Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[Palodios]

It's an open question, not directed at any one person in particular. What should the Red Sox have done to improve the starting pitching in the future that wouldn't harm them in the future by trading a top 5 prospect or signing a fringe #1 pitcher to a 5-6 year deal? What options would have been better than what they did? I can see why you might not want to answer that, it's not an easy one.

 

The number of options have been very slim this offseason. The deals that I bet Ben missed out on are:

 

1) Trade with Angels for Haren, and then pickup his option. The Angels lost money in the buyout, so I seriously believe that he could have been had for next-to-nothing.

 

2) Shin-Soo Choo for Trevor Bauer? I bet Ellsbury could have replaced Choo in that deal, given that Choo has a similar injury history, a fast-approaching free agency, and significantly lower ceiling.

 

3) Shaun Marcum/Guthrie have AL East experience, and both could probably be had cheaper than Dempster.

 

Johnson would have been nice, but the Jays paid a ridiculous amount to get him. Mccarthy is a big question mark. Scott Baker however, might have been worth a solid one year deal. Sanchez/Greinke/Jackson/Lohse all have pretty hilarious price tags, and I bet were worth avoiding.

[a700hitter]

Sanchez is a mediocre pitcher with less upside then Lester or Buchholz. They wouldnt wise not to invest Pedro Martinez money over 5 years. I'm sorry I think the best option for 2013 is to hope they hit that upside. It's not unreasonable o think that they will. I just feel like there was no real number 1 starter out there that would have fulfilled your desires.

I never said that I was looking for a real number 1 this off season. My proposal was to improve the bottom 3. Dempster was their attempt, but he would not have been my choice. I would have tried to add 2 guys to solidify the rotation, neither of which would have been #1's. There were plenty out there that moved this off season. Our starters have been stinking up the mound since September 1, 2011. Since then, we have traded Beckett away and brought in Dempster. I do think it is folly to expect a big improvement with essentially the same crew. Your opinion is different. I have said it over and over that the one hope that I hold out for a marked improvement from this group is a trade of Salty. If they keep him and he catches the majority of games for essentially the same pitchers since 2011, the starting staff will perform poorly.

[seabeachfred]

So the fact I'm unwilling to not buy or sell the trade after 1 season, I'm a FO ballwasher? Brilliant.. Couldn't be I just have a different way of evaluating talent/moves then someone.

 

I understood the move. Doesn't mean I liked it. For what it's worth this move may very well been one of the last straws so to speak to finally get them to re-evaluate how they were going to shape the roster short and long term.

 

My opinion is the Sox FO/fanbase/media have all been in too much of "win now mode" the last few seasons. Actually to me the Lackey signing was the first sign of it. A lot of us forgot what wins Championships(build talent/core from within and add $ for the last piece that puts you over the top). Instead we wanted sure things so we all "knew" the Sox would be in the playoffs and didn't care what was spent or who they traded to have this "security". Ownership got used to the attention and all the $ it brought in and forgot throwing $ around doesn't typically win. What makes it worse is we watched first hand the Yankees do the same exact thing. Win championships with their own talent, then went bat s*** crazy gathering all the names to feed the fan base and media monster it had created and watched the team fail year after year after year. For the most part it looks like the Sox have shifted course from this to some extent this off season.

 

a700 is probably going to call this absurd and poppycock or something. But the proof is in all the reactions to the Sox off season. The win now fans and media are baffled at what the team is doing while the fans that look more at the development approach generally like how the team is approaching next season and the future.

 

BSN, let's get one thing straight. If I think you are a ballwasher I will tell your straight off. I know no other way. I do think you may be an apologist. This stuff, I understood the move but didn't mean I liked it, is pure fluff. If you didn't like the move you should have said so and not try and throw the front office a parachute. Under normal circumstances I could have lived with the trade but with Kalish hurt and Drew gone we might have held onto Reddick since that made us weak in the outfield but my gripe with you is the here and now. I don't know how you cannot judge it. Sweeney is gone and Bailey may soon follow, that or he is relegated to a minor and not the closing role. Meanwhile Reddick is not an All Star. With the AL East now anyone's pick the Red Sox should always be contending. You can do both as we did in 2007 when the division was even stronger.

[iortiz]

I don't believe that I weighed in much on Sanchez. Very few deals are perfect slam dunks. If they are waiting for perfect deals, they will never make a deal. Arguments can and have been made against each of the deals where we signed positional players. There can always be arguments both pro and con made with regard to any acquisition or trade. It's not an excuse to do nothing.

 

We passed on Buehrle, Gio, Jackson, Sanchez, Kuroda, and didn't push that much for guys like Johnson, Garza, etc.

 

C'mon, those are good arms. People around here expect that the stars align and somehow we land a guy like Felix, Cain, CC, Kershaw, Doc, etc. in 2014 or so.

 

IMO, Ain't happening.

 

Unless we build our rotation from within -- which I do not like it cause gonna take another 3-4 years and be a loooong if so -- or start landing these type of arms and make us on paper more competitive and balanced.

[Spitball]

The number of options have been very slim this offseason. The deals that I bet Ben missed out on are:

 

1) Trade with Angels for Haren, and then pickup his option. The Angels lost money in the buyout, so I seriously believe that he could have been had for next-to-nothing.

 

I agree. He would have been a better gamble than Dempster.

 

2) Shin-Soo Choo for Trevor Bauer? I bet Ellsbury could have replaced Choo in that deal, given that Choo has a similar injury history, a fast-approaching free agency, and significantly lower ceiling.

 

This. Cincinnati surely would have preferred a true centerfielder, Ellsbury, playing centerfield next year.

 

3) Shaun Marcum/Guthrie have AL East experience, and both could probably be had cheaper than Dempster.

 

Guthrie signed with KC pretty quickly. I don't think he was interested in shopping his services. After watching Marcum in the 2011 division playoffs, I am leery of his talent level.

 

Johnson would have been nice, but the Jays paid a ridiculous amount to get him. Mccarthy is a big question mark. Scott Baker however, might have been worth a solid one year deal. Sanchez/Greinke/Jackson/Lohse all have pretty hilarious price tags, and I bet were worth avoiding.

 

I agree.

[User Name]

I agree with all of the above except Bauer, whose wildness and character issues made him a poor fit. Haren seemed like a match made in heaven regardless of what they saw in his physical because it was just a one year deal.

[seabeachfred]

Agreed. Also i thought the trade for Hanrahan would have brought in a 1B/SP prospect but neither happened they got another projected utilty infielder. Didnt make much sense to me. Ive read where Jon Heyman keeps say the Sox are interested in Lohse how can they sign him with the cap they are done around the $170million mark plus a draft pick would have to be given to the Cardinals. So much this offseason that no one understands.

 

Well you can take what 700 says to your favorite bank. He doesn't pull any punches and even makes me a milk toast by comparison. My friend took me to task because he thought I was being too unrealistic for believing the Red Sox might surprise people this year when in reality my point was that we JUST HAD TO BE BETTER THAN THAT SHITPILE OF A TEAM WE HAD LAST SEASON. To me that would be an improvement, maybe even a big one.

 

However, you, 700, iortiz and others are firmly in the belief that the Red Sox front office has been close to incompetent the past few seasons and we have been going at it with the pollyannas, apologists and ball washers who keep defending them even when they are trying to criticise them with their meely mouth rationalizations.

 

Yes I do think we could m ake a comeback this season IF Lester and Buchholz have big years and Lackey comes back and pitches as he did before he got hurt. I also think we then could get by with our offense and should have a good bullpen, but I said could, not will. If JL and CB s*** in the bed we are done, and one thing I will never retreat on one twit. Our front office has done a s***** job the past few years and I still dont know what the hell their program is for this year or the next few seasons. I don't think they know either.

[User Name]

We passed on Buehrle, Gio, Jackson, Sanchez, Kuroda, and didn't push that much for guys like Johnson, Garza, etc.

 

C'mon, those are good arms. People around here expect that the stars align and somehow we land a guy like Felix, Cain, CC, Kershaw, Doc, etc. in 2014 or so.

 

IMO, Ain't happening.

 

Unless we build our rotation from within -- which I do not like it cause gonna take another 3-4 years and be a loooong if so -- or start landing these type of arms and make us on paper more competitive and balanced.

 

Building the rotation from within is exactly what they intends to do. Whether we like it or not is inconsequential since it's the right thing to do. Every team in the league who's been moderately successful the past couple of years has done exactly that. You have said several times how good of a GM Friedman is. Well, that's his model for building a winner.

[BSN07]

BSN, let's get one thing straight. If I think you are a ballwasher I will tell your straight off. I know no other way. I do think you may be an apologist. This stuff, I understood the move but didn't mean I liked it, is pure fluff. If you didn't like the move you should have said so and not try and throw the front office a parachute. Under normal circumstances I could have lived with the trade but with Kalish hurt and Drew gone we might have held onto Reddick since that made us weak in the outfield but my gripe with you is the here and now. I don't know how you cannot judge it. Sweeney is gone and Bailey may soon follow, that or he is relegated to a minor and not the closing role. Meanwhile Reddick is not an All Star. With the AL East now anyone's pick the Red Sox should always be contending. You can do both as we did in 2007 when the division was even stronger.

 

I did. I bitched, pissed, moaned and went down in a kicking temper tantrum when they signed Dempster. Thing is I can't do f all about it and have decided instead of beating the deal to death I'm just gonna shut my mouth and hope for the best. What I DO like about the deal is it's not long term and is a movable deal. That added to the fact they didn't move any of the promising young SP prospects pushes me more towards the neutral area when looking at the deal overall. I don't like it, but don't hate it. Things don't have to be black or white for me I guess.

[Voice of Reason]

I wish you had a little more imagination. You'll never be successful as a GM with that kind of defeatist attitude. I was hoping that you had some good ideas to discuss.

 

That doesn't mean much coming from someone who's given zero ideas of their own. If you believe the Red Sox FO should have done more to improve the future of the starting rotation, then put up or shut up.

[a700hitter]

Well you can take what 700 says to your favorite bank. He doesn't pull any punches and even makes me a milk toast by comparison. My friend took me to task because he thought I was being too unrealistic for believing the Red Sox might surprise people this year when in reality my point was that we JUST HAD TO BE BETTER THAN THAT SHITPILE OF A TEAM WE HAD LAST SEASON. To me that would be an improvement, maybe even a big one.

 

However, you, 700, iortiz and others are firmly in the belief that the Red Sox front office has been close to incompetent the past few seasons and we have been going at it with the pollyannas, apologists and ball washers who keep defending them even when they are trying to criticise them with their meely mouth rationalizations.

 

Yes I do think we could m ake a comeback this season IF Lester and Buchholz have big years and Lackey comes back and pitches as he did before he got hurt. I also think we then could get by with our offense and should have a good bullpen, but I said could, not will. If JL and CB s*** in the bed we are done, and one thing I will never retreat on one twit. Our front office has done a s***** job the past few years and I still dont know what the hell their program is for this year or the next few seasons. I don't think they know either.

Fred, I share your hope that their will be a marked improvement in our starting pitching in 2013. I have to have hope. My hope lies in that Salty will get jettisoned. Couple that with a healthy Lackey and Buchholz and there should be improvement. I have much less hope if Salty stays and we have the same group of guys except Dempster and Lackey are added and Beckett subtracted. I don't hold out a lot of hope for Dempster, but nobody else is singing his praises, and a post-op Lackey replacing Beckett is not encouraging ether. Salty leaving could raise everyone's performance.

[seabeachfred]

And how exactly do any of you know that trades for sp were not exploited? That's a ridiculous statement.

 

Also, what's hard to understand about the offseason? They focused on plugging holes and creating positional flexibility without tying themselves up long term and without giving up picks. This was done so they could stick to that development approach bsn mentioned but that a700hitter clearly doesn't understand.

 

And how do you know that trades for SP were exploited? You don't know any more than the rest of us who think otherwise. You see, we're on to you and your blind faith and confidence and support of the front office. Some of us aren't and we have the last four years of failure as all the proof we need that those in charge of the Red Sox have done a s***** job in getting the team up to speed. As for 700 not understanding the Red Sox approach, where the hell do y ou come off saying something as stupid as that? Ted isn't wearing a blindfold in seeing how ineptly the team has been run these past few years.

[User Name]

And how do you know that trades for SP were exploited? You don't know any more than the rest of us who think otherwise. You see, we're on to you and your blind faith and confidence and support of the front office. Some of us aren't and we have the last four years of failure as all the proof we need that those in charge of the Red Sox have done a s***** job in getting the team up to speed. As for 700 not understanding the Red Sox approach, where the hell do y ou come off saying something as stupid as that? Ted isn't wearing a blindfold in seeing how ineptly the team has been run these past few years.

 

That's the point Fred. None of us know. But take the whining aside, and what do you think is more plausible, that they did or that they didn't?

[Emmz]

Unfortunately, I don't think there's much more they could have done. I don't like that they're paying $178 million for a team that likely won't make the playoffs but rebuilding the starting rotation is going to be a longterm project. At least they didn't give up any draft picks, trade any pitching prospects or take away Doubront's spot in the rotation.

 

That's just my opinion though. If you feel otherwise, I'd love to hear what some of your ideas are for what they could have done differently. I understand why you'd be hesitant to answer that though, it's not an easy one.

 

Hey Dutchy, what's the happs?

[seabeachfred]

Actually it does address the future. By passing on Grienke, Sanchez and Jackson they have not blocked future pieces(they believe these players have a shot to make it, you don't I know).

 

They also kept the future salary space they are going to have in 3 seasons(every current big money contract will have expired). They young core that the team is building will be at the beginning of it's run and they will have all the $ they want to finish off the product. The current team is built to keep fans like you civil. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. What I mean is fans who invest a large portion of their discretionary income(season ticket holders, group package types). With their ticket prices they can't go into full rebuild mode unless the lowered prices and thats not happening. So instead they build a short term team for the next 2-3 years and look for their next group of prospects to become the core.

 

I don't know if you just don't get it or don't want to get it. If you step back and look at it without a "WS or bust this season" glasses, it seems very plausible that this could be in some manor the plan of the current FO in building a contender. If it works great, if it doesn't the will find a new group with a new direction and approach.

 

What we can't do is look at what the old group did and expect the current group to do the same just because they worked together. Barnes, Hoyer, Cherries all have a base that is similar but each has his own style and way of going about roster construction. I also see Lucchino having less pull then he has recently(thank God). The Valentine and Crawford catastrophes I think have cost him a bit of power. Thus another reason added to why the team has been less risk taking this off season.

 

You sound like we've just come off a good run of success and must plan carefully for the future when in fact we've come off four years of failure and underachieving and five years in which we have won NOTHING!!!!!! Why wasn't things being done when we were on top to keep us there? Instead rot was allowed to eat into the very core of the team. Some of us are tired of this failure and demanding action to get us back on top. This planning for the future is neither a panacea or guarantee that we will get there. You win with solid players with experience and adding a good young player or two each year. You don't by planning on getting them all together at one time and flood them into the lineup. We won the former way in 2007. We have forgotten how to do that---the FO, that is.

[BSN07]

And how do you know that trades for SP were exploited? You don't know any more than the rest of us who think otherwise. You see, we're on to you and your blind faith and confidence and support of the front office. Some of us aren't and we have the last four years of failure as all the proof we need that those in charge of the Red Sox have done a s***** job in getting the team up to speed. As for 700 not understanding the Red Sox approach, where the hell do y ou come off saying something as stupid as that? Ted isn't wearing a blindfold in seeing how ineptly the team has been run these past few years.

 

We think trades were explored because that's what teams do. They also don't make moves just to make them. It's not blind faith to comprehend they had a plan going into the off season that certain players did not fit in for one reason or another.

 

To think a modern day organization had NO discussions at all pertaining to pitching during an entire off season is certifiable. You have an agenda or some kind of bias if you actually think this.

 

And again, they did make moves to address the pitching as a whole. Just because you or I don't like particular moves doesn't mean they didn't happen. No one is wearing a blindfold, but your camp that hates anything and everything the FO have lost it. Your arguing against people who are in the middle as far as liking/disliking the body of work and calling us apologists. You have selective memory that fits your agenda. If you didn't you'd realize most of us have some issue or another with the FO and aren't washing balls all day just because we don't bang the hate drum on every..single..thing..they..do......

[Porcupine penis]

Trade Ellsbury, Lester, Boagarts, Bradley and Dempster for Stanton.

[redsoxrules]

Worst trade ever

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Yeah, that's a really bad proposal.

[seabeachfred]

I did. I bitched, pissed, moaned and went down in a kicking temper tantrum when they signed Dempster. Thing is I can't do f all about it and have decided instead of beating the deal to death I'm just gonna shut my mouth and hope for the best. What I DO like about the deal is it's not long term and is a movable deal. That added to the fact they didn't move any of the promising young SP prospects pushes me more towards the neutral area when looking at the deal overall. I don't like it, but don't hate it. Things don't have to be black or white for me I guess.

 

Fine BSN---that makes things a lot clearer for me. As for the Dempster signing, I didn't know you had such a negative reaction to it. For me, I just shrugged as said another half-ass signing even though I keep hoping me might work out.

 

I don't know if you knew or remembered this but I coached baseball teams for over30 years until I retired from it after the 1996 season. I started in Pony, went to Colt, then Connie Mack, Senior Babe Ruth and Stan Musial---from 13 to the thirties. I also scouted.....not for a team but for scouts who valued by jdgment of talent. That is why I often take a very aggressive stance against the front office. I never thought Theo Epstein was a ver good judge of talent and I think Cherington is even worse, if that is possible.

 

Unlike you, however, I still have little confidence in the front office actually knowing what their overall plan is. And keep this in mind....there is nothing personal in my arguing with you when we disagree. I know you're a solid baseball man. We just see some things differently.

[seabeachfred]

That's the point Fred. None of us know. But take the whining aside, and what do you think is more plausible, that they did or that they didn't?

 

Honest User????? I really don't know. My heart says t hey had to be exploring all avenues to improve the pitching but my head was saying something entirely different. By now you know I have my doubts about the ability of our front office. I'm taking the high road for this coming season actually believing that Lester and Buchholz can finally have their big seasons and that Lackey and Doubrant will stand up and be counted. If that doesn't happen it will be another long season. I will have to endure it if it happens but I'm just crazy enough to go off the deep end if it happens. I want a s uccessful 2013 season as bad and you or anyone else on this board.

[Voice of Reason]

Too many balls in the air this year. We need to wait and see what we have in Lester, Buchholz, Doubront, De La Rosa, Barnes, De La Rosa, Wright before we assess our starting pitching needs. I doubt one top of the rotation starter is going to turn us in to a 90 win team. Does't make much sense to wipe our farm system and/or budget in order to acquire a starter now if we're going to waste their next one or two years of team control on teams that miss the playoffs.

[a700hitter]

That doesn't mean much coming from someone who's given zero ideas of their own. If you believe the Red Sox FO should have done more to improve the future of the starting rotation, then put up or shut up.

Yeah, yeah. I told you that I would get back to you on this when you hit 250 posts. I have over 30,000 posts. I am very busy on this site. I can't waste my time engaging the baiting of a newbie with 5 posts.

[a700hitter]

That doesn't mean much coming from someone who's given zero ideas of their own. If you believe the Red Sox FO should have done more to improve the future of the starting rotation, then put up or shut up.

Yeah, yeah. I told you that I would get back to you on this when you hit 250 posts. I have over 30,000 posts. I am very busy on this site. I can't waste my time engaging the baiting of a newbie with 5 posts. Patience.

[Lucienbel]

I'm not the biggest fan of the Dempster signing either but hopefully it works out. Dempster is a sinker sort of pitcher so at the least he should have that in his favor at Fenway. Keep the balls on the ground and you won't totally get annihilated in Fenway. Not my favorite deal by any means, but I suppose at this point all we can do is hope.

[a700hitter]

Talk is cheap. We may live in a world of political correctness where no one can judge anyone else. Every student gets promoted and everyone gets a trophy. However, even in this world where you can't tell someone that they are wrong because you might hurt their feelings, you don't get any awards for failed negotiations. It doesn't matter if they talked to every team about every player. They made one move to improve the organization's starting pitching which has been horrendous since September 1, 2011. They acquired Ryan Dempster. That is some miserable work by the FO IMO. Feel free to disagree and make your excuses and rationalizations. I have heard them all over and over, and I am completely unconvinced. None of you believed me last year when I told you that we didn't have the pitching, so forgive me for trusting my one instincts this time around.

[Voice of Reason]

It's not an excuse to point out that there weren't a lot of moves to be made and that it wouldn't make sense to give up a lot of money or prospects when we're not going to be competitive next year anyways. Whining that the team didn't do enough to improve the pitching, drawing a blank when asked how and continuing to whine anyways is just petulant.

[Voice of Reason]

Yeah, yeah. I told you that I would get back to you on this when you hit 250 posts. I have over 30,000 posts. I am very busy on this site. I can't waste my time engaging the baiting of a newbie with 5 posts. Patience.

 

You mean in 250 posts maybe you'll think of a way the Red Sox could have improved the pitching? Let me guess, you'll pick out a starter who's having the year of his career and suggest the Red Sox should have acquired him.

[seabeachfred]

You mean in 250 posts maybe you'll think of a way the Red Sox could have improved the pitching? Let me guess, you'll pick out a starter who's having the year of his career and suggest the Red Sox should have acquired him.

 

I've been going back and forth with User the past couple of weeks but earlier he hit a home run when he said we most likely blew it when we didn't get Dan Haren. I said this before he became a free agent because everyone I talked to connected in any way with the Angels insisted they were not ging to pick up his option. He showed me plenty the last part of the season when he seemed to finally be free of arm and elbow troubles. I think we should have either traded for him or leaped at him the moment he became a free agent.

 

And for the record, I still insist we should make a concerted effort to get Shawn Marcum. Now he's no No. 1 ace but I think he could be a solid No. 3, and keep in mind he has extensive exerience competing in the AL East. There still is time to grab him if we have the will.

[iortiz]

Talk is cheap. We may live in a world of political correctness where no one can judge anyone else. Every student gets promoted and everyone gets a trophy. However, even in this world where you can't tell someone that they are wrong because you might hurt their feelings, you don't get any awards for failed negotiations. It doesn't matter if they talked to every team about every player. They made one move to improve the organization's starting pitching which has been horrendous since September 1, 2011. They acquired Ryan Dempster. That is some miserable work by the FO IMO. Feel free to disagree and make your excuses and rationalizations. I have heard them all over and over, and I am completely unconvinced. None of you believed me last year when I told you that we didn't have the pitching, so forgive me for trusting my one instincts this time around.

 

I'm not sure why people still defending this FO. It is horrendous. As the team is currently assembled, IMO we're a 4th place team in the ALE with the same 2012 payroll, unbelievable!. Lamentable execution by our FO thus far. Hopefully I eat my words.

 

BTW, do not worry, we will be competitive in 2018 or so hahahaha ********!