Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[example1]

You always, yes always, look to make things personal. ^ This post is crap. You are acting like a huge blowhard. Learn to make a distinction between an opinion about sports and attacking people.:thumbdown

 

How do you not take something personally when he posts things challenging the cognitive capacity of people who believe certain things? I'm not the only one who is offended by his style, and its obvious he and you don't like mine. Too bad.

 

If someone comes on here and calls up down and says anyone who doesn't see it is basically not credible or thinking straight I'm going to get offended. I'm not losing sleep over it and perhaps you intuit more into my posts than I intend but yeah, he's making a claim about a group of people of which apparently I'm one.

 

Fred and I are fine. As are you and I. However, you continually point out the personal stuff around my posts (ie "here's you taking things personally again) and ignore things like numbers and results. I posted WAR numbers there to back up my point. I think they point to a flaw in his hyperbolic argument. Instead you try to make me seem like an overly sensitive douchebag and ignore the substance of my point. It's tired and not becoming of the king of talksox or that gentle dog picture on your profile pic.

[User Name]

Napoli is more interested in Boston because of a better chance of team success. Boston is more "appealing" than Seattle. Although, the years for him is a big factor. It would not come as a surprise if he signs with Seattle if they offer four and we stay at three. A team option or mutual option for a fourth might get the job done. Jen Royle is reporting that Mike Napoli is likely to sign with the Red Sox during winter meetings, who is a friend of Mike. I like the move.

 

I don't understand this line of thinking. The Red Sox were a 69-win team last year. If anything, there's a better chance of personal success for Napoli than there is of team success. His swing is tailor-made for the monster.

 

What would it take to get Jon Niese from the Mets? The Mets need a C and they might be interested in Salty in a package deal. Niese is only 25 and had a career year last year. He had a 3.40 ERA, 1.172 WHIP, and pitched 190.1 innings. He is also under team control through 2016. If he can consistently pitch those numbers, then that would be a plus. Would Doubront and Salty be enough to get Niese, or would we have to do Salty, Doubront, and prospect(s)?

 

Soft-tossing lefties with homer-itis do not typically do well at Fenway. And for the record, Doubront for him? Doubront actually has higher upside. You'd be trading him for a guy who'd probably do worst in the Al East next year.

[BSN07]

UN--that's the problem my friend. I don't know who is running the show over there and neither do you or 700 or BSN or anyone else. They say Ben is the GM so he should start acting like one. Make the offer and let Luchhino over-rule him. Believe me the press will pick up on it if you have it pegged right. It is time for Ben to show some balls and make the move. He would gain new respect from the fans and he might not do too badly with Henry either.

 

I see Ben being more of a Jed Hoyer or Rick Hahn GM.

 

I think Ben's role as GM is basically run the farm system, handle most of the ML roster. Any major acquisition consisting of large number of prospects/$/and lengthy contracts FA/Extension wise will need approval from higher up. Deals like the August blockbuster for the most part are going to be worked out with the higher ups, Ben's input coming in the form of who they should be trying to get back.

 

That's why I don't understand why everyone throws everything at his feet instead of the Red Sox FO as a whole.

[Elktonnick]

I see Ben being more of a Jed Hoyer or Rick Hahn GM. He's capable of doing somethings on his own. But the Bigger deals are being ok'd and in some cases even negotiated higher up. That's why I don't understand why everyone throws everything at his feet instead of the Red Sox FO as a whole.

 

I think it comes with the job title, GM. Ben is the face of the FO. I certainly agree that others are pulling the strings. I actually have come to the view that John Henry is now playing a more active role in day to day matters than he has done previously. I also agree with Fred's point that Ben is deliberate to a fault and he is risk adverse. He was described that way when he was hired. As I have said before Ben isn't a GM in the Dick O'Connell or Dan Duquette mode. I think he is more a coordinator of baseball operations with a fancier title. Whoever is actually making the final decisions, the Sox are going nowhere until they address the pitching. Napoli Gomes Ross et al are just distractions from the real issues. With this rotation, bullpen and closer, this team won't win 80 games regardless of whether they sign Napoli or retain Cody Ross.

[BSN07]

I think it comes with the job title, GM. Ben is the face of the FO. I certainly agree that others are pulling the strings. I actually have come to the view that John Henry is now playing a more active role in day to day matters than he has done previously. I also agree with Fred's point that Ben is deliberate to a fault and he is risk adverse. He was described that way when he was hired. As I have said before Ben isn't a GM in the Dick O'Connell or Dan Duquette mode. I think he is more a coordinator of baseball operations with a fancier title. Whoever is actually making the final decisions, the Sox are going nowhere until they address the pitching. Napoli Gomes Ross et al are just distractions from the real issues. With this rotation, bullpen and closer, this team won't win 80 games regardless of whether they sign Napoli or retain Cody Ross.

 

How do you know? How do you know it's not the guys you admitted to pulling the strings being the ones deliberate to a fault and risk adverse? It would make more sense that those are the guys that are risk adverse at this point in time since they were the ones that had deals blow up in their faces recently.

 

Let's also not forget the rumors of Henry having less millions laying around. The FO could be operating at a real budget. I'm on record as saying I wouldn't be surprised if the entered the year with a payroll at around 130M. If that't the case, those 3rd year's for Ross types, or that 4th year for Napoli start becoming more or a worry then an after thought when your payroll is up at the threshold limit.

[Palodios]

Shane Victorino is coming off an off year and will see his stock drop. We tend to look at recent production, and lots of players have great walk year and reap the benefits.

 

Adrian Beltre was a very good signing as he was coming off poor recent production. Victorino is a somewhat similar story and just might be the best buy in outfield talent...and the best replacement for Ellsbury if he walks away.

 

I've been a big Victorino fan all offseason. I would argue not only that he would be a smart pickup on a one year deal, but also that grabbing him as a bargain long-term contract would be a great idea for the team that you can add to your roster and build around like Middlbrooks/Pedroia etc. He's only a year removed from a 6 WAR season, and in a down year was still at 3.3.

[BSN07]

I've been a big Victorino fan all offseason. I would argue not only that he would be a smart pickup on a one year deal, but also that grabbing him as a bargain long-term contract would be a great idea for the team that you can add to your roster and build around like Middlbrooks/Pedroia etc. He's only a year removed from a 6 WAR season, and in a down year was still at 3.3.

 

I like Victorino if they are moving Ellsbury. Long term? Not so much. I'd be ok with 2 years. But I think Bradley will be knocking at the door in year 2.

[Elktonnick]

How do you know? How do you know it's not the guys you admitted to pulling the strings being the ones deliberate to a fault and risk adverse? It would make more sense that those are the guys that are risk adverse at this point in time since they were the ones that had deals blow up in their faces recently.

 

Let's also not forget the rumors of Henry having less millions laying around. The FO could be operating at a real budget. I'm on record as saying I wouldn't be surprised if the entered the year with a payroll at around 130M. If that't the case, those 3rd year's for Ross types, or that 4th year for Napoli start becoming more or a worry then an after thought when your payroll is up at the threshold limit.

 

First of all when Cherries wa soriginally hired those who knew him described him as very deliberate some times overly so. As to the rest it is my opinion based on observation and events and my analysis of the results. I could be wrong or I could be right that's why it is called an opinion. BTW just so I am absolutely clear, I think Ben is way over his head. I won't trust him with my ML franchise if I were the owner.

 

As for the rumors of JH having less millions , he had to shut down his commodity business because the assets went from 2.6 billion in 2006 to 100 million this year. That's a fact.

[User Name]

Those who knew? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

People, you are not psychologists. You are baseball fans, and even if you are, you don't know Cherington. Stop pretending that you do.

[Bellhorn04]

As for the rumors of JH having less millions , he had to shut down his commodity business because the assets went from 2.6 billion in 2006 to 100 million this year. That's a fact.

 

The 2.6 billion and 100 million figures represent the assets that Henry's firm was managing for investors. Henry himself still has a net worth of 1.5 billion as of Sept/12 per Forbes magazine.

[jacksonianmarch]

Napoli is holding out for a 4 yr contract. That might be a wee bit too steep IMO

[Behindenemylines]

Napoli at 3 years is where I would draw the line. If he choices Seattle and the 4th year they seem to be offering just move on. I not 100% sold on him as the Sox every day 1B. A strong glove at first base can save a lot of runs over the coarse of a season and I'm not sure if he is the answer.

[BSN07]

I would give him 3 years and an attainable 4th year vesting option for AB's if they are that worried about a 4th guaranteed year.

 

Either that or try and bump the AAV up on the 3 year offer. If Seattle is offering 4/44 then offer 3/40.

[User Name]

Napoli at 3 years is where I would draw the line. If he choices Seattle and the 4th year they seem to be offering just move on. I not 100% sold on him as the Sox every day 1B. A strong glove at first base can save a lot of runs over the coarse of a season and I'm not sure if he is the answer.

 

Napoli is primarily a catcher. And he doesn't need to be the answer at 1B. He could also take over for Ortiz at DH after his current contract runs out. Four years sounds about right to me.

[BSN07]

Napoli is primarily a catcher. And he doesn't need to be the answer at 1B. He could also take over for Ortiz at DH after his current contract runs out. Four years sounds about right to me.

 

I'm not too hung up on the 4th year. I figure he's DH by year 3 anyways.

[Palodios]

If the 4th year is the stopping point, I think at some point they need to give in, and give it to him, or find some compromise. There is a very good chance he'll be a .900 OPS guy in Boston -- is that not worth a 4/60 contract?

[Palodios]

The other important thing to note about Napoli is that by signing him, they take a free agent catcher off the market, and increase the value of Salty/Lavs.

[BSN07]

The other important thing to note about Napoli is that by signing him, they take a free agent catcher off the market, and increase the value of Salty/Lavs.

 

That's also a good point that hadn't been brought up before.

 

When it comes to Lavs or Salty? I think Salty would be odd man out. I think they would have to maybe not be blown away to trade him, but get more then they were expecting to move Lavs. I think the plan was to bring in a guy like Ross to bring Lavs along.

[jacksonianmarch]

The issue becomes, where does he play? In Anaheim and Texas, he was a guy who could DH for you. In Boston, that spot is full. He's a complete butcher behind the dish and his history of recurrent injuries makes catching risky. And he isnt really a 1b. He's a bat with no real position. My guess is they will have him as the emergency catcher, play him mostly at first and fill in at DH when Papi needs a rest or is hurt. Then in yr 3, he'd move to DH full time

[BSN07]

I think he plays mostly at 1B. Will DH for Papi(I think he get's some games off this year) and he would be injury insurance for Lavs/Ross if one misses any time at C. 110 games at 1B, 30 at DH. Seems reasonable.

[jung]

I really worry about the Sox stockpiling potential DH's for the future.....why....none of them will ever be what Ortiz has been.....not even close. Once the Ortiz era ends, the Sox should start to handle the DH position differently. If you want an aging bat at that time, go get one. If not, rotate players in as opposed to having a dedicated DH.

[jacksonianmarch]

I really worry about the Sox stockpiling potential DH's for the future.....why....none of them will ever be what Ortiz has been.....not even close. Once the Ortiz era ends, the Sox should start to handle the DH position differently. If you want an aging bat at that time, go get one. If not, rotate players in as opposed to having a dedicated DH.

 

Rotating players into a DH role is good for teams with older players. But now that the sox have effectively dealt away all their older players, it really would be a hole if Ortiz moved on. I think it is a yr by yr thing for the sox once Papi retires. If the sox reload with veterans and suddenly they have a few 35+ yr old regulars out there, then they kinda have to leave the Dh spot open. If in 2 yrs they are full of young players then they can afford a 1 yr DH stopgap signing

[a700hitter]

How do you not take something personally when he posts things challenging the cognitive capacity of people who believe certain things? I'm not the only one who is offended by his style, and its obvious he and you don't like mine. Too bad.

 

If someone comes on here and calls up down and says anyone who doesn't see it is basically not credible or thinking straight I'm going to get offended. I'm not losing sleep over it and perhaps you intuit more into my posts than I intend but yeah, he's making a claim about a group of people of which apparently I'm one.

 

Fred and I are fine. As are you and I. However, you continually point out the personal stuff around my posts (ie "here's you taking things personally again) and ignore things like numbers and results. I posted WAR numbers there to back up my point. I think they point to a flaw in his hyperbolic argument. Instead you try to make me seem like an overly sensitive douchebag and ignore the substance of my point. It's tired and not becoming of the king of talksox or that gentle dog picture on your profile pic.

Fred's statement was that he felt that the GMs inaction cannot be overlooked and that our s***** pitching cannot be spun to look good. He feels that it is unreasonable to do otherwise. You are overly sensitive if you take that personally. Get over yourself. Your post was a direct frontal personal attack. I don't know how you can see that? You constantly challenge my cognitive ability in an insulting manner. I have learned to let that kind of stuff go, but you should know that it is personally insulting, nevermind offensive. If you can't see that your post to Fred was an uncalled for personal attack, than I question your cognitive ability. Seriously, can you just debate the sports and not the posters. You talk stats and WAR, and I am well aware of those stats. I was pointing out stats during the season to show that Lester's game has been declining for 2 seasons, not 1. This gives me cause to be concerned that this is a trend and not outlier bad season. I am sorry that you didn't see those posts or you forgot them. I know the stats. I know who is in our minor league system and how they are doing, so stop trying to act like I don't do my homework or know my stuff. I don't believe in using cherry picked stats to contradict what is clearly indicate by observation and other stats. Please support your own arguments without insulting others and worse yet wrongly assuming the intent of other posters. Your record in divining intent has been almost 100% wrong. You read stuff through a warped filter. It ain't working, so do us all a favor and just give us the facts, mam.

[a700hitter]

First of all when Cherries wa soriginally hired those who knew him described him as very deliberate some times overly so. As to the rest it is my opinion based on observation and events and my analysis of the results. I could be wrong or I could be right that's why it is called an opinion. BTW just so I am absolutely clear, I think Ben is way over his head. I won't trust him with my ML franchise if I were the owner.

 

As for the rumors of JH having less millions , he had to shut down his commodity business because the assets went from 2.6 billion in 2006 to 100 million this year. That's a fact.

Also, in one of his post season mea culpas, Cherries admitted to have taken too long to act in certain instances. I do give the guy credit for taking direct accountability for 2012 and for recognizing where he fell short. That gives me hope that things will improve.

[Palodios]

Also, in one of his post season mea culpas, Cherries admitted to have taken too long to act in certain instances. I do give the guy credit for taking direct accountability for 2012 and for recognizing where he fell short. That gives me hope that things will improve.

 

The one example I'm thinking of is how they handled the manager situation, and how it went on and on and on, and it got in the way of making acquisitions. However, in that case, it seemed like Ben was putting effort into a manager, and then the big wigs essentially wasted his time.

[Palodios]

The issue becomes, where does he play? In Anaheim and Texas, he was a guy who could DH for you. In Boston, that spot is full. He's a complete butcher behind the dish and his history of recurrent injuries makes catching risky. And he isnt really a 1b. He's a bat with no real position. My guess is they will have him as the emergency catcher, play him mostly at first and fill in at DH when Papi needs a rest or is hurt. Then in yr 3, he'd move to DH full time

 

Defensively he is been below average at first base, but I'm assuming that is due to inexperience at the position-- he only plays there 15-20 games a season.

 

He also is very useful in interleague games. If Papi needs to play first, pull out Salty/Lavs and put Napoli at C. Voila.

[a700hitter]

The one example I'm thinking of is how they handled the manager situation, and how it went on and on and on, and it got in the way of making acquisitions. However, in that case, it seemed like Ben was putting effort into a manager, and then the big wigs essentially wasted his time.

I don't know if he was referring to a particular circumstance or event, but he is not running from or denying his missteps. That is admirable.

[example1]

Fred's statement was that he felt that the GMs inaction cannot be overlooked and that our s***** pitching cannot be spun to look good. He feels that it is unreasonable to do otherwise. You are overly sensitive if you take that personally. Get over yourself. Your post was a direct frontal personal attack. I don't know how you can see that? You constantly challenge my cognitive ability in an insulting manner. I have learned to let that kind of stuff go, but you should know that it is personally insulting, nevermind offensive. If you can't see that your post to Fred was an uncalled for personal attack, than I question your cognitive ability. Seriously, can you just debate the sports and not the posters. You talk stats and WAR, and I am well aware of those stats. I was pointing out stats during the season to show that Lester's game has been declining for 2 seasons, not 1. This gives me cause to be concerned that this is a trend and not outlier bad season. I am sorry that you didn't see those posts or you forgot them. I know the stats. I know who is in our minor league system and how they are doing, so stop trying to act like I don't do my homework or know my stuff. I don't believe in using cherry picked stats to contradict what is clearly indicate by observation and other stats. Please support your own arguments without insulting others and worse yet wrongly assuming the intent of other posters. Your record in divining intent has been almost 100% wrong. You read stuff through a warped filter. It ain't working, so do us all a favor and just give us the facts, mam.

 

Defensive rant much? I didn't mention anything about minor leaguers. Support my own posts without insulting others? Please. Fred is constantly insulting the intelligence of others here, but you don't see it because he's not directing it to you. No need to rush to his defense, he can handle himself.

[jacksonianmarch]

If Napoli was a serviceable first baseman, he would have started there last yr when they had Michael Young playing. It isnt like he never practiced there.

[Palodios]

If Napoli was a serviceable first baseman, he would have started there last yr when they had Michael Young playing. It isnt like he never practiced there.

 

Catching is a big energy sink for players. They have many more responsibilities than other position players. It is also a very different position to field than other infield positions. I'm not saying Napoli is going to be stellar, but his defensive stats at first are extremely small sample sizes based on generally low amount of experience at the position.