What's next for Daniel Bard?

[seabeachfred]

That's not accurate' date=' many people predicted that this is exactly what would happen.[/quote']

 

And you were front and center from Day One on this debacle Elk, and Pumpsie, Brennan, Muggah and I were not too far behind on it either. It made no sense to me at all. Here was a guy who was an abject failure as a starter in Class "A" Ball, was more successful as a reliever than a starter at UNC---and still Pukington (that's the GM by the way SCM) decided he knew more than BarF's college coach and the scouts and managers who coached him in the minors. Well I don't think there are too many, if any, who haven't by now seen that our GM is in over his head, is scared shitless to do anything to remedy our problems, is risk averse to make a move and is in his first and last GM's job. It wouldn't surprise me to see this bum head for Chi Town and once again become a spread sheet and compter printout nerd for his old boss Epstink.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

[a700hitter]

And you were front and center from Day One on this debacle Elk' date=' and Pumpsie, Brennan, Muggah and I were not too far behind on it either. It made no sense to me at all. Here was a guy who was an abject failure as a starter in Class "A" Ball, was more successful as a reliever than a starter at UNC---and still Pukington (that's the GM by the way SCM) decided he knew more than BarF's college coach and the scouts and managers who coached him in the minors. Well I don't think there are too many, if any, who haven't by now seen that our GM is in over his head, is scared shitless to do anything to remedy our problems, is risk averse to make a move and is in his first and last GM's job. It wouldn't surprise me to see this bum head for Chi Town and once again become a spread sheet and compter printout nerd for his old boss Epstink.:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown[/quote']Hey Fred, did you enjoy Chicago? At least they won two of three games that weekend, although it wasn't pretty. I was thinking about you during the Sunday night game, because we played so stupidly and sloppily. I figured that your head felt like exploding when we pulled a few of those rocks.

[seabeachfred]

Is there really question about "how this went down"? Bard wanted to start. The Sox wanted him to start. The two agreed. If Bard hadn't wanted to start, he probably still would have been stretched out as a starter and Valentine would have ended up putting him in the pen. The Sox didn't necessarily want him to close. The list of starters available this off-season was poor, Bard could hit 100mph with his FB. It's not rocket science here fellas. If it had worked out he could have been a very nice and cheap SP. It didn't so now they are working him back up as a reliever.

 

I read some quotes from Bard saying, essentially, that as a reliever he used a lower arm slot that allowed him to throw harder but effected his command. As a starter he needed the command but lost the velocity. Overall he lost the arm slot that he spent so much time in the minors developing.

 

Pessimists can declare the project as lost and Bard washed up as a pitcher. Optimists can hope he regains the arm slot that allowed him to be one of the best setup men in baseball. All of us can wait to see what happens.

 

You can wait EX1 if you want, I don't need to. BarF is done!!!!!!! Don't expect him to rebound back to form. He always was perceived as being a little short on grey matter and inside he is mentally weak. His mind, mechanics and sense of wish fulfillment are all up in smoke. Maybe I'll eat my words but I don't think so.

[a700hitter]

You can wait EX1 if you want' date=' I don't need to. BarF is done!!!!!!! Don't expect him to rebound back to form. He always was perceived as being a little short on grey matter and inside he is mentally weak. His mind, mechanics and sense of wish fulfillment are all up in smoke. Maybe I'll eat my words but I don't think so.[/quote']It took them a few years to build him into an effective setup guy. I am not confident that they can rebuild him in a few weeks.

[seabeachfred]

Hey Fred' date=' did you enjoy Chicago? At least they won two of three games that weekend, although it wasn't pretty. I was thinking about you during the Sunday night game, because we played so stupidly and sloppily. I figured that your head felt like exploding when we pulled a few of those rocks.[/quote']

 

Talk about winning ugly Ted----that series in Chicago took the cake. I enjoyed the city and went on a couple of tours and met some nice people, but the games really got to me. We were worthless in the first one and the mound rodent gave the g ame away in the first inning with his damn nibbling, though we didn't hit worth a damn either.

 

We were sitting in the apartment seats on Saturday and I predicted and saw Jon Sh@tbag Lester unravel with my own eyes. One on and one out and a 1-2 count on the batter, no problem right? Well not exactly!!!! The umpire gave what Lester thought was a bad call on the next pitch and I shouted to everyone to hear......HE WILL WALK THIS BATTER AND THE NEXT GUY WILL HIT A DOUBLE. Wrong!!!! He walked the batter and the ne xt guy his a three run homer. You never heard so many expletives explode from anyone's mouth like those that came from mine. I excused myself and went to an isolated part of the apartment where no one else was and watch the rest of the game there.

 

Sunday? Team pet McDonald plays a single into a triple, loses a fly in the light and crashes with Pedroia, Youkilis boots an easy grounder to open the sixth and Pedey and

Aviles crash into each other coverning second. We actually won those last two games?????

 

Ted, my neighbor warned my when I got back from my first baseball tour in 2000 NOT TO BECOME A RED SOX FAN. They would make you sick. Ironically I caught a cough in Chicago and wondered if some of the slimy vibes enamating from the RedSox's sloppy play actually got into my system. Thanks for asking though.

[example1]

It took them a few years to build him into an effective setup guy. I am not confident that they can rebuild him in a few weeks.

 

Who said anything about a few weeks? He could come back as a stellar setup guy next season and it would be okay. They have this guy for a few years.

[Rdsxmbnt]

It took them a few years to build him into an effective setup guy. I am not confident that they can rebuild him in a few weeks.

 

Not true, since he got here in 2009, as a MR he really has never had any huge struggles and was a top guy pretty much from the get go.

 

As far as his initial transition from starting to MR, his success did basically happen overnight.

 

Line as a SP in the minors (07): 75 IP, 78 BB, 47 K, 7.08 ERA

Line as a MR in the minors (08): 77.2 IP, 30 BB, 107 K, 1.51 ERA

[a700hitter]

Who said anything about a few weeks? He could come back as a stellar setup guy next season and it would be okay. They have this guy for a few years.

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. IMO, this experiment likely ruined him for 2012.

[a700hitter]

Not true, since he got here in 2009, as a MR he really has never had any huge struggles and was a top guy pretty much from the get go.

 

As far as his initial transition from starting to MR, his success did basically happen overnight.

 

Line as a SP in the minors (07): 75 IP, 78 BB, 47 K, 7.08 ERA

Line as a MR in the minors (08): 77.2 IP, 30 BB, 107 K, 1.51 ERA

He was drafted in 2006. There are no 2006 stats for him, because my recollection is that they couldn't promote him from the instructional league in 2006. This kid was a project. It took 2 1/2 years to get him major league ready. They didn't just hand him the ball in the late innings and a reliever was born. They broke the guy down and rebuilt him. It took time. Unlearning and relearning muscle memory at this level takes time.

[Rdsxmbnt]

He was drafted in 2006. There are no 2006 stats for him' date=' because my recollection is that they couldn't promote him from the instructional league in 2006. This kid was a project. It took 2 1/2 years to get him major league ready. They didn't just hand him the ball in the late innings and a reliever was born. They broke the guy down and rebuilt him. It took time. Unlearning and relearning muscle memory at this level takes time.[/quote']

 

He was drafted in June 2006 but was a last minute signing and didn't actually sign with the team till September 4th when the minor leagues are effectively over.

 

He was a project as a SP, but as a MR he literally flew through the system. He made his debut as a MR in the winter leagues of 08, made his A ball MR debut in April 08 and was in the majors only a year later at the beginning of May.

 

As a MR he was by no means a project since he already had two dominant pitches, and absolutely he was handed a high-leverage role extremely early into his rookie season of 09.

[example1]

He was drafted in 2006. There are no 2006 stats for him' date=' because my recollection is that [u']they couldn't promote[/u] him from the instructional league in 2006. This kid was a project. It took 2 1/2 years to get him major league ready. They didn't just hand him the ball in the late innings and a reliever was born. They broke the guy down and rebuilt him. It took time. Unlearning and relearning muscle memory at this level takes time.

 

This is an instance where, rather than saying "they had to rebuild him" you could actually give the development/scouting team some credit and say "they were able to make him one of the best relief pitchers in the league". I don't see this as a random incident, I see it as being related to their actual ability to make him better. If they did it once, they can do it again. This is a guy with 252 IP in the bigs, an ERA in the low 3's, and a WHIP under 1.2. Oh yeah, he's also only 27. There isn't a single reason to give up on him.

[jung]

Well if there is one thing that should be considered done and done as far as Bard and his performances on the mound are concerned it is that we can say with complete confidence that he is a much better pitcher when he can just throw. He does not do well having to think his way through games from the mound. That is not to say he is a dunce or anything like that. He is simply not well suited to the mindset of a ML starter.

[a700hitter]

This is an instance where' date=' rather than saying "they had to rebuild him" you could actually give the development/scouting team some credit and say "they were able to make him one of the best relief pitchers in the league". I don't see this as a random incident, I see it as being related to their actual ability to make him better. If they did it once, they can do it again. This is a guy with 252 IP in the bigs, an ERA in the low 3's, and a WHIP under 1.2. Oh yeah, he's also only 27. There isn't a single reason to give up on him.[/quote']Are the people that built him initially still in the system? I'm not giving up on him at all. I just expect that it will take time. As long as he is healthy, he can make it back. The question is when.

[jung]

I think Bard can get back to his relief role. I just never have viewed him as a very adaptable guy. It might take some time and he has to get his pitching motion back in order as well. Last we saw of him he had no idea where the ball was going. I am sure that is just not a couple weeks work at this point.

 

Might be end of this season at best before we see him again and more likely next season.

[seabeachfred]

I came on pretty strong earlier with my missive that Bard was through and done, finished, etc. It was only opinion, and truth be told, I hope I am as wrong as I could be. It ju st brings back some searing memories about Craig Hanson and Cla Meredith and how those two prospects were set adrift with their mishandling. Of course, Bard could make a comeback next year, but I wonder what's going on in his head. Say what you will about the physical aspects of baseball, but this is also a mind game as well. You get screwed up in the head and you're bailing water out of the boat from then on.

[example1]

Here we go with Craig Hanson again...

 

Cla Meridith was only mishandled in that the Sox traded him without giving him much of a shot, for Doug Mirabelli, only to see him dominate for a very short period before returning to earth. A completely different situation IMO.

[FredLynn]

This is what Youkilis said about not being in the lineup:

 

"I'm a paid employee here," Youkilis said. "When you're a paid employee and your boss tells you to do something, you do it. Until they tell me something, I'm here to play for the Red Sox."

 

Kudos to Kevin Youkilis for having a good attitude about reporting lines in any organization.

[SoxSport]

Here we go with Craig Hanson again...

 

Cla Meridith was only mishandled in that the Sox traded him without giving him much of a shot, for Doug Mirabelli, only to see him dominate for a very short period before returning to earth. A completely different situation IMO.

 

Meredith was mishandled by Tito. He brought him in with the bases loaded in the 9th inning of a tie game--for his first major league appearance just up from AA. One of Tito's "hunches" that didn't pan out.

[Cocos Disciples]

Meredith was mishandled by Tito. He brought him in with the bases loaded in the 9th inning of a tie game--for his first major league appearance just up from AA. One of Tito's "hunches" that didn't pan out.

 

He actually brought him in with a runner on 2nd, 2 out in the 7th in a tied game. Not nearly as bad, but still high pressure. Meredith walked two guys then gave up the grand slam.

 

He was called up early and not handled well, but it was also only 2 1/3 IP.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Nobody ruined Meredith. He was a fringe MR who benefited from pitching in the NL and in the ultimate pitchers park.

[Bellhorn04]

I think a guy who could help Bard is Varitek. Bard had amazing success throwing to Varitek.

 

Career IP ERA OPS K BB K/BB

Varitek 80.1 1.79 0.523 95 20 4.75

Salty 75.1 4.66 0.690 64 45 1.42

Vmart 51.1 3.16 0.669 51 23 2.22

2011

Varitek 31.1 1.44 0.472 33 5 6.60

Salty 39.2 4.54 0.579 40 19 2.11

[SCM33]

Nobody ruined Meredith. He was a fringe MR who benefited from pitching in the NL and in the ultimate pitchers park.

 

Yes.

[mvp 78]

Nobody ruined Meredith. He was a fringe MR who benefited from pitching in the NL and in the ultimate pitchers park.

 

But but but this goes against the narrative!

[Bellhorn04]

But but but this goes against the narrative!

 

Ha ha, look, this FO ruins everything it touches, and as for Bard, as you can see in Fred's post above, he, Elk, Pumpsie, Muggah and Brennan called this.

[mvp 78]

All this time off will kill WMB's confidence! Nope.

[mvp 78]

This bullpen sucks! Nope.

[SoxSport]

He actually brought him in with a runner on 2nd, 2 out in the 7th in a tied game. Not nearly as bad, but still high pressure. Meredith walked two guys then gave up the grand slam.

 

He was called up early and not handled well, but it was also only 2 1/3 IP.

 

That sounds like what it was. It was a bad deal for him, and he never recovered until he was traded. I don't think Tito was very good with young players.

[SoxSport]

Ha ha' date=' look, this FO ruins everything it touches, and as for Bard, as you can see in Fred's post above, he, Elk, Pumpsie, Muggah and Brennan called this.[/quote']

 

I have a sense that they don't do the pitching right. They don't get enough innings out of their starters, for one. Even in a quality start, they take their starters out an inning too soon.

That puts pressure on the BP, which can't succeed every time out.

[Bellhorn04]

That sounds like what it was. It was a bad deal for him' date=' and he never recovered until he was traded. I don't think Tito was very good with young players.[/quote']

 

Tito was good with plenty of young players.

[SoxSport]

All this time off will kill WMB's confidence! Nope.

 

Confidence is about 50% of performance in sports. You have to handle the kids right.