Josh Johnson and Mark Buerhle dealt to Jays

[italstallianion]

It was a salary dump.

 

I understand that was the case for Miami.

 

My point was how f***ed Toronto was in the deal because of how poorly their return on investment was to this point. Not to mention for the amount of salary they acquired AND the quality of prospects they gave up.

[a700hitter]

The Blue Jays/Mets trade was:

 

RA Dickey (2-4 4.50)

Josh Thole (career .261/.331/.333/.664)

Mike Nickeas (career .180/.241/.238/.479)

 

for

 

John Buck (.264/.296/.593/.889)

Noah Syndergaard RHP BlueJays 38th overall pick in 2010 draft. Prior to last season he was ranked by MLB.com as the 95th best prospect in baseball.

Travis d'Arnaud (on 1/29/2013 list, #6 on MLB's top 100 prospect list) He was also in the Roy Halladay deal.

Wuilmer Becerra was ranked 30th in Blue Jays system prior to trade.

d'Arnaud was the prize catch of that group and he was stuck behind Arrencebia with nowhere to go.

[VA Sox Fan]

I'm not going to try to rationalize my anger earlier.

 

I was wrong. Plain and simple, I was wrong. The Jays suck. Their pitching is terrible.

 

:thumbsup: A true man's answer! :thumbsup:

[Bellhorn04]

Something that gets forgotten about is that Napoli was Blue Jays property, briefly, before the 2011 season. They got him from the Angels in the Vernon Wells dump. But then they flipped to him to Texas for the immortal Frank Francisco. I thought it was strange that they let him go so easily. I think he would do OK playing half his games in Rogers Centre...

[italstallianion]

d'Arnaud was the prize catch of that group and he was stuck behind Arrencebia with nowhere to go.

 

 

Perhaps, but the 2 players Toronto picked up (besides Dickey) are both catchers.

[a700hitter]

Perhaps, but the 2 players Toronto picked up (besides Dickey) are both catchers.

Minor league roster fillers. Neither of them is good at all.

[italstallianion]

Eh I'm mixed on Thole, he's always had a good OBP for a catcher because he can really draw walks. I don't know how any of their defenses are though. It just doesn't make much sense in a trade imo. Then again there's plenty I do not know about being a GM.

[BSN07]

Eh I'm mixed on Thole, he's always had a good OBP for a catcher because he can really draw walks. I don't know how any of their defenses are though. It just doesn't make much sense in a trade imo. Then again there's plenty I do not know about being a GM.

 

Thole had experience catching Dickey.

[a700hitter]

Eh I'm mixed on Thole, he's always had a good OBP for a catcher because he can really draw walks. I don't know how any of their defenses are though. It just doesn't make much sense in a trade imo. Then again there's plenty I do not know about being a GM.

He was supposed to be a good offensive player, but he never really developed. His catching skill was nothing special.

[italstallianion]

Thole had experience catching Dickey.

 

Has Thole caught any of Dickey's starts? Or perhaps he shared his knowledge of catching Dickey with Arencibia and other Toronto catchers. Hmmm good point.

[a700hitter]

Has Thole caught any of Dickey's starts? Or perhaps he shared his knowledge of catching Dickey with Arencibia and other Toronto catchers. Hmmm good point.

He is buried in AAA.

[italstallianion]

I know, I just meant to mention that if he was brought over for having caught Dickey before, but he didn't actually catch Dickey now. The only thing I could imagine explaining both factors is that Thole was of use to share his experiences catching Dickey to the Toronto catchers.

[a700hitter]

I know, I just meant to mention that if he was brought over for having caught Dickey before, but he didn't actually catch Dickey now. The only thing I could imagine explaining both factors is that Thole was of use to share his experiences catching Dickey to the Toronto catchers.

That's as good an explanation as any I have heard.

[BSN07]

I remember it being reported that was the reason for Thole being part of the deal. Now him being in AAA makes it seem odd.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Ben... Wake up!

Yeah Ben, wake up!

[Dojji]

No backpedaling here. The Red Sox needed pitching.

 

This statement is incorrect. We acquired one starter and the rest of our pitching has been more than adequate, and had the talent to be more than adequate from the outset. Our depth is also pretty decent, especially if we get Morales back. The overreaction to the underperformance of our pitching staff last year during the offseason reached the point of comedy several times.

 

 

The Jays got a pile of it for very little.

 

They got a pile of something. I wouldn't have been the one who wanted to pay Mark Buejrle to pitch in the AL East at 34, and I wouldn't have been the one who had to try to hitch my season to Josh Johnson. While it's true they didn't give up a ton, they got some question marks back, no doubt about it.

 

The Red Sox have been extremely lucky with their starting pitching so far,

 

Nnnnnot really. We've had above average luck, which contrasts starkly with our horrific luck last year and maybe that makes it seem like a bigger contrast, but so far what I see is a pretty danged talented rotation starting to play up to their ability.

 

I mean, which of Buchholz, Lester, Dempster, Doubront and Lackey -- a rotation that includes 3 former Cy Young nominees and one more talented prospect just starting to come into his own, were bad bets to pitch to an ERA of under 4 this year?

 

We love to hate Lackey because of his injury-filled last few years, but he was reported healthy and the reports turn out to be well founded. Only Dempster was a good bet assuming normal health, and he's certainly pitched well in his career.

 

Unless you called out Buchholz and Lester returning to elite form 100% of the time (which no one did) you can't justify an "I-told-you-so" here.

 

No one needed to call it 100% o the time. All they had to do is point out, accurately, that it was hardly unreasonable to expect it of either pitcher. Buchholz has been a revelation this year, granted. He's the only one that's even really exceeding reasonable expectations.

[Palodios]

Nnnnnot really. We've had above average luck, which contrasts starkly with our horrific luck last year and maybe that makes it seem like a bigger contrast, but so far what I see is a pretty danged talented rotation starting to play up to their ability.

 

Among the five of them, the best ERA in the AL was 4.56-- and that just happens to be a guy who is severely injury prone. Many many things needed to go right for this rotation to succeed, and fortunately that's what happened.

[Dojji]

Among the five of them, the best ERA in the AL was 4.56-- and that just happens to be a guy who is severely injury prone. Many many things needed to go right for this rotation to succeed, and fortunately that's what happened.

"Many things have to not continue to go particularly wrong" is not the same thing as "many things have to go particularly right."

[a700hitter]

The Jays have run off 8 wins in a row.

[iortiz]

... And the last I heard was that Reyes is almost ready.

[a700hitter]

... And the last I heard was that Reyes is almost ready.

Predictions of their demise may have been premature.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

... And the last I heard was that Reyes is almost ready.

 

Still in last place. The Jays are not the team to be worried about in the AL East. 8 game win streak, still in last place. Bad luck Jays.

[Bellhorn04]

[quote name='a700hitter']Predictions of their demise may have been premature.[/QUOTE] I agree.

[User Name]

Doubtful. It's going to be really hard for them to climb into the playoff race with the way the Red Sox, Orioles are playing, with Texas/Oakland out West.

[a700hitter]

Toronto has a lot of talent. They have a very powerful lineup and that will improve when Reyes returns. Adam Lind who looked ready for the scrap heap in recent years is doing a good job for the and they have couple of big boppers. They have talent in the starting rotation. Josh Johnson pitched really well in his last start. When healthy, he is a very good pitcher. Dickey and Buehrle look to be coming out of their funks and they are giving their team a chance to win on their turns. If they have a deficit of talent, it is in the bullpen. I don't know if they can play consistent enough to make a playoff run, but I don"t think they will be doormats either.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The Blue Jays weren't 8 games better than the Red Sox over the course of the full season. They're certainly not 8 games better than the Red Sox over 93 games.

[mvp 78]

Reyes: part of epic Mets collapses, part of a preseason WS team in Florida that sucked, part of a preseason Toronto team that is in last damn place in June. Are the Jays sure they want him in the lineup?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Reyes: part of epic Mets collapses, part of a preseason WS team in Florida that sucked, part of a preseason Toronto team that is in last damn place in June. Are the Jays sure they want him in the lineup?

 

Jose Reyes = Adrian Gonzalez

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not freaking about the Jays, they're just one more team we have to contend with and we have to look after our own business and all that. But the fact is they're now back in the picture and they do have guys pitching well and guys hitting well all of a sudden. It's just the way baseball is.

[mvp 78]

Jose Reyes = Adrian Gonzalez

 

If Agon was on and off the DL for his whole career.