Updates on ex-Sox players etc.

[a700hitter]

Newsflash: The Red Sox suck too. Over the last 163 games, Boston has like the 4th or 5th worst record in baseball.

 

But more to the point: What does any of what you said have to do with the list of former Red Sox prospects that are doing well in the majors?

I don't think any of them would have helped us this season. It's a list of players that we traded to s***** teams that are by and large still s***** and they wouldn't have helped the 2012 team much at all. We've only been s***** for a full season and it's panic time in Boston.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kalish is the best player on a playoff contender

[Orange Juiced]

I don't think any of them would have helped us this season. It's a list of players that we traded to s***** teams that are by and large still s***** and they wouldn't have helped the 2012 team much at all. We've only been s***** for a full season and it's panic time in Boston.

 

Heh. Well, who knows. I mean, you can't just plug one player's stats into another team because we have no idea, for example, if Reddick would have been producing like this if he was here in Boston. No idea at all. But just for fun, let's play the "replace Red Sox player A with former Red Sox prospect B" game.

 

Let's start in RF. Replace the Red Sox' RF production with Reddick.

Sox: 501 ab, 75 r, 15 hr, 72 rbi, .269/.330/.449/.779

Reddick: 493 ab, 72 r, 28 hr, 73 rbi, .260/.326/.501/.827

*Conclusion: Solid upgrade.

 

Now let's move to LF. Replace the Sox' LF production with a combo of Moss and Murphy (they total about the same number of AB as the Red Sox' LFs have).

Sox: 501 ab, 80 r, 12 hr, 65 rbi, .273/.342/.425/.767

Moss: 181 ab, 29 r, 15 hr, 34 rbi, .254/.322/.552/.874

Murphy: 353 ab, 53 r, 12 hr, 51 rbi, .317/.395/.501/.896

*Conclusion: Sizeable upgrade.

 

How about SS? Replace the Sox' SS production with Jed Lowrie.

Sox: 523 ab, 60 r, 13 hr, 66 rbi, .258/.288/.392/.679

Lowrie: 285 ab, 38 r, 14 hr, 36 rbi, .253/.343/.456/.799

*Conclusion: Depending on who fills in the rest of the AB, potential upgrade

 

So the offense would be upgraded, on the whole, by a pretty good amount. But it's the pitching that really would do wonders. Let's replace Bard/Cook/Doubront/Matsuzaka with Masterson/Sanchez.

 

Bard: 13 g, 57.0 ip, 5.37 era, 1.63 whip

Cook: 13 g, 70.2 ip, 5.35 era, 1.36 whip

Doubront: 24 g, 130.2 ip, 5.03 era, 1.50 whip

Matsuzaka: 6 g, 30.0 ip, 5.10 era, 1.27 whip

TOT: 56 g, 288.1 ip, about a 5.20 era, about a 1.40 whip

 

Masterson: 28 g, 172.1 ip, 4.91 era, 1.45 whip

Sanchez: 25 g, 155.0 ip, 4.24 era, 1.35 whip

TOT: 53 g, 327.1 ip, about a 4.60 era, about a 1.40 whip

 

So given the increased # of innings per game, and reduced era by about a half-run, these changes could have made a significant difference.

 

Ah, but whatever. This is just fun speculating, obviously. Here's what it makes me really consider though, on a serious note: I would love to see the Sox groom their young talent and let them play. I'd love to see a future lineup of:

 

C - Lavarnway

1b - not sure we have a young stud 1b in the pipeline

2b - Pedroia

3b - Middlebrooks

SS - Bogaerts

OF - Bradley, Brentz, Jacobs (I'm assuming they trade Jacoby or that he signs elsewhere)

SP - Lester, Buchholz, DeLaRosa, Webster, Barnes

RP - Workman, Britton, Owens, Bard (hopefully back to his good self), Pimentel, etc.

 

I'd be very excited about a team that looked like that. Hopefully the prospects pan out.

[a700hitter]

Heh. Well, who knows. I mean, you can't just plug one player's stats into another team because we have no idea, for example, if Reddick would have been producing like this if he was here in Boston. No idea at all. But just for fun, let's play the "replace Red Sox player A with former Red Sox prospect B" game.

 

Let's start in RF. Replace the Red Sox' RF production with Reddick.

Sox: 501 ab, 75 r, 15 hr, 72 rbi, .269/.330/.449/.779

Reddick: 493 ab, 72 r, 28 hr, 73 rbi, .260/.326/.501/.827

*Conclusion: Solid upgrade.

 

Now let's move to LF. Replace the Sox' LF production with a combo of Moss and Murphy (they total about the same number of AB as the Red Sox' LFs have).

Sox: 501 ab, 80 r, 12 hr, 65 rbi, .273/.342/.425/.767

Moss: 181 ab, 29 r, 15 hr, 34 rbi, .254/.322/.552/.874

Murphy: 353 ab, 53 r, 12 hr, 51 rbi, .317/.395/.501/.896

*Conclusion: Sizeable upgrade.

 

How about SS? Replace the Sox' SS production with Jed Lowrie.

Sox: 523 ab, 60 r, 13 hr, 66 rbi, .258/.288/.392/.679

Lowrie: 285 ab, 38 r, 14 hr, 36 rbi, .253/.343/.456/.799

*Conclusion: Depending on who fills in the rest of the AB, potential upgrade

 

So the offense would be upgraded, on the whole, by a pretty good amount. But it's the pitching that really would do wonders. Let's replace Bard/Cook/Doubront/Matsuzaka with Masterson/Sanchez.

 

Bard: 13 g, 57.0 ip, 5.37 era, 1.63 whip

Cook: 13 g, 70.2 ip, 5.35 era, 1.36 whip

Doubront: 24 g, 130.2 ip, 5.03 era, 1.50 whip

Matsuzaka: 6 g, 30.0 ip, 5.10 era, 1.27 whip

TOT: 56 g, 288.1 ip, about a 5.20 era, about a 1.40 whip

 

Masterson: 28 g, 172.1 ip, 4.91 era, 1.45 whip

Sanchez: 25 g, 155.0 ip, 4.24 era, 1.35 whip

TOT: 53 g, 327.1 ip, about a 4.60 era, about a 1.40 whip

 

So given the increased # of innings per game, and reduced era by about a half-run, these changes could have made a significant difference.

 

Ah, but whatever. This is just fun speculating, obviously. Here's what it makes me really consider though, on a serious note: I would love to see the Sox groom their young talent and let them play. I'd love to see a future lineup of:

 

C - Lavarnway

1b - not sure we have a young stud 1b in the pipeline

2b - Pedroia

3b - Middlebrooks

SS - Bogaerts

OF - Bradley, Brentz, Jacobs (I'm assuming they trade Jacoby or that he signs elsewhere)

SP - Lester, Buchholz, DeLaRosa, Webster, Barnes

RP - Workman, Britton, Owens, Bard (hopefully back to his good self), Pimentel, etc.

 

I'd be very excited about a team that looked like that. Hopefully the prospects pan out.

What year could a lineup like this take shape in a way that they are all producing solidly at the MLB level? Not all of these guys will work out. Most probably will not. Those that do work out will develop at very different rates. A lineup like this is a real long shot, and we would be perennial losers while waiting for it.

[Bellhorn04]

Gonzo with the 2-run double in the 9th to lift the Dodgers to a 5-4 walkoff win.

[DwightFright]

Beckett with the 2-1 win last night w/ 9K.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Papelbon got his ass lit up against the Braves.

[a700hitter]

Papelbon got his ass lit up against the Braves.

I long for the days when Tito handed Papelbon in the 9th inning.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Agreed. I'd give my right arm...well, no, actually, I'd give someone else's right arm for Papelbon back in a Sox uniform.

[youmetaxidermy]

Agreed. I'd give my right arm...well, no, actually, I'd give someone else's right arm for Papelbon back in a Sox uniform.

 

Yeah, with the state our team is in, a closer would definitely change everything around. :papelbon:

[rhfil]

Who's hot, but especially who's not?

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[SCM33]

Agreed. I'd give my right arm...well, no, actually, I'd give someone else's right arm for Papelbon back in a Sox uniform.

 

NONONONO!!!!!

 

He was overpaidddd remember!!!

 

Overpaid, meanwhile we still have Lackey on the roster who has yet to contribute. Yeah that makes sense!

[jung]

I am so sick of seeing those camera shots of Lackey's big ugly mug hanging over the dugout railing, a useless lump.

 

Maybe our reward for enduring his endless insistence on traveling with the team to do nothing apparently but lumber up to the clubhouse buffet to fill his face and guzzle a few post game beers will be an actual pitcher again some day. Leave him home and feed some poor homeless dude each game.

 

Maybe he will come back and be fantastic. Lately the Sox simply don't seem to have that sort of break headed their way but maybe.....just maybe

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

NONONONO!!!!!

 

He was overpaidddd remember!!!

 

Overpaid, meanwhile we still have Lackey on the roster who has yet to contribute. Yeah that makes sense!

 

So you don't think he was overpaid?

[a700hitter]

So you don't think he was overpaid?

All of our current players are a good value. How do you like this team?

[jung]

You don't have to have the costliest team in baseball to have the best team in baseball or at least one of the best. If that lesson has not been learned across ML baseball this year I don't know what to think anymore.

 

I am not sure the Yankees will not be out of it or bumped in the first round even if they do get in.

 

I think there is something inherently wrong with having one of the costliest teams such that I think one could make the case that it is not even an effective way to run a franchise if winning is the goal. Expensive tends to imply something about age I think, such that if you have one of the costliest teams you may likely have one of the oldest teams as well. A costly team implies big contracts with players feeling entitled to do things their way and once you get there, having everybody pulling on the oars together could be a matter of luck as much as anything else.

 

It takes a mix which I think we have discussed here before and once the mix gets unbalanced the way it had here in Boston, good luck to us. What we have at this point is not really a team either in that four players out of 25 regular players that were playing are now gone. That is almost 20% of the team completely gone. The guys that are left are just that....the guys that are left. Can't look at the record these guys are producing and say, well the trade is a failure. The trade was not intended to improve their winning percentage this year anyway. Frankly I doubt they would be playing a lick better right now with those four guys.

 

In part my concern with bringing in a new manager at this point is that I am already hearing unreal expectations for the guys that are left as they play out this year and I don't want that expectation laid onto a new manager either.

 

This season is just dead....game results are meaningless at this point. What we learn about some of the players that we might decide to depend on next year is all that there is left to do.

 

As for V, as much as I don't like what Aceves has done there is no excuse for pitching him 147 pitches in four days. V stretching him out is ********. This is V punishing Aceves and regardless of what Aceves did he is still a Red Sox asset. V does not have the right to abuse that asset just to satisfy some vindictive streak in him.

[jung]

You don't have to have the costliest team in baseball to have the best team in baseball or at least one of the best. If that lesson has not been learned across ML baseball this year I don't know what to think anymore.

 

I am not sure the Yankees will not be out of it or bumped in the first round even if they do get in.

 

I think there is something inherently wrong with having one of the costliest teams such that I think one could make the case that it is not even an effective way to run a franchise if winning is the goal. Expensive tends to imply something about age I think, such that if you have one of the costliest teams you may likely have one of the oldest teams as well. A costly team implies big contracts with players feeling entitled to do things their way and once you get there, having everybody pulling on the oars together could be a matter of luck as much as anything else.

 

It takes a mix which I think we have discussed here before and once the mix gets unbalanced the way it had here in Boston, good luck to us. What we have at this point is not really a team either in that four players out of 25 regular players that were playing are now gone. That is almost 20% of the team completely gone. The guys that are left are just that....the guys that are left. Can't look at the record these guys are producing and say, well the trade is a failure. The trade was not intended to improve their winning percentage this year anyway. Frankly I doubt they would be playing a lick better right now with those four guys.

 

In part my concern with bringing in a new manager at this point is that I am already hearing unreal expectations for the guys that are left as they play out this year and I don't want that expectation laid onto a new manager either.

 

This season is just dead....game results are meaningless at this point. What we learn about some of the players that we might decide to depend on next year is all that there is left to do.

 

As for V, as much as I don't like what Aceves has done there is no excuse for pitching him 147 pitches in four days. V stretching him out is ********. This is V punishing Aceves and regardless of what Aceves did he is still a Red Sox asset. V does not have the right to abuse that asset just to satisfy some vindictive streak in him.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

All of our current players are a good value. How do you like this team?

 

Not saying I wouldn't want Papelbon. My question was he overpaid and he damn sure was. 50 million for 4 years is ridiculous. How do you like the Phillies team?

 

Edit: And his numbers aren't even all that this year. Oh please, lets all praise this guy and act like if he was here that this team would be in playoff contention. The starting rotation wouldn't even give him a chance to save us.

[Palodios]

NONONONO!!!!!

 

He was overpaidddd remember!!!

 

Overpaid, meanwhile we still have Lackey on the roster who has yet to contribute. Yeah that makes sense!

 

After everything that this team has been through, are we really still arguing that Papelbon wasn't paid too much? There has not been anything elite about Papelbon since 2009. I know everyone likes to have these great big illusions of grandeur about Pap, but it isn't 2007 anymore.

 

He has been a mid-tier closer that is getting paid more than a guy named Rivera. It was a terrible contract that he hasn't even earned on the first year, and it will only get worse.

[Orange Juiced]

Gonzo this year:

 

- with Boston: .300/.343/.469/.812, 114 ops+

- with L.A.D.: .260/.321/.380/.701, 94 ops+

[Laser Show]

Gonzo this year:

 

- with Boston: .300/.343/.469/.812, 114 ops+

- with L.A.D.: .260/.321/.380/.701, 94 ops+

 

SSS

 

He only had a .697 OPS thru 24 games this year. Give him time, he'll end up being worth what they're paying.

[Orange Juiced]

It was just an update, that's all.

[Bellhorn04]

After everything that this team has been through, are we really still arguing that Papelbon wasn't paid too much? There has not been anything elite about Papelbon since 2009. I know everyone likes to have these great big illusions of grandeur about Pap, but it isn't 2007 anymore.

 

He has been a mid-tier closer that is getting paid more than a guy named Rivera. It was a terrible contract that he hasn't even earned on the first year, and it will only get worse.

 

I'm not terribly upset that Paps is gone, but mid-tier? I have to object to that. He's 31 of 35 in saves, which is bang on his career average. His WHIP is almost identical to his career average. His K/BB is a little better than his career average. And as always for the last 6 years, he's been perfectly healthy.

 

Who exactly, besides Rivera, are you rating above Papelbon, and by what statistical measures?

[Orange Juiced]

Papelbon is a great closer. I'm glad, though, that the Sox aren't paying that contract. Bailey is a very, very good closer as well and he's going to make a lot less than Paps is. Bailey as the closer next year, Aceves and, yes, Bard, as the 7-8 inning guys, and guys like Miller/Hill/Tazawa fill in the blanks. Bullpen will be fine next year. Spend the money on starting pitching and a bat.

[Palodios]

I'm not terribly upset that Paps is gone, but mid-tier? I have to object to that. He's 31 of 35 in saves, which is bang on his career average. His WHIP is almost identical to his career average. His K/BB is a little better than his career average. And as always for the last 6 years, he's been perfectly healthy.

 

Who exactly, besides Rivera, are you rating above Papelbon, and by what statistical measures?

 

If you told me he was in the same class as Kimbral, Chapman, or Rivera, I'd laugh pretty hard.

 

Among major league relievers, He's 67th in ERA, 35th in WHIP, 27th in WAR, his FIP in the mid 20s, and has more losses than all but 8 of the 140 qualified major league relievers. Seriously guys, this shouldn't even be a discussion.

[mvp 78]

If you told me he was in the same class as Kimbral, Chapman, or Rivera, I'd laugh pretty e hard.

 

Among major league relievers, He's 67th in ERA, 35th in WHIP, 27th in WAR, his FIP in the mid 20s, and has more losses than all but 8 of the 140 qualified major league relievers. Seriously guys, this shouldn't even be a discussion.

 

But he came out to Dropkick Murphy's!!! Totally worth a bloated contract!

[a700hitter]

After everything that this team has been through, are we really still arguing that Papelbon wasn't paid too much? There has not been anything elite about Papelbon since 2009. I know everyone likes to have these great big illusions of grandeur about Pap, but it isn't 2007 anymore.

 

He has been a mid-tier closer that is getting paid more than a guy named Rivera. It was a terrible contract that he hasn't even earned on the first year, and it will only get worse.

Is anyone arguing that he is not over-paid?

 

[a700hitter]

If you told me he was in the same class as Kimbral, Chapman, or Rivera, I'd laugh pretty hard.

 

Among major league relievers, He's 67th in ERA, 35th in WHIP, 27th in WAR, his FIP in the mid 20s, and has more losses than all but 8 of the 140 qualified major league relievers. Seriously guys, this shouldn't even be a discussion.

When Kimbrel and Chapman do it for 6 or 7 years get back to me. Mo was great, but he is done now. Papelbon maybe the steadiest and most reliable closer out there now that Mo has gone to the glue factory.

[a700hitter]

As for overpaying players, the FO is going to realize in the off season that after a total fiasco like this season, they will have to overpay top talent to get them to come to Boston. The whole Boston scene is toxic right now and players will want a premium to subject themselves to it. We moan and cry about not being able to spend with the Yankees, but the truth is that they will be able to sign guys for less than Boston will be willing to pay, The Yankees are a top shelf professional organization. Boston is a 3 ring circus right now.

[jung]

Not sure where to post this but I think MLB Network is going offer up Yanks and O's as the national telecast game tonight for those that can get it.