybe even centuries. As long as Fenway stands, they will always prefer no glove, all hit SS's. Look at the current apple of their eye, XB for example.

 

They have probably buried the scout that brought Iggy into the organization somewhere behind the scoreboard sweeping up after the game is over.

 

jung, I agree with some of this, but you won't be shocked to hear that I disagree with some as well.

 

-One of the big reasons Epstein jettisoned Nomar and acquired Cabrera was because he recognized the team badly needed to improve its infield defence to have a chance at a title.

 

-A big reason Renteria was shipped out and replaced with Gonzalez was Renteria's shockingly bad defence (30 errors).

 

-I think they liked Stephen Drew because he had a decent bat but also because he was a relatively solid defender. And he has been solid most of the time.

 

My pet theory is that the Red Sox see Derek Jeter as the template for an AL shortstop - excellent hitter, makes the routine plays on D - lack of range yes, but so what.

[rjortiz]

I think the Red Sox will go with player that brings the most value to the table, regardless of how they do it.

[Bellhorn04]

A long way to go, and not all his moves have turned out well, but on balance Cherington has done an impressive job assembling the 2013 team.

[a700hitter]

Yes, let's rate the suits. What are the sabremetrics for the FO? They don't have baseball cards so let their corporate bosses rate them. The team is playing great so he gets credit as does the rest of the FO organization and coaches and trainers.

[Palodios]

Yes, let's rate the suits. What are the sabremetrics for the FO? They don't have baseball cards so let their corporate bosses rate them. The team is playing great so he gets credit as does the rest of the FO organization and coaches and trainers.

 

In all fairness, you've spent considerable amount of time rating the FO. Just admit it, the guy sure has some knockers.

[mvp 78]

After fixing Theo's mistakes last season, he was a solid C cup. Now he's more than a handful, maybe DD?

[a700hitter]

In all fairness, you've spent considerable amount of time rating the FO. Just admit it, the guy sure has some knockers.

In fairness, the best way to judge a FO is on the W-L record. I spend my time evaluating specific moves, but there is more that goes into the job than the moves that we see on the field. Based on the team's performance, he deserves a lot of credit. He turned around a team that had been spiraling down the drain since September 2011. He was successful in changing the course of the team, but we will not know if he has built something that will be consistently good and sustainable for a few years.

 

As for his predecessor, he had a knack for destroying things instead of building them. His record in Chicago in the W-L column has been horrendous. People are giving him high marks for rebuilding the organization, but if he is any good at all, he should be able to manage a .500 record in year 3. He should have traded the Shark. He could have gotten a big haul for him. Theo never could evaluate pitching.

Edited September 6, 2013 by a700hitter

[sk7326]

In fairness, the best way to judge a FO is on the W-L record. I spend my time evaluating specific moves, but there is more that goes intro the job than the moves that we see on the field. Based on the team's performance, he deserves a lot of credit. He turned around a team that had been spiraling down the drain since September 2011. HHe was a success in changing the course of the team, but we will not know if he has built something that will be consistently good and sustainable for a few years.

 

As for his predecessor, he had a knack for destroying things instead of building them. His record in Chicago in the W-L column has been horrendous. People are giving him high marks for rebuilding the organization, but if he is any good at all, he should be able to manage a .500 record in year 3. He should have traded the Shark. He could have gotten a big haul for him. Theo never could evaluate pitching.

 

This is true - although in a more long run sense. Rebuilding seasons are ok - as long as the plan is clear and the purpose is there. Theo in Chicago has had a couple of rough seasons - but the team was barren in the farm and bloated in the big league club. Moves so far have been turning Paul Maholm, Matt Garza, trading guys who were not going to be part of the next decent Cubs team - particularly good hauls for both. I severely doubt that the ND receiver gets much - still an average big league starter. Not like he is going to help a contender the way Garza projected to.

 

Running stuff in Boston is a tough gig. On some level, ownership sees the Red Sox as a TV channel and Tourist attraction that fields a baseball team. There are always those sorts of pressures from both the fans and the front office. A baseball operation sacrificing sexy moves for good baseball decisions is tougher here at times. Certainly in 2011-12 the team's management succumbed to those temptations - after the best decade in modern Red Sox history.

 

How would I rate the FO - can this team churn out 90 win seasons every year (assuming normal injury luck) ... can't really use "titles" as a criteria - since a FO can't control that? We are close to being there again. In some ways, the minors is like college basketball. You can have an amazing group of dudes, some of them graduate via trade or promotion - and then your system is bare except for guys in short season ball, if that. Cherington's team - and to be fair the final vestiges of Epstein drafts - have been able to restock the system with both guys who could help us, as well as help land veteran help. For Boston in particular, it is the ability to augment the financial advantages with the prospect inventory so that the Red Sox can fill virtually any hole on the big league roster. We are more or less there now. What I have seen good from Cherington so far is that he is not going to just sit on prospect depth - moving Iglesias for Peavy was a smart move which required some proactiveness. What I have seen bad is that he has done this to acquire "proven closers" - P U.

 

Next offseason will be fascinating - because the Sox will have the money and the prospect depth to makeover the team as radically (knock on Seattle and King Felix' door) or as conservatively as they want (give Nava some platoon help, add some bullpen help). They have more pieces than they have had in quite some time.

[Bellhorn04]

Theo Epstein certainly deserves his fair share of criticism, particularly, I guess, for the financial hole he dug the team into in 2011. I'll always give him big credit for helping assemble two title teams though. I said help, because it was clearly a group achievement.

 

People say he left the team in a big mess. That's only partially true IMO. It took one blockbuster trade to clean up the mess and reset things. A lot of the current team and top prospects come from the Epstein era.

[a700hitter]

Theo Epstein certainly deserves his fair share of criticism, particularly, I guess, for the financial hole he dug the team into in 2011. I'll always give him big credit for helping assemble two title teams though. I said help, because it was clearly a group achievement.

 

People say he left the team in a big mess. That's only partially true IMO. It took one blockbuster trade to clean up the mess and reset things. A lot of the current team and top prospects come from the Epstein era.

It took a monumental blockbuster of a trade to clean it up. The found the right trading partner that was desperate to add big priced assets and they took all of our big contracts. That happens once in a very long time. It was a huge mess that was cleaned up in that trade, but the mess should not be underestimated.

[a700hitter]

This is true - although in a more long run sense. Rebuilding seasons are ok - as long as the plan is clear and the purpose is there. Theo in Chicago has had a couple of rough seasons - but the team was barren in the farm and bloated in the big league club. Moves so far have been turning Paul Maholm, Matt Garza, trading guys who were not going to be part of the next decent Cubs team - particularly good hauls for both. I severely doubt that the ND receiver gets much - still an average big league starter. Not like he is going to help a contender the way Garza projected to.

 

Running stuff in Boston is a tough gig. On some level, ownership sees the Red Sox as a TV channel and Tourist attraction that fields a baseball team. There are always those sorts of pressures from both the fans and the front office. A baseball operation sacrificing sexy moves for good baseball decisions is tougher here at times. Certainly in 2011-12 the team's management succumbed to those temptations - after the best decade in modern Red Sox history.

 

How would I rate the FO - can this team churn out 90 win seasons every year (assuming normal injury luck) ... can't really use "titles" as a criteria - since a FO can't control that? We are close to being there again. In some ways, the minors is like college basketball. You can have an amazing group of dudes, some of them graduate via trade or promotion - and then your system is bare except for guys in short season ball, if that. Cherington's team - and to be fair the final vestiges of Epstein drafts - have been able to restock the system with both guys who could help us, as well as help land veteran help. For Boston in particular, it is the ability to augment the financial advantages with the prospect inventory so that the Red Sox can fill virtually any hole on the big league roster. We are more or less there now. What I have seen good from Cherington so far is that he is not going to just sit on prospect depth - moving Iglesias for Peavy was a smart move which required some proactiveness. What I have seen bad is that he has done this to acquire "proven closers" - P U.

 

Next offseason will be fascinating - because the Sox will have the money and the prospect depth to makeover the team as radically (knock on Seattle and King Felix' door) or as conservatively as they want (give Nava some platoon help, add some bullpen help). They have more pieces than they have had in quite some time.

Theo will have to prove himself in Chicago. He no longer has the "feeding the monster" excuse.

[Orange Juiced]

This organization is in EXCELLENT position not just for now, but for the forseeable future. Obviously a great team at present, no onerous contracts, a great mix of veterans and young guys, and a ton of prospects percolating on the farm. And, of course, tons of financial resources and a good amount of financial wiggle room to use it.

 

Yeah, 700, that trade last year was HUGE. Miraculous, really.

[a700hitter]

This organization is in EXCELLENT position not just for now, but for the forseeable future. Obviously a great team at present, no onerous contracts, a great mix of veterans and young guys, and a ton of prospects percolating on the farm. And, of course, tons of financial resources and a good amount of financial wiggle room to use it.

 

Yeah, 700, that trade last year was HUGE. Miraculous, really.

They certainly have a lot of flexibility. They just need to find the right building blocks.

[sk7326]

Theo Epstein certainly deserves his fair share of criticism, particularly, I guess, for the financial hole he dug the team into in 2011. I'll always give him big credit for helping assemble two title teams though. I said help, because it was clearly a group achievement.

 

People say he left the team in a big mess. That's only partially true IMO. It took one blockbuster trade to clean up the mess and reset things. A lot of the current team and top prospects come from the Epstein era.

 

He deserves some blame - although considering ownership concerns about NESN ratings and buzz ... one wonders how much of the "sign the top free agents of each class" strategy was driven by the baseball operation. Ownership basically decided to fix something that wasn't broken because the team was not sexy enough. Fortunately 2012 was enough of a disaster that they seem to be going back to the 2004-6 playbook, which clearly is an improvement. The trade helped organize their books - and certainly some wallets. And the guys who have been their stalwarts are back to being stalwarts - uninjured stalwarts.

[marklmw]

Ben Cherington has been with Boston since 1999. Obviously ownership would not have named him GM unless they thought highly of him. Cherington was involved with the two championships 2004 & 2007. Unloading the rich contracts of Crawford, Beckett with an under-performing AGON has put Boston in an enviable position freeing up lots of money to work with and blessed with a fairly good farm system. If he manages to sign Jose Daniel Abreu to a long term contract the Sox will be looking good for many years to come.

[Orange Juiced]

They certainly have a lot of flexibility. They just need to find the right building blocks.

 

They already have the right building blocks. Five good starting pitchers all under contract for next year. A stud reliever along with a couple of other guys (Taz, Breslow) that are very solid. Good position players all over the place. Tons of young kids ready to roll. Lots of money.

 

What I want is the Cuban 1b Abreu. And I want Dempster traded in the offseason for a prospect. Either sign McCann or re-sign Salty (either works for me). And then there's enough money to either do Ellsbury or get another big OF bat if you want.