Red Sox Offense 2012

[mvp 78]

BSN07 you are a little sneaky. You pay up on our bet after most Red Sox fans want to kill CC. And you removed from your sig another bet that I was about to win' date=' because we are not going to have any farmhand make any impact on our team until 2013. I made that claim during last off season. BTW, I didn't consider Kalish a farmhand at that time as he had lost MLB rookie status. The way it looks now he will still not make an impact before 2013. Very sneaky, sneaking out that sig.[/quote']

 

Most Sox fans are ambivalent to CC.

[a700hitter]

Most Sox fans are ambivalent to CC.

At the end of last season, most fans seemed to have turned on him.

[FredLynn]

Apparently Pumpsie, the Red Sox front office is still enamored with their two sacred cows. Notice that no team has offered a contract to Wakefield? Yet the Red Sox are still holding out the possibility of welcoming back this slug with open arms. The guy can't pitch anymore. It took, what, ten starts before he got his 200th win? We could have used some of those games for wins which might have helped us more and Wakefield less. As for that other slug, Varitek, the Orioles and Mets both toyed with the idea of maybe offering him a contract and then said no. I mean, Lucchino and Cherington should know by now that enough is enough and finally and utterly cut loose of these two bums. They did their job but for the last four seasons Varitek has been a disaster after June and Wakefield hasn't been worth a damn since the middle of the 2009 season.

 

Unlike you, though, I would take a flier on Joe Saunders. For you to say that he is no better than Wakefield is very hard to imagine. Of course, the word is that he wants a three year, $27 million dollar contract and that means he won't be pitching in Boston. Doubrant? is another Bowden, Anderson, and Pimental----supposed prospects that have crapped out. I have no confidence in Doubrant whatsoever and that goes double for Tazawa.

 

Saunders had a good year last year pitching for the DBacks. But before last year he hadn't had an ERA under 4.25 since 2008. What does that translate into pitching in the ALE at Fenway? Wakefield also sucks, but is much cheaper. Both guys suck. Whether one sucks more than the other is a reasonable topic for debate; neither is a guy I would want on my team, even as a #4 SP (=Starting Pinata).

I expect Wakefield will be back, but not Varitek. I would prefer Garza to round out the rotation, but our FO isn't spending money this year.

[mvp 78]

At the end of last season' date=' most fans seemed to have turned on him.[/quote']

 

What's your sample size? Cranky wesy coast posters? WEEI callers? Frankly, I think most people don't give a crap about CC even when factoring the BV issue. Most fans seem more hopeful than anything else.

 

If most callers to sports radio callers/yahoos don't care about CC, why would the average fan?

 

It's just not reality.

[example1]

At the end of last season' date=' most fans seemed to have turned on him.[/quote']

 

For the record, I haven't turned on him.

[mvp 78]

Saunders had a good year last year pitching for the DBacks. But before last year he hadn't had an ERA under 4.25 since 2008. What does that translate into pitching in the ALE at Fenway? Wakefield also sucks, but is much cheaper. Both guys suck. Whether one sucks more than the other is a reasonable topic for debate; neither is a guy I would want on my team, even as a #4 SP (=Starting Pinata).

I expect Wakefield will be back, but not Varitek. I would prefer Garza to round out the rotation, but our FO isn't spending money this year.

 

With Garza, it's not about the money. They've said that the organizations with the pitching prospects they want in return are the Yanks and Jays. Fact is, the Sox just don't match up, unfortunately.

[a700hitter]

What's your sample size? Cranky wesy coast posters? WEEI callers? Frankly, I think most people don't give a crap about CC even when factoring the BV issue. Most fans seem more hopeful than anything else.

 

If most callers to sports radio callers/yahoos don't care about CC, why would the average fan?

 

It's just not reality.

Sample size? I'm not trying to take a scientific survey or predict one. I'm still a big CC fan, but I can't say that I have heard much positive about him from fans anywhere for some time. The message boards have been negative. Talk Radio has been negative. Fenway crowds at games I have attended have been negative. Everywhere that I encounter Sox fan I hear negativity. Is there a silent majority that likes him. I don't know and they really don't matter if they stay silent do they.

[mvp 78]

This message board is largely ambivalent to CC.

 

Talk radio is ambivalent to CC.

 

I'm just not seeing where you are getting "most fans" from. Most fans are mad at Beckett/Lackey and could care less about CC.

[Deebs]

Sample size? I'm not trying to take a scientific survey or predict one. I'm still a big CC fan' date=' but I can't say that I have heard much positive about him from fans anywhere for some time. The message boards have been negative. Talk Radio has been negative. Fenway crowds at games I have attended have been negative. Everywhere that I encounter Sox fan I hear negativity. Is there a silent majority that likes him. I don't know and they really don't matter if they stay silent do they.[/quote']

 

I like Crawford. I was never a fan of his contract, but I have nothing against him. He had a terrible year last year, but I am hopeful that he will have a much better 2012.

[jung]

I don't think fans generally have some kind of animosity toward Crawford. I think many fans believe the front office made a bad deal bringing him here but at least I don't think fans have taken that out on Crawford. In fact I think Crawford has so far gotten a complete pass from RS Nation for his poor performance to date. That might change this year if he continues to put up numbers suggestive of about a quarter of his current salary. At some point watching him ground out to SS is going to get old.

[jacksonianmarch]

Crawford got a pass because it was his first yr in Boston of many guaranteed yrs and he's a quiet hard worker. If he was outspoken or was eating chicken and beer while the season burned then they'd hate him

[a700hitter]

I don't think fans generally have some kind of animosity toward Crawford. I think many fans believe the front office made a bad deal bringing him here but at least I don't think fans have taken that out on Crawford. In fact I think Crawford has so far gotten a complete pass from RS Nation for his poor performance to date. That might change this year if he continues to put up numbers suggestive of about a quarter of his current salary. At some point watching him ground out to SS is going to get old.

There is a good deal of ambivelence no doubt about that, but those people really don't make any sound, so they don't count. No one is saying anything positive about the guy since Spring Training 2011. There are people who have been negative about him. They ain't hard to find. Like I said, I am not taking a referendum on the guy. I am a fan of his. I would hope that people appreciate his talents. However, ambivalence translates into nothing. No one cheers the guy.

[mvp 78]

There is a good deal of ambivelence no doubt about that' date=' but those people really don't make any sound, so they don't count. No one is saying anything positive about the guy since Spring Training 2011. There are people who have been negative about him. They ain't hard to find. Like I said, I am not taking a referendum on the guy. I am a fan of his. I would hope that people appreciate his talents. However, ambivalence translates into nothing. No one cheers the guy.[/quote']

 

That's not the argument you started with.

[a700hitter]

That's not the argument you started with.

I wasn't starting an argument.

[BSN07]

For the record' date=' I haven't turned on him.[/quote']

 

For the record I never liked him, not at the money they signed him for. It was too much and now will cost us Ellsbury in 2 years

 

 

 

a700, I wasn't trying to be sneaky hahaha. Wasn't around hardly at all last season with my new job and I'm running our whole baseball program now. So I kinda forgot about it. Then a few nights ago I went through some old messages and saw it. I haven't been around enough to get to the 10K threshold to change that other signature, so I thought that was a good compromise for now And I expect Lavarnway, Doubront, Tazawa, Iglesisas and Middlebrooks all will have a chance to make an impact at some point before or during 2013.

 

I will try and be around more often to keep the King on his toes And you have to admit the signature made you laugh! Happy New Years guys :thumbsup:

[a700hitter]

For the record I never liked him, not at the money they signed him for. It was too much and now will cost us Ellsbury in 2 years

 

 

 

a700, I wasn't trying to be sneaky hahaha. Wasn't around hardly at all last season with my new job and I'm running our whole baseball program now. So I kinda forgot about it. Then a few nights ago I went through some old messages and saw it. I haven't been around enough to get to the 10K threshold to change that other signature, so I thought that was a good compromise for now And I expect Lavarnway, Doubront, Tazawa, Iglesisas and Middlebrooks all will have a chance to make an impact at some point before or during 2013.

 

I will try and be around more often to keep the King on his toes And you have to admit the signature made you laugh! Happy New Years guys :thumbsup:

It did make me laugh. Glad to see you back posting. But remember that I said none would make an impact prior to 2013. I am on record a few times specifying that by "impact" I mean a starting player who performs average or above average for a major leaguer a his position. I am not seeing anything like that prior to 2013, if then.

[BSN07]

It did make me laugh. Glad to see you back posting. But remember that I said none would make an impact prior to 2013. I am on record a few times specifying that by "impact" I mean a starting player who performs average or above average for a major leaguer a his position. I am not seeing anything like that prior to 2013' date=' if then.[/quote']

 

You don't consider Reddick's production to be "impact"? I would argue in the time that he played, he was a league average player.

[a700hitter]

You don't consider Reddick's production to be "impact"? I would argue in the time that he played' date=' he was a league average player.[/quote']He really wasn't a full time starter. He sat against lefties. He was an average 4th OFer, but he wasn't a full time starter.

[mvp 78]

Shouldn't "impact" mean above average, not average? If he's average, he'll have zero impact. If he's below average, he'll have a negative impact (positive impact if above, etc.).

[a700hitter]

Shouldn't "impact" mean above average' date=' not average? If he's average, he'll have zero impact. If he's below average, he'll have a negative impact (positive impact if above, etc.).[/quote']Good point.

[SoxSport]

Regarding CC, I expect some creativity from Bobby to revive this $20M guy. Maybe batting leadoff or 2nd. Maybe playing RF. When you look at Ellsbury's horrific experience in LF--and then Crawford, you realize that a left handed thrower is at some disadvantage playing LF in Fenway--with that corner, etc.

 

I see the TradeRumor poll indicates a lot of people think Oswalt will sign with the Red Sox or Yankees.

You never know what the Yankees will do, but I don't see the Red Sox shelling out the kind of money Oswalt wants--which will take them over the cap--not for a 34 yo guy on the downside of his career.

The Yankees have a couple of good young pitchers in the high minors. Maybe they should put that young Mexican kid in the back end of their rotation. Maybe Colon is getting another stem cell transplant like ARod.

[a700hitter]

I have been reading in the MLB TradeRumor site that certain baseball people think that Cherries is waiting to see if someone cheap- a bargain-- falls to him further into the off season. That's a risky strategy. This team has a few critical holes. First and foremost, it needs one more reliable starter. If we get one and fill in less critical areas like a RH RFer and another bullpen arm-- maybe a Wheeler, the Sox will be a very strong team-- a playoff team. Without the additional starter, they are not a strong team and I don't see the playoffs in 2012. Everyone will jump ugly on me that one starter can't make that much difference. I think it does.

 

First of all, if you start the season with 2 starters (Aceves and Bard) who have never been starters in MLB except for a couple of emergency starts, you are going nowhere. Period. I predicted that the 2008 Yankes were going nowhere around May1st of that year (and I never count out the Yanks), because they had 2 rookies in their rotation. It didn't work for them and it ain't going to work for us. If we get another bona fide starter, Aceves can go back to his very valuable role as a swing-man and that will make the whole bullpen better. If Cherries loses his gamble and a cheap bargain Starting Pitcher doesn't fall into his lap, he is risking the entire 2012 season IMO. I think they should do their due diligence on the guys that are still out there or available for trade and bite the bullet and make the move before some other team gets the guy Cherries wants. They are probably going over the cap anyway, so the financial risk is not huge. The risk of coming up empty is enormous. If we hear that they can plug the holes during the season, that might as well signal a s*** season at Fenway, because major pitching holes are rarely filled during the season, and when they are filled during the season, they are usually very expensive.

[Palodios]

I have been reading in the MLB TradeRumor site that certain baseball people think that Cherries is waiting to see if someone cheap- a bargain-- falls to him further into the off season. That's a risky strategy. This team has a few critical holes. First and foremost, it needs one more reliable starter. If we get one and fill in less critical areas like a RH RFer and another bullpen arm-- maybe a Wheeler, the Sox will be a very strong team-- a playoff team. Without the additional starter, they are not a strong team and I don't see the playoffs in 2012. Everyone will jump ugly on me that one starter can't make that much difference. I think it does.

 

 

Jump on you? You're absolutely correct here. The difference between getting a 4th starter and not getting one is huge-- not so much because of the difference those pitchers make in their teams, but rather because of the pitcher they would be replacing.

 

I don't necessarily agree with rushing this process though. At some point, they should throw their best offers to a couple guys, and sees what sticks, but overpaying is never a good solution *cough cough Lackey. I would like to think BC has earned a little credit after the two good relief deals he made. There are still about five good options left, so I don't plan on panicking until that is down to 2.

[example1]

Jump on you? You're absolutely correct here. The difference between getting a 4th starter and not getting one is huge-- not so much because of the difference those pitchers make in their teams, but rather because of the pitcher they would be replacing.

 

I don't necessarily agree with rushing this process though. At some point, they should throw their best offers to a couple guys, and sees what sticks, but overpaying is never a good solution *cough cough Lackey. I would like to think BC has earned a little credit after the two good relief deals he made. There are still about five good options left, so I don't plan on panicking until that is down to 2.

 

I think you are right on here Palodios, and that a700 was pretty much right except for criticizing the wait strategy. If there aren't many suitors for a pitcher like Oswalt then the Sox can probably wait a bit. Same with Edwin Jackson. If the Sox are the main big-money bidders here they may feel pretty confident that those agents will give the Sox a call before agreeing anywhere.

 

Hell, they've already waited out the market this far. It would be stupid to stop being patient at this point. The main idea is to not get in over their heads on the contract for this #4 pitcher. Reasonable one or two year deals should be the goal because they can look to upgrade next year too.

[Palodios]

I get the feeling Edwin Jackson is not going to be on the Red Sox's radar. He's "asking" for a 5/60 year deal, and I'm not sure if the Red Sox are willing to give him half that. Kuroda/Oswalt/Garza are still their most likely targets. But, Saunders seems to be completely overlooked by most teams, and they could probably land him in their price range.

[Deebs]

I have been reading in the MLB TradeRumor site that certain baseball people think that Cherries is waiting to see if someone cheap- a bargain-- falls to him further into the off season. That's a risky strategy. This team has a few critical holes. First and foremost, it needs one more reliable starter. If we get one and fill in less critical areas like a RH RFer and another bullpen arm-- maybe a Wheeler, the Sox will be a very strong team-- a playoff team. Without the additional starter, they are not a strong team and I don't see the playoffs in 2012. Everyone will jump ugly on me that one starter can't make that much difference. I think it does.

 

First of all, if you start the season with 2 starters (Aceves and Bard) who have never been starters in MLB except for a couple of emergency starts, you are going nowhere. Period. I predicted that the 2008 Yankes were going nowhere around May1st of that year (and I never count out the Yanks), because they had 2 rookies in their rotation. It didn't work for them and it ain't going to work for us. If we get another bona fide starter, Aceves can go back to his very valuable role as a swing-man and that will make the whole bullpen better. If Cherries loses his gamble and a cheap bargain Starting Pitcher doesn't fall into his lap, he is risking the entire 2012 season IMO. I think they should do their due diligence on the guys that are still out there or available for trade and bite the bullet and make the move before some other team gets the guy Cherries wants. They are probably going over the cap anyway, so the financial risk is not huge. The risk of coming up empty is enormous. If we hear that they can plug the holes during the season, that might as well signal a s*** season at Fenway, because major pitching holes are rarely filled during the season, and when they are filled during the season, they are usually very expensive.

 

I don't think Cherington needs to rush into signing a #4 starter and thereby, likely overpaying. The patient approach seems to have worked for him so far.

 

Other than that, I completely agree with your post. Trying to go into a season with two relievers converted to starters is far too risky. Adding a #4 starter not only would make a difference in the rotation, but it would also add depth, and it would improve the bullpen directly by allowing Aceves to stay there where he fills a vital role, and indirectly by having starters who would (hopefully) get deeper into the games.

 

I think the addition of a good #4 takes this team from having just a fair shot at making the playoffs to being a favorite for the division. On paper, of course.

[FredLynn]

Regarding CC, I expect some creativity from Bobby to revive this $20M guy. Maybe batting leadoff or 2nd. Maybe playing RF. When you look at Ellsbury's horrific experience in LF--and then Crawford, you realize that a left handed thrower is at some disadvantage playing LF in Fenway--with that corner, etc.

 

I see the TradeRumor poll indicates a lot of people think Oswalt will sign with the Red Sox or Yankees.

You never know what the Yankees will do, but I don't see the Red Sox shelling out the kind of money Oswalt wants--which will take them over the cap--not for a 34 yo guy on the downside of his career.

The Yankees have a couple of good young pitchers in the high minors. Maybe they should put that young Mexican kid in the back end of their rotation. Maybe Colon is getting another stem cell transplant like ARod.

 

Does anyone know where we really stand with the cap? I have read that we are already over it and I have also read that the owners are trying hard to stay under it. Both cannot be true.

[a700hitter]

I don't think Cherington needs to rush into signing a #4 starter and thereby, likely overpaying. The patient approach seems to have worked for him so far.

How has it worked so far. It's not like he has picked up any bargains. He's made 2 trades and one FA acquisition. The market price of the players has not come down. Palyer after player has come off the FA boards and the trade targets like Gio have gone elsewhere too. We got Melancon and Bailey. I know little about melancon, but hopefully he has a live arm that can be useful, and Bailey has had a lot of arm issues. Our FA acquisition is Kelly Shoppach. He hit under the Mendoza line last year, so I don't think he was a tremendous value play. I don't know how the patient approach has worked so well thus far other than the waiting part.

[a700hitter]

I get the feeling Edwin Jackson is not going to be on the Red Sox's radar. He's "asking" for a 5/60 year deal' date=' and I'm not sure if the Red Sox are willing to give him half that. Kuroda/Oswalt/Garza are still their most likely targets. But, Saunders seems to be completely overlooked by most teams, and they could probably land him in their price range.[/quote']Saunders should be nothing more than a depth acquisition buried in the bullpen. I'd rather take my chances with Bard and Aceves starting that to see Saunders in the starting rotation. He's pretty bad.

[Deebs]

How has it worked so far. It's not like he has picked up any bargains. He's made 2 trades and one FA acquisition. The market price of the players has not come down. Palyer after player has come off the FA boards and the trade targets like Gio have gone elsewhere too. We got Melancon and Bailey. I know little about melancon' date=' but hopefully he has a live arm that can be useful, and Bailey has had a lot of arm issues. Our FA acquisition is Kelly Shoppach. He hit under the Mendoza line last year, so I don't think he was a tremendous value play. I don't know how the patient approach has worked so well thus far other than the waiting part.[/quote']

 

Rather than signing Papelbon or Madson or any other closer to some ridiculous contract, Cherington showed patience. He was able to acquire two very good relievers who are young and under team control through 2014 (Bailey) and 2016 (Melancon) for about 1/3 of the cost of Papelbon for this year. The players we gave up, IMO, were well worth the players we got back.

 

As much as I love Papelbon, I am very glad that we did not sign him to the deal that the Phillies gave him, and ditto that with the other closers who were available through free agency.

 

I wasn't even condsidering Shoppach. I agree, he was not a tremendous value play.