Bard to Rotation a Mistake?

[User Name]

"Bard would have been fine either starting or closing" but when given a chance, lobbied for starting until they gave him a chance.

 

"FO's hands were not tied behind their backs when making the Bard decision" but it filled a need and he was lobbying for it.

 

"It ended up being a mistake" yes, but hindsight is 20/20.

 

Those are pretty much the main points to the Bard argument.

[User Name]

I think your recollection is correct.

 

Obviously correct, even though when given the choice Bard clearly and unequivocally lobbied to start.

 

The talksox special: Let's ignore the facts.

[a700hitter]

Obviously correct, even though when given the choice Bard clearly and unequivocally lobbied to start.

 

The talksox special: Let's ignore the facts.

You are changing the facts. No one disputes that Bard lobbied to start. So did Aceves. Cherington made the decision to let them compete for a job in ST. Aceves had the inside line on the job until the end of ST when Bailey got a boo boo and Aceves was asked to close. Dems the facts.

[iortiz]

Since when a player under control takes decisions over the FO's interests?

 

I'm with SFF on this. FO made the call, not Bard. With this, I'm not saying that Bard didn't want to start, but the move was made because FO wanted that way, not the other way.

[Dojji]

Did he prefer to start? Sure. But don't act like Bard had Cherrington and the FO's nuts in a grinder telling them he starts or he turns into a diva.

 

I disagree. The team's nuts were in the proverbial grinder because of Lackey's and Matsuzaka's inability to get it done everyday in the starting rotation. They NEEDED another starter and were already paying about 6 people major league starting pitching money. As it was they had to ride Doubront too hard.

 

Also I still maintain my overall opinion of the situation: I think Bard was fried in September of 2011 and everything that happened in 2012 was the last gasp, nothing more.

[User Name]

Since when a player under control takes decisions over the FO's interests?

 

I'm with SFF on this. FO made the call, not Bard. With this, I'm not saying that Bard didn't want to start, but the move was made because FO wanted that way, not the other way.

 

I disagree. The team's nuts were in the proverbial grinder because of Lackey's and Matsuzaka's inability to get it done everyday in the starting rotation. They NEEDED another starter and were already paying about 6 people major league starting pitching money. As it was they had to ride Doubront too hard.

 

Also I still maintain my overall opinion of the situation: I think Bard was fried in September of 2011 and everything that happened in 2012 was the last gasp, nothing more.

 

 

This. Just add Bard's desire to start and you've got the concoction that lead to his tour in the rotation.

[a700hitter]

This. Just add Bard's desire to start and you've got the concoction that lead to his tour in the rotation.

You and Doji are wrong. Did we need another starter? Yes. Did it have to be Bard? Absolutely, not. That was Cherrington's call. Surely there were other options than a guy who had zero success as a starter beyond college and who became a headcase and almost a lost cause trying to start in the lower minors. Cherrington is the GM. People don't compete to be a starter on some sign up sheet or just because they want to.

[iortiz]

You and Doji are wrong. Did we need another starter? Yes. Did it have to be Bard? Absolutely, not. That was Cherrington's call. Surely there were other options than a guy who had zero success as a starter beyond college and who became a headcase and almost a lost cause trying to start in the lower minors. Cherrington is the GM. People don't compete to be a starter on some sign up sheet or just because they want to.

 

This is why I always blamed FO. BC arguably had the best bundle for the last two innings in the majors and screwed the career of one and let walk the other.

[Dojji]

You and Doji are wrong. Did we need another starter? Yes. Did it have to be Bard? Absolutely, not. That was Cherrington's call. Surely there were other options than a guy who had zero success as a starter beyond college and who became a headcase and almost a lost cause trying to start in the lower minors. Cherrington is the GM. People don't compete to be a starter on some sign up sheet or just because they want to.

 

Yes there were other options. The problem is WE WERE ALREADY USING THEM. Guys like Doubront, Morales and Cook were supposed to be that buffer. Because Daisuke and Lackey were both nonoptions that buffer did not exist because we had to use those people at the big league level.

 

Beyond that who was there? Ranaudo made himself a nonoption, Barnes was too green, and quite frankly, the quality of our Pawtucket rotation was rather too mediocre to abandon the Bard experiment in favor of. At least the Bard experiment had SOME upside.

[a700hitter]

Yes there were other options. The problem is WE WERE ALREADY USING THEM. Guys like Doubront, Morales and Cook were supposed to be that buffer. Because Daisuke and Lackey were both nonoptions that buffer did not exist because we had to use those people at the big league level.

 

Beyond that who was there? Ranaudo made himself a nonoption, Barnes was too green, and quite frankly, the quality of our Pawtucket rotation was rather too mediocre to abandon the Bard experiment in favor of. At least the Bard experiment had SOME upside.

And those were the whole universe of options? Check the transaction list for that off season. Lot's of other pitchers changed teams. Bottom line is that it was Cherington's choice to give Bard a chance to start. He had no gun to his head and his balls were not in a vice. He made a very poor decision. You are making lots of excuses and rationalizations.

[SoxSport]

Cherington was a rookie GM who was told to hold the line in spending. He moved Bard to starter so he wouldn't have to spend money on a FA starter, and traded for Bailey to close. Bard was apparently agreeable (you can't be sure on these things--we don't have enough info), even though he had failed as a starter in the minors. The latter should have been a flag. And Bailey got his yearly injury (keep your fingers crossed.)

 

Prior to this season, Red Sox FO undervalued the bullpen, especially the closer. They moved one of the best setup men in baseball, and have refused to pay big bucks to a closer. Pap, for example. Actually, I think they're correct on this. Closers are replaceable. Right now they have two. If Farrell is smart, he'll use them both and keep them fresh. The bullpen looks pretty good right now.

[Dojji]

And those were the whole universe of options? Check the transaction list for that off season. Lot's of other pitchers changed teams. Bottom line is that it was Cherington's choice to give Bard a chance to start. He had no gun to his head and his balls were not in a vice. He made a very poor decision. You are making lots of excuses and rationalizations.

 

Boston was already paying 6 starting pitchers and we know for a fact that they were nervous about the luxury cap. That trims 99% of your options right off the top. What we could have scooped off the waiver were were guys like Aaron Cook and Cook was not part of the solution.

 

There comes a time when you have to weigh your real options, not the ones you wish you had.

 

Understand that I predicate my position on my strong belief that Bard was cooked for all intents and purposes in September of 2011. Since we have no way of knowing one way or the other what Bard would have done in the pen coming off one of the worst months a Red Sox releiver ever had that year, people who take refuge in an assumption that Bard would have been healfht and effective as our closer, or even as a member of our bullpen, in 2012 aren't nearly as justified as they believe they are.

[a700hitter]

Boston was already paying 6 starting pitchers and we know for a fact that they were nervous about the luxury cap. That trims 99% of your options right off the top. What we could have scooped off the waiver were were guys like Aaron Cook and Cook was not part of the solution.

 

There comes a time when you have to weigh your real options, not the ones you wish you had.

 

Understand that I predicate my position on my strong belief that Bard was cooked for all intents and purposes in September of 2011. Since we have no way of knowing one way or the other what Bard would have done in the pen coming off one of the worst months a Red Sox releiver ever had that year, people who take refuge in an assumption that Bard would have been healfht and effective as our closer, or even as a member of our bullpen, in 2012 aren't nearly as justified as they believe they are.

So, you are rationalizing that a series of bad decisions left ben with no better choice? Did anyone have responsibility for the series of bad decisions leaving Ben in that predicament?

[mvp 78]

Bard was toast before becoming a starter. Anyone remember September 2011? Bard couldn't hack it as a closer and struggled mightily when the pressure was on.

 

Blame Bard more than anyone else.

 

It's the player's responsibility to perform, first and foremost.

[Dojji]

Considering how few of those decisions were Cherington's? Sure, why not?

[a700hitter]

Considering how few of those decisions were Cherington's? Sure, why not?

Please elaborate. I don't know what you are saying here or what you are answering.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Obviously correct, even though when given the choice Bard clearly and unequivocally lobbied to start.

 

The talksox special: Let's ignore the facts.

 

You act as if developing a starting pitcher is not insanely more valuable to an organization than developing a closer.

[seabeachfred]

I disagree. The team's nuts were in the proverbial grinder because of Lackey's and Matsuzaka's inability to get it done everyday in the starting rotation. They NEEDED another starter and were already paying about 6 people major league starting pitching money. As it was they had to ride Doubront too hard.

 

Also I still maintain my overall opinion of the situation: I think Bard was fried in September of 2011 and everything that happened in 2012 was the last gasp, nothing more.

 

Doj, we are in total harmony on this point. I mentioned a few days ago that Bard's problems began in September of 2011 when he went totally South and became little more than a human pinata on the mound. Yes, Ben takes some of the brunt for making Bard a starting pitcher but Bard was lobbying like hell for it from what I've learned. Besides, even such a conversion shouldn't have resulted in the pitcher's total collapse on the mound---and that is exactly what happened. Bard failed as a starter, then failed as a reliever, then when sent down to the minors failed again. And he is still a basket case. Isn't it possible when weighing all these things that maybe Daniel didn't have the guts, toughness or staying power to get his s*** back together?

[seabeachfred]

This is why I always blamed FO. BC arguably had the best bundle for the last two innings in the majors and screwed the career of one and let walk the other.

 

rortiz, rarely have I disagreed with your or 700hitter on this board, but this time I have to take a different take on things. Right both of you are on Cherington making this decision, but we have to keep in mind that Bard wanted this. But put all this aside, the blame game, how the hell could a pitcher so completely go to hell the way Bard did. Rarely have I ever heard of a conversion of a player or pitcher into a different position or role that resulted in such a total disintegration of that individual. You think Bard may just have been short in the courage or guts department to allow himself to completely rot. I think a pitcher of sterner stuff would have eventually braced himself and come back out swinging. Bard has done nothing of the sort. He is still a total mess.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I don't think it was ever the switch to the rotation that ruined Bard. The main thing is that the tools that made him successful are not there anymore. When he was averaging 97 mph on the fastball, and 84 mph on the slider he had two plus pitches and regardless of his command he was good enough to pitch one great inning at a time.

 

Now that he sits sub 94 mph on the fastball he just isn't going to have the same success without great command which he never had. It is very common for young pitchers to lose velocity, and the ones that continue to be great are the ones who have good command. Bard never developed that and I think it is too late, his best bet is being an average MR at this point.

[SoxSport]

Considering how few of those decisions were Cherington's? Sure, why not?

 

We don't really know what the decision ladder is--the media doesn't talk about it. Cherington being a young GM, you can be sure Lucchino is right over his shoulder. He doesn't breathe without a nod from Larry. Clearly, though, Henry has been stroking Ben, since the media got the word Ben gets the credit for the Dodger deal--though Henry actually made the deal with the Dodger President Kasten at the owner's meetings, as reported in some detail by the national media. I think, however, the FO deserves some credit for picking the prospects that came to Boston. It's pretty obvious a deal of that magnitude and money is made at the ownership level. As for trades and FA signings, Ben has some help in the FO this year (James et al); Lucchino and the higher ups probably sign off on any deals as well.

 

The real conflict traditionally is between the GM and the manager. Last year, clearly V had no say. Tito probably had little say as well. I suspect Farrell has a lot more say--he's highly thought of by the higher ups. The question is who has the final say in personnel, lineups, starting pitching, the way the BP is used, etc. These things are not discussed by the media.

[Dojji]

While all that is true, this was also still Theo's team in 2012 in many ways.

[a700hitter]

Since he has returned to Portland, he has continued to stink. He hasn't had a clean outing in any of his 3 outings and his WHIP is 4. Spread some jam on him. He's toast.

[Station 13]

He look like complete dog s*** last time with different arm slot, angle, release point for all the fastball.

[Behindenemylines]

Since he has returned to Portland, he has continued to stink. He hasn't had a clean outing in any of his 3 outings and his WHIP is 4. Spread some jam on him. He's toast.

 

Leave him in the minors and let him find himself. He needs to be able to get where he was when he was one of the top set up men in baseball. If he can't get it done in AA then he is no good to us. I think it has become a mental thing and he might never return to Boston.

[seabeachfred]

He look like complete dog s*** last time with different arm slot, angle, release point for all the fastball.

 

I suppose there might still be a few diehards who think there is some miracle awaiting when Bard comes back finally like new. It is fool's gold my friends. This guy is done, finis, nein, nyet, no mas!!!!!!! To me the tipoff is how he totally failed to make the adjustment back to the bullpen when his miserable trial as a starter went up in smoke. To me that spells a lack of touchness, a total inability to man up and move on. This is an extreme case of Craig Hansen (remember him?????). Bard is through!!!!!!!!!

[YAZMAN]

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/9624667/daniel-bard-designated-assignment-boston-red-sox

 

What a waste of a live arm.

[Dojji]

Agreed. Whatever happened to Bard, whosever fault it was, one thing is clear: that was a good pitcher before he went down the drain, and it's a real shame it happened so young.

 

Personally, I don't feel it's cut and dried enough to call this mismanagement instead of a tragedy. Others are going to disagree with me there, that's fine. I personally feel like if he ever really had the health, skill and mojo to be a longterm success in the majors, what happened to him in the last month of 2011 and the first half of 2012 shouldn't have been enough to derail it. Promising power pitchers move back and forth between the rotation and the pen all the time and come out smiling.

 

So it wouldn't be fair to call the rotation move a red herring, since damaging his arm and career was a known possible risk, but to say it was THE cause of what happened to Bard is also disingenuous. Something else happened there.

[sk7326]

It is a shame. I think what ended up happening is that he was a limited pitcher - it was why he did not cut it as a starter in the farm level. But his limitations did not matter when you become a 1-2 inning guy. That fastball-slider combo is plenty. In 2012, the transition he made personally to try to be a true starter - most notably the change in the heater - did not work. His fastball is plus as a reliever, good but nothing special as a starter. What will confound fans and scientists for years to come is how he could never recover the stuff when he went back to the bullpen - outside of a health problem, there was no reason for him to not be able to recapture his stuff. The command issues are one thing - but you could live with fringy command/control if the stuff was still restaurant quality and it no longer was. Being designated - it will be interesting if somebody picks him up ... I'd claim him, after all it costs nothing to kick the tires and see if he needs a change of scenery.

[dupree]

It definetly is a shame. Some team will take a chance on him and maybe a change of scenery is all he may need. One of the guys who i had hoped we coulda been talking bout next as a great comeback story. But i dont see that happening. Wish him the best.

 

Unless the Yankees claim him. And if they do i hope he sucks there too.