Aceves, Bailey, or Melancon?

[Dojji]

Not to mention Breslow, Atchison, Hill (if he can stay healthy,) Tazawa

 

Those other guys are solid MR's don't get me wrong, but Miller has the kind of stuff that puts him in the conversation for the late innings. His stuff is easily better than Melancon's and Aceves, and I don't say the same about Bailey mostly because I really don't have a point of reference for Bailey.

[RedSoxNC84]

Those other guys are solid MR's don't get me wrong, but Miller has the kind of stuff that puts him in the conversation for the late innings. His stuff is easily better than Melancon's and Aceves, and I don't say the same about Bailey mostly because I really don't have a point of reference for Bailey.

 

I wasn't trying to say otherwise. I'm just saying that the guys you listed, and the guys I listed would make a pretty solid bullpen.

 

 

I really do like the strides Miller has made, and I think it's a good thing the Sox had patience with him. I knew the guy could do it.

 

 

 

 

Now, do you think Miller would be the future setup man? It doesn't look much like Bard is ever going to make it back to where he was before.

[iortiz]

As I said and I'll keep saying, Aceves is a very good mid/eating-reliever. They made him closer. We all know the results.

 

All these horrible moves take us to the point where I do not see Aceves in Boston uniform next year. All these experiments sucked to the point we lost key pieces in already proved roles. (Bard as setup guy, Aceves as Mid-reliever, etc.).

 

Magnificent Cherington, Magnificent!

[a700hitter]

As I said and I'll keep saying, Aceves is a very good mid/eating-reliever. They made him closer. We all know the results.

 

All these horrible moves take us to the point where I do not see Aceves in Boston uniform next year. All these experiments sucked to the point we lost key pieces in already proved roles. (Bard as setup guy, Aceves as Mid-reliever, etc.).

 

Magnificent Cherington, Magnificent!

And there is no going back. Bard is a shot pitcher and he will never again be a late inning shut down type pitcher. Aceves will resent going back to being a middle inning relief guy. Trade them both, because they will never again be of any use to the Sox.

[youmetaxidermy]

I can't find the fault in that logic.

[TutGadol]

This seems like a thread made for the purpose of creating a thread.

I'll rather sign Moyer as the closer then giving it to Melancon.

[Bellhorn04]

ERA comparison

 

Aceves 5.31

Bailey 6.23

Melancon 6.64

 

Papelbon 2.33

 

All those who said it was a big mistake letting Papelbon go were dead right.

[a700hitter]

ERA comparison

 

Aceves 5.31

Bailey 6.23

Melancon 6.64

 

Papelbon 2.33

 

All those who said it was a big mistake letting Papelbon go were dead right.

Whether he is overpaid or not, they will have a very difficult time replacing his consistently excellent performance in that role. They spent money foolishly for years. There are lots of examples of this. When it came time for Papelbon, they decided that a closer wasn't worth the investment. They will be looking for his replacement for years and the end of games will be nightmares for several seasons. Right decision or wrong decision? $107 million on Dice K was clearly a bad decision. Lackey's contract was clearly a bad decision. We'll have to see how Papelbon finishes with the Phillies. He's off to a good start doing what he always did for us.

 

As to the current state of affairs in our pen, people are making a terrible mistake if they think we have the arms inhouse to have a good pen next season. They need to add quality arms for the pen. i'd rather add one quality arm that might cost a few bucks rather than seeking value in lower cost options. Our FO has been a terrible at evaluating pitching talent.

[jung]

In my view the question was never whether Paps was a good if not excellent closer. The question was whether they had enough team to make paying a guy $44/4 to pitch 40-60 critical late innings pay off. Lets get realistic about that as well. Paps has already proved unreliable if you hand him the ball to many times expecting him to get you through both the 8th and 9th innings. So we are talking about the 9th inning exclusively if you want to really get full value out of Paps.

 

Based on the actual results, did we have enough team to make paying a guy $44/4 for that role pay off???? Not by a long shot. They have many many holes to fill before they get to the point where they have to worry about the 9th inning. This team can't get to the 9th and really has not been able to for two years at least. Stop the madness for God's sakes.

 

Try to build a team that has a chance of handing the ball to somebody in the 9th enough times to make it matter and then you can talk about whether the guy you are handing the ball to can get the job done. By the time the FO had to decide whether or not to compete for Paps they had already f***ed themselves right in the ass as they had already built this team of losers and had spent all the money in the process. So lets stop trying to rewrite history when we actually already know the history. It was and is a team of losers and was a team of losers by the time they had to decide on Paps. Had they known that the Dodgers would bail them out of many of the worst mistakes here in 2012, then you can maybe....MAYBE make the case that they should have competed for Paps.

 

Heck in reality, by the time the Red Sox are truly ready to compete in the beefed up AL, Paps might well be available again if they want to take that shot. While the Sox do not have a reliable closer at present, they have much to fix in order to get to enough 9th innings that will matter.

[a700hitter]

...

Based on the actual results, did we have enough team to make paying a guy $44/4 for that role pay off???? Not by a long shot. They have many many holes to fill before they get to the point where they have to worry about the 9th inning. This team can't get to the 9th and really has not been able to for two years at least. Stop the madness for God's sakes.

 

Try to build a team that has a chance of handing the ball to somebody in the 9th enough times to make it matter and then you can talk about whether the guy you are handing the ball to can get the job done. By the time the FO had to decide whether or not to compete for Paps they had already f***ed themselves right in the ass as they had already built this team of losers and had spent all the money in the process. So lets stop trying to rewrite history when we actually already know the history. It was and is a team of losers and was a team of losers by the time they had to decide on Paps. Had they known that the Dodgers would bail them out of many of the worst mistakes here in 2012, then you can maybe....MAYBE make the case that they should have competed for Paps.

I agree. I think Papelbon could have kept this ship of fools afloat only for a short period of time. However, in fixing the pitching they need to be fixing the rotation at the same time they are fixing the pen. I don't think they should fix the rotation with a wait and see attitude about the pen. Why bring in quality starters if you are not going to give them support at the end of games?

[jung]

Surely, they need to fix the pitching first. Who knows if this bunch of knuckleheads even has a viable plan to fix it. I would agree that you have to fix the pen hard on having fixed the rotation but realistically, fixing the rotation will be difficult and time consuming while being more critical. Having both fixed is likely a two year project anyway.

 

We might well have to be satisfied with seeing them fix the pen hard on having fixed the rotation. I am skeptical about their ability to fix both at the same time. To be honest I am skeptical about their ability to fix either. Lets not look at "the trade" as evidence of some new found competence. The FO guys that have to perform in this period of rebuilding were nothing more than glorified pencil pushers as it relates to the meaningful decisions and discussions made to pull off the trade.

[a700hitter]

Lets not look at "the trade" as evidence of some new found competence. The FO guys that have to perform in this period of rebuilding were nothing more than glorified pencil pushers as it relates to the meaningful decisions and discussions made to pull off the trade.

I completely agree with this. Selling off parts is not an indication of competence in evaluating talent or building a team. Thus far, Cherington has demonstrated very little aptitude in evaluating talent.

[mvp 78]

Cher-Bear builds a solid bullpen (would have been great if Bailey was healthy), has Doubront start, signs Ross, signs Shoppach (who was their best catcher this year), has WMB start at 3b, signs Pods (who revives career), but he apparently can't judge talent.

 

Of the two major mistakes this year (BV and Bard starting), he's only at fault for one of them.

[Bellhorn04]

Cher-Bear builds a solid bullpen (would have been great if Bailey was healthy), has Doubront start, signs Ross, signs Shoppach (who was their best catcher this year), has WMB start at 3b, signs Pods (who revives career), but he apparently can't judge talent.

 

Of the two major mistakes this year (BV and Bard starting), he's only at fault for one of them.

 

It's very debatable that the bullpen would have been great with Bailey. The ERA's of Bailey, Melancon and Aceves are what they are. Bailey is a small sample but I wouldn't bet the house on this guy.

 

In short the back end of the bullpen has been poor. The middle relief numbers have been very good.

[a700hitter]

Cher-Bear builds a solid bullpen (would have been great if Bailey was healthy), has Doubront start, signs Ross, signs Shoppach (who was their best catcher this year), has WMB start at 3b, signs Pods (who revives career), but he apparently can't judge talent.

 

Of the two major mistakes this year (BV and Bard starting), he's only at fault for one of them.

11th in the league in starter's ERA, 11th in Reliever's ERA and the worst Late and Close bullpen --yeah great job. A healthy Bailey would have made all the difference in the world. He should get some votes for executive of the year.

[a700hitter]

Cher-Bear builds a solid bullpen (would have been great if Bailey was healthy)

Seriously, 11th in Reliever ERA and last in Late and Close situations is not solid at all.

[jung]

In short the back end of the bullpen has been poor. The middle relief numbers have been very good.

 

And that is my point. Frankly, it is about the same story across the entire team. The Sox have a bunch of middle relief guys that are OK in that role but to be honest that is a big who cares. Middle relievers that can start fresh innings but really can't put out fires are a dime a dozen. Looks impressive to us because our starting pitching is such a disaster but on a relative basis is nothing to write home about.

 

Platoon and backup outfielders are also a dime a dozen as are backup and utility infielders, another bunch of Sox "assets".

 

I have maintained for over a year now that the Sox "organization" allows so many influences to pull and tug at Baseball Operations that I am not comfortable labeling the GM one way or the other at this point. However the moves made since Theo's departure if you want to look at that as a line in the sand amount to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. The Ross signing stands out I guess as he is a guy I would try to keep even flawed as he is. He is very well suited to Fenway's left field both in the field and at the plate. They may just have to deal with his inability to hit RH pitchers and at least in LF his fielding problems are less visible than in Fenway's tough RF. They have many more serious issues than Ross although I would not want to see him the everyday RFer. They may be stuck with Kalish there and hope he comes around sometime during the 2013 season.

 

I suspect they do need to replace Theo positionally in the organization and if that guy comes in and likes BC in the GM role so be it. However they should hire such a guy and then let that guy decide if he wants BC in his current role. Whatever or whoever is in the FO, they need to deal with starting pitching and relief pitching as pitching generally is a giant hole on this team.

 

They will need a new manager, new coaches.....again I think any suggestion that a few tweaks here and there will bring this team back to competitiveness in the AL as currently constructed amount to whistling past the graveyard.

[a700hitter]

If the strength of your team is your middle relief, your team sucks. This is a truism of baseball IMO.

[Bellhorn04]

If the strength of your team is your middle relief, your team sucks. This is a truism of baseball IMO.

 

Agreed.

[vjcsmoke]

The answer is Papelbon... oops we let him walk. Not a bunch of great options there. Just throw stuff against the wall and see who sticks.

 

Seriously though, I used to think Bard was well on his way to being our closer but he fell apart when we tried to 'stretch' him into a starter. Does he just not have the mental makeup to be a closer? I still remember the fireballer who used to rear back and throw it 98-100 mph and nobody could touch his stuff. Is that pitcher still there?

[a700hitter]

The answer is Papelbon... oops we let him walk. Not a bunch of great options there. Just throw stuff against the wall and see who sticks.

 

Seriously though, I used to think Bard was well on his way to being our closer but he fell apart when we tried to 'stretch' him into a starter. Does he just not have the mental makeup to be a closer? I still remember the fireballer who used to rear back and throw it 98-100 mph and nobody could touch his stuff. Is that pitcher still there?

I think he's shot. He doesn't have upper 90's stuff anymore, and he has no clue where he is throwing the ball.

[SoxSport]

Melancon should be gone. The others should stay. Melancon will be hard to get rid of, since it might bruise Cherington's ego.

[SoxSport]

Their pitching basically sucks, and I've been told they are looking into why--beyond just the personnel. Why they have a lot of underperformers with weak arms.

 

The other night, they threw 4 pitchers out there for 4 innings-one per inning. I'm told they don't like to pitch guys more than one inning. Maybe that's why they frequently run out of pitchers. Plus all those bullpen heatups take their toll over a season. It takes a guy awhile to get ready in the bullpen. Throwing 10-12 pitches in an inning is not enough--especially when a guy is sharp. Taking your starters out after 90-100 pitches also takes it toll on the bullpen, and may actually be counterproductive to a pitcher's durability. A lot of these practices have no real foundation--it's a black art.

[Behindenemylines]

Bailey is probably the only one who comes back. Aceves and his attitude have warn out their welcome in Boston. He has been terrible since he sat those few games. He is pitching like sh__ the last few weeks. An Melancon has proven to me that he can not pitch under the pressure of Boston.

[Station 13]

The best reliever on this team is Tazawa. He should be in consideration for closer.

[jopete19]

Why was Melancon on this list?? haha!

[jacksonianmarch]

Lucchino already is greasing the wheels for Aceves to go as he insinuated in a recent interview that Aceves' return is certainly not a guarantee. I think Melancon has to be kept in the organization lest Cherington lose all his face for that deal. He's still optionable, I believe, so if he sucks in ST, he stays in AAA for one more season before being released into obscurity. The funny thing is, I bet he ends up in KC or Pittsburgh and works his way into a setup role. His stuff is still good, he just shrinks on the bigger stage. And one thing that really left his repertoire from his dominance in the Yankee system and his solid effort in Houston is his 2 seamer. He was a groundball and K machine in the minors and since coming to Boston, he has gotten rid of one of his best pitches. Now, you lay off the curve and whack the 4 seamer.

 

Bailey still has great stuff and I assume he will still be a solid closer next yr. He won't be dominant to the level Pap was since this is Boston, a different park, different foes and different atmosphere. But I do think he ends up being a top 10-12 closer in the bigs in 2013.