Rotation

[jung]

Just for clarity....191 over 31 starts is a shade over 6 (as in 6 and a tenth) innings per start. If you 1 is only going 6 per start, your bullpen is sunk. Seem to remember that by the end of 2011, that is exactly where the Sox pen was.....sunk and that was with Aceves pitching a ridiculous number of innings and with Paps stepping in at the end...eventually that is what killed Paps at the end.

[SoxSport]

Just for clarity....191 over 31 starts is a shade over 6 (as in 6 and a tenth) innings per start. If you 1 is only going 6 per start, your bullpen is sunk. Seem to remember that by the end of 2011, that is exactly where the Sox pen was.....sunk and that was with Aceves pitching a ridiculous number of innings and with Paps stepping in at the end...eventually that is what killed Paps at the end.

 

Their bullpen is always sunk. That's because they rarely leave a starter in beyond 6 innings--win or lose, sharp or struggling. One of these days they'll realize that.

[jung]

No question Tito had a tendency to pull guys early. I cannot tell you anything about V's tendencies...lie a lot I think is about it. But you cannot rely on guys like 4 and 5 in the rotation to go past 6...can't depend on them to get outta' the 5th. So if you are pullin' 1 and 2 at 6 innings....#3 in the rotation is not likely doing much better. There is not a bullpen goin' set up to deal with that many innings.

 

In Tito's case it seemed to me he would allow a starter to have a bad inning but as soon as he saw any trouble in a subsequent inning, the starter was comin' out. So, had a bad inning and two innings later started with a BB. As the starter you had the time it took for Tito to get somebody ready and you were....comin' out.

[Bellhorn04]

This is funny because one of the knocks on Tito I've heard the most is that he would leave starters in too long until games were out of hand.

[Behindenemylines]

I do think that we have to get more innings from the starters because it is a drain on the bullpen to pitch as much as they do. We also need to have the key arms in the pen pitch up to their abilities. The arms are there in the pen if not over used to have some success. The starting rotation still has holes in it and needs to be strengthened. What was Farrell track record in using the pen in Toronro?

[jung]

Jays pitching went through so much upheaval I am not sure you could really discern anything from it. Looks like Farrell didn't do much better but he wasn't working with much either.

[Behindenemylines]

Jays pitching went through so much upheaval I am not sure you could really discern anything from it. Looks like Farrell didn't do much better but he wasn't working with much either.

 

I know the Jays had a ton of injuries with their starters last year and it maybe hard to gage Farrell's use of the pen. You would think as a former pitcher this would be something he has more success with.

[Station 13]

This is funny because one of the knocks on Tito I've heard the most is that he would leave starters in too long until games were out of hand.

 

Those are early losses that the starters need to eat innings. We're talking about starters from 1-5 that made the bullpen toss the 2nd highest amount of innings in the AL. They have plenty of trouble making it out of the 6 inning in winnable games.

 

Buchholz is a culprit of this team pitching problem. He missed too many starts. This challenged the little depth the system has. Guys like Cook, Stewart, etc get to make those starts in his place and they lose games in the 1st or 2nd inning.

 

This team need a real horse in the rotation (like Halladay).

[Behindenemylines]

Those are early losses that the starters need to eat innings. We're talking about starters from 1-5 that made the bullpen toss the 2nd highest amount of innings in the AL. They have plenty of trouble making it out of the 6 inning in winnable games.

 

Buchholz is a culprit of this team pitching problem. He missed too many starts. This challenged the little depth the system has. Guys like Cook, Stewart, etc get to make those starts in his place and they lose games in the 1st or 2nd inning.

 

This team need a real horse in the rotation (like Halladay).

 

I agree that the Sox need an ace that will pitch 200+ innings and will consistenly pitch late into games. We don't currently have one and its why the current staff as is probably the weakest in the AL East.

[Elktonnick]

I agree that this has been a 2 year decline. People don't remember that after 2011, Lester and others were talking about him having a bounce back season in 2012. He was not pleased with his 2011. This is why 2012's debacle is so concerning. This is two years in a row where we are talking about a Lester bounce back. 2011's numbers look fine without context and we would kill for him to get back to that level, but it doesn't change the fact that his stuff and game has been slipping for 2 seasons. Last year was more than a slip. It was a cliff.

 

I respect Dan Duqutte's acumen when it comes to handling pitchers more than anything that I've seen from the Red Sox since his departure. I find it significant that Duquette is so down on the cutter that he has banned it being taught in the Orioles organization. Palmer has alos criticized Lester for over using the cutter in his analysis of Red Sox games.

 

Lester has gone from being a power pitcher to a slightly above average lefty with a rare instances of his former self. Maybe Farrell can return him to form. If so then he will have earned his salary. How much of Lester's issues are temperment and attitude are the major question marks. If the Sox don't shore up the rotation then it is obvious that the FO is betting that it is temperment which will largely be put to rest by Farrell's re apearance. That is a heck of a a gamble and puts added pressure on Farrell.

[SoxSport]

This is funny because one of the knocks on Tito I've heard the most is that he would leave starters in too long until games were out of hand.

 

True--and true. Tito did as the FO told him to do. And the FO goes strictly by pitch counts.

He left a guy in there to a certain pitch count, no matter how many innings he pitched, or how many runs he had given up, or how well he was pitching. It's a crazy philosophy, in that the overriding concern is pitch counts. They are obsessive about this, which may be why their pitching sucks.

[jung]

Except for Baltimore's Chen (at an average of 6 innings per start) and the injury riddled Jays rotation, every other 1 and 2 rotation pitchers in the AL East averaged either just over or just under 7 innings per start. The Sox top two averaged 6 innings per start. Over a full season, that adds up to 50-60 extra innings that the Sox bull pen has to pitch just contributed from 1 and 2 in the Sox rotation.

[a700hitter]

This is funny because one of the knocks on Tito I've heard the most is that he would leave starters in too long until games were out of hand.

Tito always took out the starter at around 100 pitches regardless of whether he gave up 0 runs or 6 runs or whether he got to 100 pitches in 4 innings or 7 innings.

[BSN07]

Anibal Sanchez's demands for a six-year, $90MM contract are "crazy, and he's probably going to get it," an executive tells Passan.

 

Pass

[Behindenemylines]

I agree that this has been a 2 year decline. People don't remember that after 2011, Lester and others were talking about him having a bounce back season in 2012. He was not pleased with his 2011. This is why 2012's debacle is so concerning. This is two years in a row where we are talking about a Lester bounce back. 2011's numbers look fine without context and we would kill for him to get back to that level, but it doesn't change the fact that his stuff and game has been slipping for 2 seasons. Last year was more than a slip. It was a cliff.

 

The Sox have no starters right now that don't have questions about how they will produce in 2013. Both Lester and Buchholtz are not consistent, Doubront is young and his innings have to be watched, and who knows about Lackey. That is why SP scares the crap out of me. We don't know what we are going to get.

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox have no starters right now that don't have questions about how they will produce in 2013. Both Lester and Buchholtz are not consistent, Doubront is young and his innings have to be watched, and who knows about Lackey. That is why SP scares the crap out of me. We don't know what we are going to get.

 

Absolutely true. The more I think about it, they should sign Sanchez if it's not a totally outrageous deal. He should add some stability. The performance of the other four could go either way. I think we have to live with that prospect to start off 2013.

[redsoxfan3]

Absolutely true. The more I think about it, they should sign Sanchez if it's not a totally outrageous deal. He should add some stability. The performance of the other four could go either way. I think we have to live with that prospect to start off 2013.

 

He is demanding 6/90.

[jacksonianmarch]

Absolutely true. The more I think about it, they should sign Sanchez if it's not a totally outrageous deal. He should add some stability. The performance of the other four could go either way. I think we have to live with that prospect to start off 2013.

 

The sox dont need to overpay for a guy with okay stats and a significant arm injury history. They have already gone that route. They need an anchor to their staff. The only guy on the market who fits that bill has psychiatric issues.

[example1]

I hate the idea of giving Sanchez that much money. How much should they be willing to pay for 195 IP of 4 era? He's been mid-to-high 3s in the NL East, but is asking for more AAV than what Gio Gonzalez will get at the end of his current deal. No thanks. 4 years, 40m would be my opening offer.

 

Think of it this way: if Sanchez were still a Red Sox and had never been traded originally, they would be releasing him into FA right now. With his performance until now they wouldn't be thinking 15m per. Hopefully they can avoid grass is greener syndrome.

[Bellhorn04]

The sox dont need to overpay for a guy with okay stats and a significant arm injury history. They have already gone that route. They need an anchor to their staff. The only guy on the market who fits that bill has psychiatric issues.

 

Well, exactly.

 

Sanchez has had 3 straight years of 195 innings so he seems totally healthy.

 

I keep coming back to this but the Red Sox have about 70 million to spend this year without reaching the tax cap. They should be spending a pretty good chunk of that. And there aren't any bargain prices or sure things out there. No matter who they sign there will be question marks.

[Station 13]

Edwin Jackson might be a good pick up if he goes for less than 50M.

[Bellhorn04]

After Greinke the list of free agent starters just isn't that great. If we pass on all the ones who will be overpriced or have question marks, we pass on all of them. And a big chunk of money goes into our owners' pockets, where it will stay. Because they're not going to exceed the cap in 2014, that's for sure.

[jung]

And if we pass on all of them it simply does not matter whether Napoli plays 1st or Mickey Mouse plays 1st.

[Palodios]

My former targets were Guthrie and Marcum, but now that Guthrie is off the market, I think the Red Sox's best bet is going to be grabbing two of the high upside injury risk players. Not one, but two. They will be a fraction of the price of Greinke/Sanchez/Lohse.

 

I'm looking at Mccarthy, Haren, Marcum. Maybe Garza. I'm less optimistic about Dempster.

[Bellhorn04]

Edwin Jackson might be a good pick up if he goes for less than 50M.

 

Sure. But he's also a good example of what I'm talking about. It'll probably cost at least $40 million to sign him. And you could make a good case that's he's a perfectly mediocre pitcher. A career ERA+ of 98, a WHIP of 1.44, an OPS against of .766. Postseason? ERA of 5.46, WHIP of 1.61.

[Station 13]

Sure. But he's also a good example of what I'm talking about. It'll probably cost at least $40 million to sign him. And you could make a good case that's he's a perfectly mediocre pitcher. A career ERA+ of 98, a WHIP of 1.44, an OPS against of .766. Postseason? ERA of 5.46, WHIP of 1.61.

 

You might want to check what Jackson done the last 3 year. He's been around 105-110ERA+ and 200 innings average.

[example1]

Well, exactly.

 

Sanchez has had 3 straight years of 195 innings so he seems totally healthy.

 

I keep coming back to this but the Red Sox have about 70 million to spend this year without reaching the tax cap. They should be spending a pretty good chuunk of that. And there aren't any bargain prices or sure things out there. No matter who they sign there will be question marks.

 

The IP and health seem to be there, the results are only so-so. He's worth mid rotation money, not top tier money. His asking price of 15m is what Kuroda got, even though HK is clearly a better and more reliable asset.

[User Name]

You might want to check what Jackson done the last 3 year. He's been around 105-110ERA+ and 200 innings average.

 

He's been close, but no he hasn't: 100 ERA+ (the definition of average) and 199 IP/year. What's really scary about him is his always-high WHIP but only decent K rate: 1.35 and 7.5

[a700hitter]

The Sox have no starters right now that don't have questions about how they will produce in 2013. Both Lester and Buchholtz are not consistent, Doubront is young and his innings have to be watched, and who knows about Lackey. That is why SP scares the crap out of me. We don't know what we are going to get.

^ 100%.

[a700hitter]

I hate the idea of giving Sanchez that much money. How much should they be willing to pay for 195 IP of 4 era? He's been mid-to-high 3s in the NL East, but is asking for more AAV than what Gio Gonzalez will get at the end of his current deal. No thanks. 4 years, 40m would be my opening offer.

 

Think of it this way: if Sanchez were still a Red Sox and had never been traded originally, they would be releasing him into FA right now. With his performance until now they wouldn't be thinking 15m per. Hopefully they can avoid grass is greener syndrome.

I hate finishing last. I am not expecting a championship caliber team in 2013, but a couple of starters would make this a competitive respectable team. $60 million for Sanchez is a much better value than $82 million for a pig like Lackey. Sanchez will not break our bank. The payroll is very low right now, and so far no one has given him the 4/$60. If that is the top, it's not horrible and the length is not that bad, and maybe it will be lower.