Should the Sox trade some Bullpen arms?

[iortiz]

Saves are not his only consistent number. Plus, he got 38 save for an 81-81 third place team from a terrible division in 2012.

 

Another primitive stat that I like about him is IPs... that rudimentary stat shows his durability and consistency through years.

[a700hitter]

He's stud. Ask Philly. Obviously you have Boston FO's vision which is fail in that regard.

 

And I disagree about SVs. They are paid for that stat. Closers are paid to have high %SV. They are paid to shutdown games. SV is precisely the stat that show you that ability.

Good relievers can get plenty of saves on lousy teams. Look at the number of saves accumulated by Joakim Soria for lousy Royal teams.

 

Edit: I don't see the correlation to being on a winning team.

[iortiz]

Good relievers can get plenty of saves on lousy teams. Look at the number of saves accumulated by Joakim Soria for lousy Royal teams.

 

The pressure is always there in a SV situation regardless you are in a L or W team.

[iortiz]

Indeed. For this reason if no other, Papelbon should have been kept.

 

I strongly suspect that we lost Pap so we'd have the payroll flexibility to choke down Crawford and Gonzalez. Which is inexcusable. Literally. I'll carry water for the adminstration as much as anyone, and defend them if they're worth defending, but there's no excuse for that kind of judgment call.

 

I wonder how much is asking Soriano... he is a FA, isn't he?

[SoxFanForsyth]

I wonder how much is asking Soriano... he is a FA, isn't he?

 

3/45 is my guess.

 

And that may be worth it to have that shut down guy. But I'd be more willing to give Brian Wilson less money and take a shot on him though.

[iortiz]

3/45 is my guess.

 

And that may be worth it to have that shut down guy. But I'd be more willing to give Brian Wilson less money and take a shot on him though.

 

Soriano or Wilson would be a nice addition.

 

You would have

 

Soriano/Wilson

Bailey

Morales

Aceves

Tazawa

Hill

 

 

Considering the lack/?s in our rotation (at this point) a solid BP could help us to eat innings.

[Lord Snow]

I can't believe Scott Atchison is getting non-tendered. He was such a good pitcher for the Red Sox last season.

 

Those who are saying Papelbon isn't different from other relievers clearly don't know a thing about baseball.

 

How many active relief pitchers, lets not even talk about closers here, have that kind of consistency for 7 straight years?

 

I would love the Papelbon naysayers to answer that question for me. I'll bet there are no more than 4-5 them, if even that many.

[jung]

I honestly don't know how to think about Paps struggles in situations when the Sox forced him to pitch 1 inning plus. He clearly did not do well in that situation. He could do it once but even twice in close proximity was a struggle for him and three times...forget it...you could tell he was out there tryin' but really started struggling pretty quickly. I don't know if you should expect a closer to get it done in that situation if you keep rollin' him out there like that though.

 

I definitely think that Paps struggles in that situation were as much about pitching...sitting and then pitching again than to the total pitch count. Sure he would end up at the upper end of what he could appear to take in total pitches but pitching and then sitting only to come out to pitch again with the effort he was putting into each pitch seemed to contribute as much to his issues. At the end of some of those stints, the ball was just flat with no movement at the plate and he really started to get tagged.

[mvp 78]

No, which players were overpaid busts that people coddled?

 

Still can't answer this, iortiz?

[iortiz]

Still can't answer this, iortiz?

 

Answered, go through threads and you'll figure it out.

[mvp 78]

He's stud. Ask Philly. Obviously you have Boston FO's vision which is fail in that regard.

 

And I disagree about SVs. They are paid for that stat. Closers are paid to have high %SV. They are paid to shutdown games. SV is precisely the stat that show you that ability.

 

Jose Valverde 2011 says hello.

 

Saves are useless. Being up by three and getting three outs with no inherited runners isn't all that amazing.

[mvp 78]

Answered, go through threads and you'll figure it out.

 

No, you didn't.

[iortiz]

Jose Valverde 2011 says hello.

 

Saves are useless. Being up by three and getting three outs with no inherited runners isn't all that amazing.

 

Nope.. You have to look at the whole picture... SV + Consistency + Durability + Reliability. That is JP.

[iortiz]

No, you didn't.

 

Yes I did.

[mvp 78]

Like who? plenty of people here and outside this board. Go through threads and you will realize who.

 

This response didn't answer my question. If you're unable to answer my question because it's more involved than just agreeing with A700, I understand.

[a700hitter]

This response didn't answer my question. If you're unable to answer my question because it's more involved than just agreeing with A700, I understand.

Seriously, are you trying to prove that Papelbon is not good because he has consistently high save totals?:dunno: I am not getting the point of your argument. Saves may not be determinative of whether a closer is a good pitcher, but a consistently high save total for 7 straight years doesn't prove that he is not a good pitcher. If anything, the fact of the consistency of his results would lead a reasonable person to think it is an indicator (among others) that he is pretty good and not just lucky for 7 straight years.

 

As for agreeing with me, if you were a little smarter, you would agree with me more often. Check that, if you were a lot smarter...

[Emmz]

He hasn't gotten to Mo money yet.

 

Mo money than you, pal.

[iortiz]

Seriously, are you trying to prove that Papelbon is not good because he has consistently high save totals?:dunno: I am not getting the point of your argument. Saves may not be determinative of whether a closer is a good pitcher, but a consistently high save total for 7 straight years doesn't prove that he is not a good pitcher. If anything, the fact of the consistency of his results would lead a reasonable person to think it is an indicator (among others) that he is pretty good and not just lucky for 7 straight years.

 

As for agreeing with me, if you were a little smarter, you would agree with me more often. Check that, if you were a lot smarter...

 

I'm not sure what is he trying to attempt. The truth is that Pap got a very nice contract since he was the best closer at the time and the numbers through 6 years support him. Philly didn't hesitate. Once 2011 season finished they signed him and didn't give room another team make an offer. They knew what they got in him. Results speak for themselves.

[mvp 78]

No, which players were overpaid busts that people coddled?

 

This was the question I wanted answered. If you can't or would just rather continue your circle jerk, it's fine by me. :dunno:

[Lord Snow]

The Red Sox don't need to add another relief pitcher. They just non-tendered Scott Atchison. Probably because they don't have a role for a pitcher who is coming off a sub-2 ERA season with a sub-1 WHIP in 50 innings pitched.

 

The bullpen, at least on paper, is looking solid for 2013 assuming most of the talent is capable of putting up similar numbers in 2013 and Daniel Bard, Alfredo Aceves, and Andrew Bailey bounce back.

[jung]

The problem for the pen two years running now has not been the pen in and of itself. It has been that no pen can really survive the pressure that the Sox rotation puts upon it. It is just ridiculous how much they are asked to pitch...the situations they are asked to pitch in and the number of consecutive nights they have been asked to get up and for the most part come in. That is not the manager either. We have had two different managers with for the most part two different approaches to bullpen use crush pretty good bullpens in consecutive years.

[Bellhorn04]

The Red Sox don't need to add another relief pitcher. They just non-tendered Scott Atchison. Probably because they don't have a role for a pitcher who is coming off a sub-2 ERA season with a sub-1 WHIP in 50 innings pitched.

 

The bullpen, at least on paper, is looking solid for 2013 assuming most of the talent is capable of putting up similar numbers in 2013 and Daniel Bard, Alfredo Aceves, and Andrew Bailey bounce back.

 

Those are some pretty big assumptions. Maybe 2013 will be dubbed by the Sox front office as the 'year of the bounceback'.

[User Name]

This was the question I wanted answered. If you can't or would just rather continue your circle jerk, it's fine by me. :dunno:

 

Pretty much.

[jung]

Could be the year of the bounce-back of the year of the tire treads on back.

[kapsis21]

no matter how you put it the FO screwed up when they let go of a guy who knows how to close in Boston.

look at the stats for the amount of games we lost due the bullpen woes of Aceves/Bailey/Padilla last season

 

we had a lockdown for 8th and 9th inning guys. add Tazawa for the 7th inning that would have been freaking amazing bullpen

 

i know the money he was asking was little more but he could have easily gotten 4years/11 million by Boston and could have kept him with Boston due to the years he spent with us..

[a700hitter]

This was the question I wanted answered. If you can't or would just rather continue your circle jerk, it's fine by me. :dunno:

And this will prove that Papelbon is not a good closer? Again, what argument are you trying to make. You are insisting to an answer to a question that you posed on an essentially irrelevant point. What would an answer to this question prove about Papelbon in any way? I think that you have been jerking yourself around.

[a700hitter]

Mo money than you, pal.

You got that right. They should redistribute some of his money to us. They should probably redistribute some of his meaningless saves. It's not fair that he has so many.

[a700hitter]

Those are some pretty big assumptions. Maybe 2013 will be dubbed by the Sox front office as the 'year of the bounceback'.

Let's hope that it is not a dead cat bounce.

[jung]

While I have been critical of the Sox for ending up leaving us to sing the praises of our bullpen...mainly cause there was not much of anything else to sing the praises of, they have really left it all out on the field the last couple of years. Yea we have had some guys walkin' on the wild side or I guess on the wilder side since relief pitchers always seem a little baked anyway. But without that pen I don't even want to think about how hideous these last two years would have been.

[Bellhorn04]

It is just a tad ironic that we had one of the worst pitching staffs in team history last year and we're going to non-tender Atchison and his 1.58 ERA.