David Ortiz in a Nutshell

[italstallianion]

When I look at the 2012 season, and why it was awful, my first thought isn't "Ben Cherington"

 

I'd blame Julio Lugo before Ben Cherington.

[a700hitter]

Happened in the first year of Ben's watch. A700, you ought to know just as well as I do that the current GM is only barely culpable for what happens in the first year when most of the roster are still guys the last guy picked. and that's when the entire ownership and upper management isn't looming over a rookie GM's shoulder second-guessing every move he makes.

 

I have no problem whatsoever writing Cherington a mulligan for 2012.

It happened on his watch whether he gets mulligans or not.

[BSN07]

Happened in the first year of Ben's watch. A700, you ought to know just as well as I do that the current GM is only barely culpable for what happens in the first year when most of the roster are still guys the last guy picked. and that's when the entire ownership and upper management isn't looming over a rookie GM's shoulder second-guessing every move he makes.

 

I have no problem whatsoever writing Cherington a mulligan for 2012.

 

Cherries doesn't even need a mulligan. Yes the on field product was bad for '12 but that was the sacrifice to blow it up and get things right for '13 and beyond. Which he has done. If the only thing anyone has to bitch about is Bard being mishandled then he's doing a good job.

[mvp 78]

AGon's s***** attitude

Beckett

CC injury

Buch and Lester vomiting all over themselves

Ells' injury

Youk's decline

 

Clearly these are all Ben's fault!

[a700hitter]

When I look at the 2012 season, and why it was awful, my first thought isn't "Ben Cherington"

 

I'd blame Julio Lugo before Ben Cherington.

I do like that Ben takes a lot more accountability for 2012 than people here want to give him. A lot of people want to make Epstein Ben's George Bush. Ben is getting his chance to prove his worth this season freed up from Epstein's fiscal strangulation of the team. Either way, someone messed up the team royally. If people don't want to hold Ben accountable, that is fine, but then it had to be Epstein's fault. Someone has to be accountable. Someone made the terrible decisions.

[BSN07]

It happened on his watch whether he gets mulligans or not.

 

This is classic. This coming from the guy that took part in some of the biggest Theo rants in talksox history with his whole argument being Duquette deserved more credit for the '04 championship then Theo

[a700hitter]

This is classic. This coming from the guy that took part in some of the biggest Theo rants in talksox history with his whole argument being Duquette deserved more credit for the '04 championship then Theo

Not quite sure what point you are trying to make.

[BSN07]

I do like that Ben takes a lot more accountability for 2012 than people here want to give him. A lot of people want to make Epstein Ben's George Bush. Ben is getting his chance to prove his worth this season freed up from Epstein's fiscal strangulation of the team. Either way, someone messed up the team royally. If people don't want to hold Ben accountable, that is fine, but then it had to be Epstein's fault. Someone has to be accountable. Someone made the terrible decisions.

 

Of course Theo and his company were to blame for most of the roster mess. He gets blame just like he gets some not all the credit for 2004(at least in my eyes, I've always split the credit between Duquette and Theo).

[a700hitter]

Of course Theo and his company were to blame for most of the roster mess. He gets blame just like he gets some not all the credit for 2004(at least in my eyes, I've always split the credit between Duquette and Theo).

Okay, so you hold Epstein responsible for the worst season in almost 50 years and last place in 2012? I'm okay with that. Somebody had to be responsible. It makes sense in light of the team's good start. Ben seemingly has righted the Red Sox ship to a big extent. They look to be going in the right direction, while Theo appears headed for last place and second 100+ loss season with the Cubbies.

[BSN07]

Not quite sure what point you are trying to make.

 

Because with your statement to dojji your implying that because the worst record in a million years for the Sox happened on Ben's watch he deserves some proportion of the blame. When in the same scenario in '04 you were quick to down play the contributions Theo made to that team and claim Duquette deserved most of the credit because the roster for the most part was set when Theo took over. I'm just wondering what's causing the flip flop act?

[BSN07]

Okay, so you hold Epstein responsible for the worst season in almost 50 years and last place in 2012? I'm okay with that. Somebody had to be responsible. It makes sense in light of the team's good start. Ben seemingly has righted the Red Sox ship to a big extent. They look to be going in the right direction, while Theo appears headed for last place and second 100+ loss season with the Cubbies.

 

Yes I put 2012 on Theo and Lucchino FO regime. If Cherries wasn't so handcuffed and made some actual significant moves and they still bombed he would receive a larger slice of the blame pie in my book. Ben's accountability started last August for me personally.

[a700hitter]

Because with your statement to dojji your implying that because the worst record in a million years for the Sox happened on Ben's watch he deserves some proportion of the blame. When in the same scenario in '04 you were quick to look down play the contributions Theo made to that team and claim Duquette deserved most of the credit because the roster for the most part was set when Theo took over. I'm just wondering what's causing the flip flop act?

It did happen on Ben's watch. It is interesting to see how people jump to his defense and hold him faultless while he mans up and takes responsibility without blaming his predecessor. If he is not at fault, I guess Theo takes the hit for 2012. Is that your opinion?

 

I have flip flopped on nothing.

[italstallianion]

Still though, Julio Lugo should be taken into a dark alley.

[a700hitter]

Yes I put 2012 on Theo and Lucchino FO regime. If Cherries wasn't so handcuffed and made some actual significant moves and they still bombed he would receive a larger slice of the blame pie in my book. Ben's accountability started last August for me personally.

So the success now is attributed to the Cherrington/Luchhino regime?

[a700hitter]

Still though, Julio Lugo should be taken into a dark alley.

He was very steady in the field for a good portion of 2007 and he had a good post season in my recollection. The rest was a train wreck.

[YAZMAN]

The old bastard is 14 for 27 with 2 bombs, 9RBI's and a 1.422OPS through 7 games this yr. Just to show how ridiculous his start is, he already has a 0.6WAR for a guy who plays no defense and WAR is based on an entire season. He is ridiculously on fire and I wonder if they gave him some supplements to get his heels and achilles back to normal. Re-signing him thus far has looked like a pretty smart move. For at least the first month, those who destroyed Cherington should be smoking his pole by now

 

A statement like this requires an adjustment to The Chart:

 

[table]Topic|Team|Content

Prospect|Yankees|The player in question is made of 150% pure awesomeness. Fear us.

Prospect|Sox|He could be good, but this is why he won't be.

Signing|Yankees|This is the missing piece. We'll win 160 games, and the umps will screw us out of 2.

Signing|Sox|Risky move, overpaid here, they'll regret this.

Injury|Yankees|They don't get hurt. Hypothetically, if they did, the recovery will be speedy with no impact to ability.

Injury|Sox|Everyone is a ticking time bomb. Once hurt, they'll never heal right. Any recovery will be due to illegal, performance enhancing drugs.

[/table]

[italstallianion]

Was it ORS that created the chart? The chart is the greatest post of all time on this site imo.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I do like that Ben takes a lot more accountability for 2012 than people here want to give him. A lot of people want to make Epstein Ben's George Bush. Ben is getting his chance to prove his worth this season freed up from Epstein's fiscal strangulation of the team. Either way, someone messed up the team royally. If people don't want to hold Ben accountable, that is fine, but then it had to be Epstein's fault. Someone has to be accountable. Someone made the terrible decisions.

 

I think 2012 was very clearly more on Epstein than on Cherrington, although one could very easily point to the fact that Cherrington was very influential in the decisions to trade for and sign Gonzalez, sign Crawford, and extend Beckett.

 

Then again, if we're going to put partial blame on Cherrington for those moves, we also have to place blame on Mike Hazen for any problems that you want to blame Cherrington for.

[a700hitter]

I think 2012 was very clearly more on Epstein than on Cherrington, although one could very easily point to the fact that Cherrington was very influential in the decisions to trade for and sign Gonzalez, sign Crawford, and extend Beckett.

 

Then again, if we're going to put partial blame on Cherrington for those moves, we also have to place blame on Mike Hazen for any problems that you want to blame Cherrington for.

I like that Ben stood up and took responsibility. How much he was to blame is debatable. Now, that he is in charge, he is making some savy decisions, but I think we both agree that the Daniel Bard experiment sits at his doorstep.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I like that Ben stood up and took responsibility. How much he was to blame is debatable. Now, that he is in charge, he is making some savy decisions, but I think we both agree that the Daniel Bard experiment sits at his doorstep.

 

I agree - Bard is on Cherrington and the FO. That was entirely on the new FO, decision had nothing to do with Theo.

 

On the other hand, I would do it all over again, mainly because the value of a young, cost controlled SP is so insanely high, and Bard had a very high ceiling. If it bombs out, you lose a stellar bullpen arm, but those are fairly easy & cheap to replace (see: Uehara, Tazawa, et all).

[iortiz]

I do like that Ben takes a lot more accountability for 2012 than people here want to give him. A lot of people want to make Epstein Ben's George Bush. Ben is getting his chance to prove his worth this season freed up from Epstein's fiscal strangulation of the team. Either way, someone messed up the team royally. If people don't want to hold Ben accountable, that is fine, but then it had to be Epstein's fault. Someone has to be accountable. Someone made the terrible decisions.

 

Theo is untouchable, remember?, it was Luchino's fault

[a700hitter]

Theo is untouchable, remember?, it was Luchino's fault

If any accountability is given to Theo it is as part of the Theo/Luchhino regime. I posted earlier that our current success had to be attributed to the Cherington/Luchinno regime. I am sure that made many posters gag.

[iortiz]

If any accountability is given to Theo it is as part of the Theo/Luchhino regime. I posted earlier that our current success had to be attributed to the Cherington/Luchinno regime. I am sure that made many posters gag.

 

As I said, Theo had a great time in Boston, but the last, say, 4 years of his tenure were horrible, reason why he is no longer here. He left the team in red numbers in the BL (considering only baseball operations) according to Forbes.

[mvp 78]

2008 was horrible?

[User Name]

2008 was horrible?

 

How does "red numbers in the bl" even mean anyway? They were making money hand over fist, and made the playoffs in 2009. Baseball o.erations doesn't account for tv revenues, and as SoxSport would say: "That's where the money's at".

 

Also, his "Theo is untouchable" comment borders on the ridiculous. Make sense please.

[seabeachfred]

Yes I put 2012 on Theo and Lucchino FO regime. If Cherries wasn't so handcuffed and made some actual significant moves and they still bombed he would receive a larger slice of the blame pie in my book. Ben's accountability started last August for me personally.

 

I think you might have hit on something BSN---the part of Ben's accountability starting last August. That was when we unloaded some big contracts and some miserable attitudes, not to mention some underachieving. The question some of us asked was whether Cherington engineered that trade or whether it was done without his imput. It is looking like he more to do with that than previously believed and we can take the off-season and what we've been seeing as proof. We have hardly heard a peep from Lucchino or Henry. Apparently Ben and John are running the show and they seem to have become a good team working together, not to mention the positive vibes emenating from the dugout

 

I'll tell you this. If this Red Sox comeback continues and the team becomes a power again in the American League, there is going to be a major revision of Ben as a GM. It will also mean that those of us who ripped Cherington will have to backtrack an issue a mea culpa.

[seabeachfred]

I agree - Bard is on Cherrington and the FO. That was entirely on the new FO, decision had nothing to do with Theo.

 

On the other hand, I would do it all over again, mainly because the value of a young, cost controlled SP is so insanely high, and Bard had a very high ceiling. If it bombs out, you lose a stellar bullpen arm, but those are fairly easy & cheap to replace (see: Uehara, Tazawa, et all).

 

You know SFF, the more I think about it the less than the full brunt of this failure I place on Cherington. Yes, the Bard fiasco may be on Cherington and the FO , the latter for not anteing up the money for pitching the 2011 off-season, and for Ben's decision to make Bard a starter as a result of the FO's intranigence on the matter of pitching help. However, Bard's collapse was so complete and so devistating that you have to wonder if Daniel had the guts and toughness to see that through and when put back in the pen at least resume a semblance of effectiveness. That he just completely bombed out tells me he should shoulder some of the blame for the ineptness that seems to have possibly destroyed his career. There now seems enough blame to go around.

[VA Sox Fan]

Just read this tidbit in the Globe. I had no idea:

 

David Ortiz, as an example, said Sunday that he is getting divorced and asked for privacy for his family. His personal business is just that -- his personal business -- and we should all respect that. The same is true for everybody, no matter what their personal business is.

[Palodios]

115 pound Tiffany Ortiz reportedly tired of all the Big Mommy jokes.

[VA Sox Fan]

115 pound Tiffany Ortiz reportedly tired of all the Big Mommy jokes.

Had you heard they were divorcing? Kinda surprised me but then again it didn't.