Phillies sign Papelbon

[User Name]

What continues murdering the logic is that you don't understand and probably will never understand the fact, that Papelbon is not one of those relievers that you just suggested or one of those Theo's FA busts. Again, he is a proved and successful closer in the AL East in one of the most complicated evioremnts to play the game; and again, as a closer with all that it represents.

 

IMO, the closer spot has evolved a lot in baseball and mostly in the last decade. This is not the case for DHs. Closers are no longer commodities (DHs are becoming) but specialities; don't believe me? How many closers are out there like Papelbon? I wouldn't count not even a handful. Teams that want to run as contenders these days and in the coming future, must have an elite closer, since the league is turning more and more competitive and they could mark the difference between winning or lossing rings. I wouldn't be surprise if setup guys become specialities as well in the near future. But That's me.

 

Yes, stop overpriced and extended contracts but not in you ace in the BP.

 

You're not answering any of my questions. Where's the conservative approach about big bucks to pitchers? You're talking like you're certain he'll be worth the money. Have you seen the list of closers who flame out after signing for big bucks? Some of them had similar or better track records than Papelbon and flamed out.

 

Your fondness for Papelbon is not consistent with what history has shown us about big bucks, long year contracts for relief pitchers. The funny thing is that had they signed him for that money, you would have probably been bitching about years/money for the contract anyways.

[User Name]

Add in the fact that Papelbon was dominating in the AL East in this particular market while Bell was out in the NL West pitching for the Padres.

 

Agree with this. Bell should not be an option for three years.

[iortiz]

You're not answering any of my questions. Where's the conservative approach about big bucks to pitchers? You're talking like you're certain he'll be worth the money. Have you seen the list of closers who flame out after signing for big bucks? Some of them had similar or better track records than Papelbon and flamed out.

 

Your fondness for Papelbon is not consistent with what history has shown us about big bucks, long year contracts for relief pitchers. The funny thing is that had they signed him for that money, you would have probably been bitching about years/money for the contract anyways.

 

And you haven't read/understood my point. You are comparing apples with oranges. Numbers, eviorement, division, abilities, market, times, etc.

 

He.is.the.best.closer.we.ever.had......proved and arguably the best projected in the position for the next 4 years in the game. That is called value. I guess this is what Philadelphia saw in him and you certainly did not.

 

Comprende?

[Kimmi]

Bard should be good' date=' maybe even very good, but he will not be papelbon, and we will not have a great 8th inning guy. Locking down the 8th and 9th inning was a tremendous luxury that we will all miss.[/quote']

 

I don't disagree about Paps being one of the best. Like I said, I would have liked to have him back. I just can't agree with the 4 year deal.

 

Bard should be good. Jenks could contribute at the back end of the bullpen if he's healthy. There are also plenty of relievers who can close that are free agents. I would pick up one of those guys on a short term deal, one or two years.

 

The options are out there. Ben just needs make sure he provides the bullpen with enough depth in the case that someone falters.

[Kimmi]

Damon was pretty good for the length of his contract with the Yankees. He was and still is an offensive catalyst. He helped the arch rival win their only Championship in 10 years.

 

I agree, that was a good signing for the Yankees. However, I don't think it would have been a good signing for the Sox. He was good as a LF and a DH playing in YS with a short right field porch. He would not have been good as a CF or playing half his games in Fenway.

[Kimmi]

I love it that people would like to get Heath Bell and give him 3 years' date=' but they agree with Papelbon leaving. Bell is 34 and Papelbon is 30. The math doesn't add up.[/quote']

 

Personally, I would not give any of the remaining available closers 3 years.

 

I would take a chance on Nathan on a one year deal.

[User Name]

And you haven't read/understood my point. You are comparing apples with oranges. Numbers' date=' eviorement, division, abilities, market, times, etc.[/quote']

 

A relief pitcher is a relief pitcher. How is comparing a relief pitcher to other relief pitchers with similar track records comparing apples to oranges?

 

Your point is.....to bitch?

 

He.is.the.best.closer.we.ever.had......proved and arguably the best projected in the position for the next 4 years in the game. That is called value. I guess this is what Philadelphia saw in him and you certainly did not.

 

Comprende?

 

He's the best closer the Red Sox have had, sure, but it doesn't mean he's bulletproof or anything of the sort. You don't know how he is going to perform in the future. Maybe the fact that Papelbon is a pitcher like the others who has his issues health-wise (he couldn't become a starter due to his shoulder and has never pitched 70 innings as a reliever) numbers wise (his 2010 could not have been an aberration but rather a sign of things to come) and money wise (no reliever is worth 5 years/60 + million).

 

I think those are the things the Red Sox saw that you refuse to see because you see Papelbon as some historic failure-proof pitcher. He's very good, the best the Sox have had, but not worth another stupid contract that fickle fans are going to be bitching about until the end of time.

 

Also, you still haven't responded my question: How can you ask for the Red Sox to stop handing out stupid contracts then in the same breath ask for them to improve on the contract he signed with the Phillies?

 

Do you comprendes the question?

[jung]

What Philly sees in Paps is a top of the line closer that fills that spot certainly for the next two years which I think Philly thinks are "all in", prime, take it to the house years for them, much like 2007 turned out for us. I also think that they were willing to give him the added two years because that is what it took to close out competition from elsewhere. We are told that is what they were offering Madson so it looks like they were willing to go four for him as well for the same reasons. I very much suspect that Philly is prepared to overpay for any FA deal they are going to make right now because this is what you do when you are truly confident that you have almost all the pieces you need to get to and win the WS and are working to complete the puzzle with the last 1-3 pieces.

[User Name]

What Philly sees in Paps is a top of the line closer that fills that spot certainly for the next two years which I think Philly thinks are "all in"' date=' prime, take it to the house years for them, much like 2007 turned out for us. I also think that they were willing to give him the added two years because that is what it took to close out competition from elsewhere. We are told that is what they were offering Madson so it looks like they were willing to go four for him as well for the same reasons. I very much suspect that Philly is prepared to overpay for any FA deal they are going to make right now because this is what you do when you are truly confident that you have almost all the pieces you need to get to and win the WS and are working to complete the puzzle with the last 1-3 pieces.[/quote']

 

It's still not smart business though.

[jung]

It's still not smart business though.

 

For a closer or any reliever this is true. Just pointing out what differentiates what Philly is doing from what some other team not positioned as they are at this point in time might be doing.

[User Name]

For a closer or any reliever this is true. Just pointing out what differentiates what Philly is doing from what some other team not positioned as they are at this point in time might be doing.

 

Every time a team has given a relief pitcher a three year or more contract for 30 million or more, said pitcher has flamed out, with Mariano being the exception that proves the rule.

 

With the roster full of underachievers and overpaid players like Lackey, Jenks, Crawford (so far) and Dice-K this was a risk that the Red Sox should not have taken if they were serious in their comments that they would be more careful with FA contracts.

[Elktonnick]

It's still not smart business though.

 

It seems that the Boras factor may have played a bigger part in the Phillies decision than I had originally thought. Apparently what some Philly scribes are saying is that Boras wanted a fifth year for Masdon. If that's the case I can't see the Sox going in his direction.

[jung]

This is not the first time this has happened with Boras. When it does I end up wondering if there is a Boras backlash from the player. Here Madson had 4/50 and probably the vesting clause in hand and apparently Boras kept pushing for that 5th year under contract. Pushing everything PAST the limit is something he is known for. Suddenly Madson does not have a deal with the team he is already playing for and he is the guy on the outside looking in at least with that team. While he probably did not want to move, he is moving now and does not know at this point what he is going to get. Surely Madson will have a team to go to but I gotta' wonder about that first phone call between player and agent after something like this.

[Elktonnick]

This is not the first time this has happened with Boras. When it does I end up wondering if there is a Boras backlash from the player. Here Madson had 4/50 and probably the vesting clause in hand and apparently Boras kept pushing for that 5th year under contract. Pushing everything PAST the limit is something he is known for. Suddenly Madson does not have a deal with the team he is already playing for and he is guy on the outside looking in at least with that team. While he probably did not want to move' date=' he is moving now and does not know at this point what he is going to get. Surely Madson will have a team to go to but I gotta' wonder about that first phone between player and agent after something like this.[/quote']

 

Yes it seems to be happening more and more. One can only hope that these ballplayers get wise.

[User Name]

Didn't something similar happen to Johnny Damon with the Yanks a couple years ago?

[jacksonianmarch]

Didn't something similar happen to Johnny Damon with the Yanks a couple years ago?

 

The Sox had an offer out there that they wouldnt budge on and the Yankees did a quick strike and didnt allow them to shop the offer. It's good negotiating, but typically means you have the top offer by a fair amount, otherwise it doesnt work

[User Name]

Not that instance. When the Yankees extended an offer, Boras was holding out for more money and the Yankees pulled the offer back and went with Gardner in LF, forcing Damon to sign with the Tigers.

[jung]

That is right User...it was the Damon Tigers thing.

 

This one seems a little uglier for Boras though in that 4/50 + vesting for a closer allowing him to stay with the team he is playing for would have been one hell of a deal for Madson. At critical junctures agent and player are available to each other 24/7 too. So when Boras had the first inklings of an issue he probably informed Madson at a point when Madson had no idea that the ground had shifted right under his feet. Ugh what an ugly phone call.

[VA Sox Fan]

Such Hypocrites on this boards.

 

Last year when Crawford was signed , almost everyone was excited about it and was all praising Theo about it .

 

Crawford turns to s*** in 1 year and half the people who we're all for Crawford are now against it and blaming Theo for it .

 

the same would of happen if papelbon would have been signed .

 

That's what it's like it here now. Posters bitch, moan,whine and bitch some more. And then we have all these new posters that think they are "adding" but they are actually not. And the Mods are NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.

 

I know I don't add a lot with predictions and mistakes made by the FO. But I am a lifelong fan, like most of us out here. Sorry that I am looking forward to 2012. But I really am.

[iortiz]

A relief pitcher is a relief pitcher. How is comparing a relief pitcher to other relief pitchers with similar track records comparing apples to oranges?

 

Your point is.....to bitch?

 

 

 

He's the best closer the Red Sox have had, sure, but it doesn't mean he's bulletproof or anything of the sort. You don't know how he is going to perform in the future. Maybe the fact that Papelbon is a pitcher like the others who has his issues health-wise (he couldn't become a starter due to his shoulder and has never pitched 70 innings as a reliever) numbers wise (his 2010 could not have been an aberration but rather a sign of things to come) and money wise (no reliever is worth 5 years/60 + million).

 

I think those are the things the Red Sox saw that you refuse to see because you see Papelbon as some historic failure-proof pitcher. He's very good, the best the Sox have had, but not worth another stupid contract that fickle fans are going to be bitching about until the end of time.

 

Also, you still haven't responded my question: How can you ask for the Red Sox to stop handing out stupid contracts then in the same breath ask for them to improve on the contract he signed with the Phillies?

 

Do you comprendes the question?

 

I thought that somehow I already answered this. I will try to do it better.

 

You pay long term contracts to Aces. Stars. Elite players. There are a handful in each position. Papelbon is in that category in his position. We paid Lackey as he was an ace. He was solid but not even close to be an ace. You do not do that. Theo constantly did that, reason why he is gone (among others). He signed average/solid/good players and paid 'em as if they were aces. I believe, you already know the cases.

 

Large market/payrolls teams are and arguably will continue paying long term contracts to aces. Our case match with this. The KEY is to know how/whom/when to do this. Yes, it is not trivial, reason why GMs are usually well paid in order to plan and execute that.

 

You don't miss an opportunity like this since aces do not grow in trees or just because you shitted the bed in the recent past at the FA. You just do the opposite. You learn and execute signing aces when available or at least you explore/try/do your best to afford 'em.. In our case we didn't even do that (We didn't even presented a formal proposal)

 

Yes, still there is a risk, but aces minimize it. Papelbon is an ace. Rivera is making 15 MUSD. Pap will make 12.5 M. There is a +- 17%. IMO it is fair, considering their numbers/performance and mostly since Papelbon is in his prime and is young but mature/experienced and well projected and Rive is the best.

 

Hope that I had answered your question.

 

We have plenty discussed this matter in other threads. I encourage you to read them for more fully details. Don't take me wrong but I don't want to pass through this again.

[User Name]

Carl Crawford was an "ace", a "star", an "elite player". How's that working out for the Red Sox? No matter what, he's not going to be worth his contract anymore because 2011 was a lost year and the tail end of his contract is going to be smack-dab in the middle of his decline phase.

 

Point is, overpaying for players is never a good idea. And don't tell me the Phillies paid market value for Papelbon, because they didn't, and had they upped that offer, the Sox wouldn't have paid market value either.

 

Those instances of overpaying are the ones that create s*** situations like the one the Sox are facing right now.

[User Name]

That's what it's like it here now. Posters bitch, moan,whine and bitch some more. And then we have all these new posters that think they are "adding" but they are actually not. And the Mods are NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.

 

I know I don't add a lot with predictions and mistakes made by the FO. But I am a lifelong fan, like most of us out here. Sorry that I am looking forward to 2012. But I really am.

 

They will field a competitive team. Judging the team by how it looks in November is foolish.

 

But in the end, winning cures everything so if the team they assemble makes a strong run next year most of the complaining will stop,

 

You still have your chronic bitchers who won't stop complaining no matter how the team does. The type of guy who complains about a team not winning 100 games after they won the WS. Those come with the territory.

[iortiz]

Just for the record. I said that you pay long term contracts to aces. You never ever overpay long term contracts. 50/4 is not overpaying to me. The ceiling is in 15 anyway, isnt it?, so...

[jung]

The only thing I will offer at this point is a perspective on the practical impact of what the Sox did or did not do.

 

Paps agents literally told Cherington that they would not entertain a matching offer from the Sox to Paps which is really the player telling the team that he is so disinterested in staying here that even if you offered him exactly the same deal that Philly offered, he would not take it. By extension that is the player saying I don't want to be here. I prefer playing in Philly that much more than playing in Boston.

 

Given that dynamic, would you be inclined to then offer even more than Philly offered or would you say to yourself "wait a minute here....do I really want to offer this guy a fortune to chain him to this franchise when he is telling me that he is so disinterested in staying here that I have to actually pay him more to play for Boston than he will take to play for Philly?"

 

You can argue that Cherington should have been engaged earlier but I think given that specific instruction there was no way that the two sides would have carried through a successful negotiation regardless of when they started unless Boston outbid everybody else by some huge amount. Paps is telling Cherington through his agents not to waste his time. So I would judge the practical result as 0.

[jacksonianmarch]

Not sure why' date=' cause you're team is not winning it the way it is now[/quote']

 

Last I checked, we won the division this year by 6 games and we didnt play a meaningful game in the last 3 weeks of the season. Our only free agents of note are Colon and Garcia and our minor league system is stocked in our one area of need in the upper levels. I am sure we'll be fine.

[jacksonianmarch]

The only thing I will offer at this point is a perspective on the practical impact of what the Sox did or did not do.

 

Paps agents literally told Cherington that they would not entertain a matching offer from the Sox to Paps which is really the player telling the team that he is so disinterested in staying here that even if you offered him exactly the same deal that Philly offered, he would not take it. By extension that is the player saying I don't want to be here. I prefer playing in Philly that much more than playing in Boston.

 

Given that dynamic, would you be inclined to then offer even more than Philly offered or would you say to yourself "wait a minute here....do I really want to offer this guy a fortune to chain him to this franchise when he is telling me that he is so disinterested in staying here that I have to actually pay him more to play for Boston than he will take to play for Philly?"

 

You can argue that Cherington should have been engaged earlier but I think given that specific instruction there was no way that the two sides would have carried through a successful negotiation regardless of when they started unless Boston outbid everybody else by some huge amount. Paps is telling Cherington through his agents not to waste his time. So I would judge the practical result as 0.

 

I think you're reading too much into this. We all knew Papelbon was going to set the market for closers. He did. He didnt want to give the sox a chance to match because he was waiting for a market setting contract. If he got what he wanted, he wasnt going to go back to the sox and ask them to match it. If the sox offered him that contract out of the getgo, then he's still in a sox uniform

[User Name]

Just for the record. I said that you pay long term contracts to aces. You never ever overpay long term contracts. 50/4 is not overpaying to me. The ceiling is in 15 anyway' date=' isnt it?, so...[/quote']

 

For Rivera, who has a history of consistency, and no physical issues. If 50/4 is not overpaying for a reliever, then Lackey and Crawford aren't overpaid either.

 

Hey, let's offer Bell 30/2, since 15 is the ceiling.

[jung]

I think you're reading too much into this. We all knew Papelbon was going to set the market for closers. He did. He didnt want to give the sox a chance to match because he was waiting for a market setting contract. If he got what he wanted, he wasnt going to go back to the sox and ask them to match it. If the sox offered him that contract out of the getgo, then he's still in a sox uniform

 

And the chance that the Sox were going to do that was also 0 which brings me back to where I was....the practical result was 0.

[iortiz]

I think you're reading too much into this. We all knew Papelbon was going to set the market for closers. He did. He didnt want to give the sox a chance to match because he was waiting for a market setting contract. If he got what he wanted' date=' he wasnt going to go back to the sox and ask them to match it. [b']If the sox offered him that contract out of the getgo, then he's still in a sox uniform[/b]

 

Bingo.

 

I just figured out what is getgo.

[jacksonianmarch]

For Rivera, who has a history of consistency, and no physical issues. If 50/4 is not overpaying for a reliever, then Lackey and Crawford aren't overpaid either.

 

Hey, let's offer Bell 30/2, since 15 is the ceiling.

 

Bell is not the guy you want. Goofy as f*** and wants to stay in SD even though they havent won a damn thing in years. He's also pretty old as a FA and is likely to get a 3 yr deal if he leaves SD.

 

I think your guy on the cheap is Nathan. He has dominated in the AL, is coming off injury and showed his pre injury stuff prior to the end of the season. He might be the guy you can get on a 1 yr deal at an AAV of around $6-8 mil to recoup his value and give the sox one more bridge yr to get Bard ready. Then you can do the "closer by committee" BS that gets Bard 20 or so chances to close games out