Red Sox and Pirates have discussed Hanrahan

[jung]

We already had Uehora and we still have a number of one inning wonders from last year. If there was a problem last year it was in deciding to start Bard, a job he wanted and that fit right in with the Sox one year austerity program and then deciding to sort of throw Aceves a bone by making him the closer. I can just imagine the pouty face Aceves must have been wearing when he did not get the job to start.

 

That whole cluster f*** had much more to do with an inept FO that did not have a clue particularly when it came to pitching and that apparently had a tendency not to deal with players directly. We all hoped for the best with Aceves as the closer and even attempted to support the move at least as much as we could. However, Aceves never ever made sense as the closer after Bailey went down. Didn't on day one and didn't on day 162.

[Dojji]

You're missing the point, especially if you think "we had Uehara" is a rebuttal for stockpiling high leverage relief.

 

Sure we had Uehara. Now we have Uehara and Hanrahan, which is objectively a better bullpen. And we gave up nothing we're likely to need later. Pretending you need exactly one guy to be "the closer" and exactly one (or even exactly two) to be "the setup man" is limited thinking. As many high leverage arms you can get, the better.

[jung]

Even your last post in a sense suggests that Bailey is now expendable and I actually think something is likely to happen there. Although it is often difficult for the Sox to admit their mistakes, Bailey was and is a pretty big one.

[dupree]

I agree that the trade that brought Bailey in was not good for us in no sense of the imagination. But i do think this years team can use Bailey altough i do think with Joel Hanrahan in the mix he very well could be expandable. But i wouldnt be so quick to move him unless he is traded for a front or middle of the rotation arm, id like a deal with the Tigers to send Bailey and get Rick Parcello back. The Tigers seem to want to move him and they need a closer so a trade between the two would make sense.

 

But i have to admit that im on a wait and see basis with Hanrahanas the appointed closer. Going from the NL Central to coming in to face loaded lineups in the AL East is gonna be a rude awaking for him. I have a funny feeling that maybe after April if Bailey is still around he moves to the 9th and Hanrahan moves to the 8th. Im just keeping my fingures crossed that Hanrahan is not our next Bobby Jenks.

 

Its a given that the 2013 Red Sox bullpen is gonna be a strength if not the best in the majors baring any injuries ofcourse which is gonna happen always has and always will but the the rotation can actually hold leads or keep the score close to a run or two then the bullpen has the potential to be locked down and hold leadss and allow a late inning ralley win for the offense to take ahold of. I think one more arm needs to be added to the rotation to ssay it is complete. I dont have alot of faith in Dempster Lackey

[Dojji]

Even your last post in a sense suggests that Bailey is now expendable.

 

If you think that, then you STILL don't get it.

 

He's not "expendable" just because he might not be the closer or primary setup guy. Again, you're making the assumption that a high leverage reliever can't be used in middle relief. Since they absolutely can, a healthy Bailey is better than most of the options that would replace him, so "expendable" is not the word I'd use.

 

Why would you trade Bailey? To guarantee Miller's job? because you're worried about Carpenter's chance to make the team? Because you're sorry for the rest of the AL East and want to make things easier for them? Ridiculous. Assemble the best 7 arms you can into the bullpen an let them sort the jobs out between them. That's what "closer by committee" was really supposed to be.

[jung]

If a deal could be put together that would bring us a SP that did not have a big ? stamped on his backside, and Bailey was needed to make that deal happen....in my world Bailey would be gone in a NY minute. Because in truth this discussion of this pen and the apparent high approval rating for its current makeup is the equivalent of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

We had great pens two years running. How did that result grab you.

 

We go into this season with not one single SP that does not have a big giant ? stamped to his rump and the chances of them all panning out are pretty slim. While having a rotation full of ? we go into this season with less likelihood of putting up the kind of offensive numbers we appeared capable of at the start of last season. So I guess we can exhaust in our impressive array of one inning wonders and one inning wonder depth....till hell freezes over cause when the rubber does hit the road....I doubt whether having Bailey and Hanrahan or Uehara and which one backs up which other one will matter very much.

[jung]

If a deal could be put together that would bring us a SP that did not have a big ? stamped on his backside, and Bailey was needed to make that deal happen....in my world Bailey would be gone in a NY minute. Because in truth this discussion of this pen and the apparent high approval rating for its current makeup is the equivalent of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

We had great pens two years running. How did that result grab you.

 

We go into this season with not one single SP that does not have a big giant ? stamped to his rump and the chances of them all panning out are pretty slim. While having a rotation full of ? we go into this season with less likelihood of putting up the kind of offensive numbers we appeared capable of at the start of last season. So I guess we can exhaust in our impressive array of one inning wonders and one inning wonder depth....till hell freezes over cause when the rubber does hit the road....I doubt whether having Bailey and Hanrahan or Uehara and which one backs up which other one will matter very much.

[User Name]

I don't get your argument at all jung. Because the rotation is full of question marks the need for a shutdown bullpen is magnified, not the other way around. The O's of last year proved how far mediocre starting pitching with a decent offense but a shutdown bullpen can take you.

 

Your argument is a house of cards. The fact that they need to address the SP is in no way, shape or form associated with the need to form and maintain a strong bullpen. They are separate parts of the same entity. Without a strong BP, strong SP loses a lot of its value.

 

The best way for the Sox to give themselves a fighting chance is to fortify the club as much as possible, and the only area where they can strengthen the ballclub is not SP.

 

I very much see Dojji's point of stockpiling high-leverage relievers, because one thing that gets overlooked is that even though the Red Sox had a decent BP last year, it was absolutely terrible in high-leverage situations. The Red Sox staff as a whole allowed an .814 OPS in high leverage situations. That is unreal.

[jung]

So you would not package up Bailey in a NY minute if he was needed for a trade package that would bring back a SP that did not have a big ? stamped on his behind? I would say stockpiling bullpen arms would make little sense if you were going to ignore such a trade possibility.

 

The O's had young arms in their rotation that really had much more upside than either Morales or Felix and by season end they were pitching like it. That is what pulled the O's up to the second WC great pen and all. In addition I really don't think the other rotation arms they had, mainly journeymen really distinguished themselves as much as they did not cave. They played out their steady eddy hand to the max. The guys we have in the rotation will all have to do better than steady eddy maybe with the exception of Dempster. We have fewer young arms with upside than they had and more veterans with big ? hung on their backsides.

 

If in fact the O's have any chance at all this year, it will be because Chen, Tillmen and Gonzalez build on their 2012. Hammel will likely be more of a contributor this year than last. I would trade our rotation for theirs straight up in a heartbeat.

 

All things being equal even with the second half contributions from the young guns in the O's rotation and a great pen where it not for Uncle Bud's cluster f*** of a new post season format, they are going home at the end of the 162. It is my personal hope that a 2nd WC team NEVER makes it to the WS show.....ever!

[User Name]

That's a pipe dream. Bailey doesn't have enough value to be packaged in a deal for a reliable starter. That argument's played out. He has more value to the Red Sox than he does to any other team.

 

Also, the "upside" of the O's arms do not erase their results: Their rotation was mediocre but their BP kept them in it. And "uncle Bud's" postseason format doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. They made the PO's in the current format, and that's indisputable.

 

My point is simple: By building a better bullpen, they're giving themselves a better chance to win ballgames. That's really not something you can argue against. And it's not like they can use BP depth to acquire a good starter, because that's a pipe dream. While they do need to address the rotation, addressing the 'pen and the offense were also important parts of the Red Sox as a whole.

[jung]

You also can not argue that the O's rotation is not a better rotation than the Sox rotation and the Sox pen is likely not as strong as what the O's had last year. What are we trying to do as a team.....that has been something of a discussion all off season so far. If their "goal" is a mighty shove to the middle of the pack.....well done Sox....you are well on the way.

 

Maybe a mighty shove to the middle is all that one could expect for 2013. However their hunt for rotation arms should be relentless and unending and if a package did arise that required Bailey he would and should be gone. What are you arguing....that there is no chance of Bailey being traded? How do you know who the Sox might trade or not trade? You don't and neither do I.

 

Are you arguing that what is represented by the O's 2012 suggests that the route to the promised land is through the bullpen? I would say that is wishful thinking. The same sort of wishful thinking that creates this "anything can happen" approach to trying to get to and more importantly through the post season. I noticed that the "anything can happen" bunch quickly went into hiding last year when the obvious rotation issues that were there from day 1 came home to roust or should I say roast.

 

It would be pretty difficult to make the case that you can ride a bullpen all the way to the promised land and if in fact the O's had made it to the promised land last year I would suggest it would have been because of their late surging rotation more than some bunch of pen guys coming into the 5th or 6th inning of every post season game resulting in the O's hoisting the trophy.

[Dojji]

Oy.

 

There is a chance of Bailey being traded.

 

There is no chance -- none -- that Bailey can be traded for anything that will make our starting rotation better.

 

Could you please go out, shell out some money, and buy a sense of perspective? Because you need one badly.

[jung]

Hey I am just letting my "anything can happen" freak flag fly. I had to live with that utter nonsense that the Sox might be going someplace last season. Heck I would tack him onto just about any deal I could find before he trips over a stray baseball bat in the dugout, breaks an ankle and is out for the season again.

[Lucienbel]

At this moment I also agree that Bailey's stock is down. While I'd like to see him go for Porcello the truth is that the Sox would probably have to give up a lot more than just Bailey to make that happen. The Tigers have a team that by all rights should be in the playoffs next year, unless something really weird happens. It makes sense that they wouldn't want a closer who has a history of injuries and didn't perform well last year...... They want a guy they know will be able to do it. I'd assume any other teams looking to move a starter would want similar.

 

As for the bullpen and starter argument, we need to be solid in both areas. Starters will have to be good enough to get us into the bullpen with a lead, and the bullpen will have to be good enough to hold onto that lead. The reality of it is, on some days the bullpen will be needed in the 5th/6th inning, and in others late in the game. Either way you bend it the offense also figures into this. I don't think the Orioles rotation or pen are the greatest example, as what they were able to do with both last year was an extreme.

 

Either way, the fact is that there's no way you'd be able to move a closer with a lot of questions about his health and ability for a starter without a lot of questions, unless that lack of question is the statement "he sucks". I agree that Bailey has a lot more value with us at the moment. Maybe if he pitches well he could be moved at the deadline if the bullpen plays itself out like that, but right now it seems you'd be under selling him.

[a700hitter]

So you would not package up Bailey in a NY minute if he was needed for a trade package that would bring back a SP that did not have a big ? stamped on his behind? I would say stockpiling bullpen arms would make little sense if you were going to ignore such a trade possibility.

 

The O's had young arms in their rotation that really had much more upside than either Morales or Felix and by season end they were pitching like it. That is what pulled the O's up to the second WC great pen and all. In addition I really don't think the other rotation arms they had, mainly journeymen really distinguished themselves as much as they did not cave. They played out their steady eddy hand to the max. The guys we have in the rotation will all have to do better than steady eddy maybe with the exception of Dempster. We have fewer young arms with upside than they had and more veterans with big ? hung on their backsides.

 

If in fact the O's have any chance at all this year, it will be because Chen, Tillmen and Gonzalez build on their 2012. Hammel will likely be more of a contributor this year than last. I would trade our rotation for theirs straight up in a heartbeat.

 

All things being equal even with the second half contributions from the young guns in the O's rotation and a great pen where it not for Uncle Bud's cluster f*** of a new post season format, they are going home at the end of the 162. It is my personal hope that a 2nd WC team NEVER makes it to the WS show.....ever!

No matter how good a bullpen is if your starters need the bullpen for 3 -4 innings 5-6 times a week, the pen will be in tatters by the middle of August. Our rotation just doesn't have inning eating starters.

[Dojji]

Not so sure about that. A healthy season from Lackey will give us 3 guys who tend to be over 180 innings in an average year. Dempster and Lester tend to be each good for over 200. The real weak point is Buchholz. He's never been Mr. Durable, and he's going to have to figure out how to get there from here. If he can't that puts too much pressure on an unfinished product like Doubront. If he can complete his second-ever 180+ inning season, the rotation ought to be fine from a durability standpoint.

 

have I mentioned recently that I really don't like Clay Buchholz that much?

[a700hitter]

Not so sure about that. A healthy season from Lackey will give us 3 guys who tend to be over 180 innings in an average year. Dempster and Lester tend to be each good for over 200. The real weak point is Buchholz. He's never been Mr. Durable, and he's going to have to figure out how to get there from here. If he can't that puts too much pressure on an unfinished product like Doubront. If he can complete his second-ever 180+ inning season, the rotation ought to be fine from a durability standpoint.

 

have I mentioned recently that I really don't like Clay Buchholz that much?

I agree that Dempster could eat innings if he can get people out in the AL. The same goes for Lackey if he doesn't hit any bumps in the road coming ack from TJS.

[Behindenemylines]

If the Sox get innings from their starters the bullpen could be good. If the bullpen is not over used early on it has a chance to be a strength for them. If the starters consistenly don't go deep into the game then the bullpen will be over used and it will explode like it did last year. Once again the 2013 season rest in the arms of the SPs. I like the potential of the pen.

[User Name]

Maybe a mighty shove to the middle is all that one could expect for 2013. However their hunt for rotation arms should be relentless and unending and if a package did arise that required Bailey he would and should be gone. What are you arguing....that there is no chance of Bailey being traded? How do you know who the Sox might trade or not trade?

 

You don't and neither do I. Are you arguing that what is represented by the O's 2012 suggests that the route to the promised land is through the bullpen? I would say that is wishful thinking. The same sort of wishful thinking that creates this "anything can happen" approach to trying to get to and more importantly through the post season. I noticed that the "anything can happen" bunch quickly went into hiding last year when the obvious rotation issues that were there from day 1 came home to roust or should I say roast.

 

It would be pretty difficult to make the case that you can ride a bullpen all the way to the promised land and if in fact the O's had made it to the promised land last year I would suggest it would have been because of their late surging rotation more than some bunch of pen guys coming into the 5th or 6th inning of every post season game resulting in the O's hoisting the trophy.

 

First off, i don't know how you infer from my post that i'm saying a good BP is the way to a WS. The example simply tried to illustrate that you can hide part of the weakness from a starting staff with a good bullpen. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, and neither should you.

 

As for the Bailey scenario, he holds very little value, and this is something we both know. Why would they trade a guy when his value is at its lowest and keeping him may prove more fruitful in the long run? For all your talk about the FO lacking common sense you're certainly not looking at this from a "common sense" perspective.

[beeee_c]

I like this trade, but if we really wanted to add a closer why not grab the one available via FA (Brian Wilson) and use this bunch of guys to acquire another piece that we can't get from the free agency pool?

 

 

No one responded to this... Wondering what you guys think.

[a700hitter]

No one responded to this... Wondering what you guys think.

 

I liked the idea of Brian Wilson. When healthy, he is better than Hanrahan.

[redsoxfan3]

No one responded to this... Wondering what you guys think.

 

Wilson is a question mark. If Hanrahan can fix his control problems, I think he is more reliable than Wilson. I think Wilson will bounce back and be a solid late inning reliever somewhere, but did not have to give up a whole lot to get Hanrahan. We gave up a ship wreck in Melancon, an unproven Sands, a prospect that has taken a step back n Pimentel, and a career AAAA utility guy in DeJesus. I think we were fortunate to get Hanrahan for that bunch. Those guys in a package deal could probably not be used to bring more return than Hanrahan. Who did you have in mind for us to go after with that package?

 

I think we still might not be out of the Brian Wilson sweepstakes. It is probably not likely that we sign him, but I would not completely count him out. I could see us signing him if we really want to trade Bailey. Our pen is pretty much set, but you never know for sure if an opportunity arises.

[User Name]

Wilson is post-op. I like him, but he's problematic.

[redsoxfan3]

I liked the idea of Brian Wilson. When healthy, he is better than Hanrahan.

 

I agree with that, but I think right now he is a question mark.

[a700hitter]

I agree with that, but I think right now he is a question mark.

 

Agreed.

[Palodios]

No one responded to this... Wondering what you guys think.

 

I really doubt Wilson will sign here. The best situation for him is a city with weak closer that he might be able to bypass if he is doing well. Even if Hanrahan falters, he'll still need to be Bailey, Uehara, Aceves and Bard -- maybe Tazawa all have closer potential. Unless the Red Sox trade one or two, I doubt Wilson signs here.

[mvp 78]

Aceves and Bard will never close a game for the Sox again. They should pick up Wilson and move Bailey for prospects if he starts to turn it around.

[Palodios]

Aceves and Bard will never close a game for the Sox again. They should pick up Wilson and move Bailey for prospects if he starts to turn it around.

 

A s***-ton of things have to go wrong for the Sox to need Wilson to close, so he's not going to want to come here.

[dupree]

If Wilson dont go back to the Giants which i still think he does, the dodgers would prolly be the most likely suitor for him. I like Wilson better than Hanrahan, i know he has injury problems but i think he has more upside than Hanrahan. I know im gonna get alot of people thinking im crazy in thinking that but i keep going back to seeing Hanrahan blowing a couple of saves early in the year and Bailey becoming the teams closer.

 

I know its a lil far fetched but i think it takes some seasoning in the hardcore AL lineups for a closer to go thru several times to become elite.

 

After Han signing i dont see the red sox adding another righty, they may add another lefty tho

[BSN07]

He's not due back until mid season, they could still sign him. But $ will be tight if the Napoli deal goes through.