Ben Cherington

[FredLynn]

Pumps, should we start a "survivors of SAWXHEADS" thread just to keep track of us all? Kind of like Vic did when his ship crashed there?

 

It would be cool if we did that and some of these guys here would post on it too, very diverse opinions here but they all seem to mesh.

 

Sounds reasonable to me. Maybe a newcomers thread in the Off Topic area would be appropriate. Why limit ourselves to just former Sawxhead posters? This is not to exclude anyone, just to help find one another since that seems to be an issue. I am not sure of the rules here yet, but go ahead and do it. Good idea IMO.

Brennan, I am embracing this change. I think that sometimes change is good, as you know from what I have posted over there.

[Gringo]

I agree that all of that stuff about chicken and drinkin' would have all fallen off the radar screen if the team had been winning. Nobody would have cared. It has gotten the attention that it has gotten because they were losing and most of them had grown out of condition to boot. The chicken and drinking and the video games became indicative of the lack of effort to turn it around even with a post season appearance still within their grasp. I should point out that even one post season game can be worth a good deal of money to a franchise.

 

Writing this off as a bunch of players slumping is a mistake. They did not slump. They stopped playing. I am going to use an example from plate appearances because as regards the pitchers, their mechanics really did fall apart which is indicative of poor conditioning and lack of focus. But looking at and seeing a pitcher's mechanics suffering can be tough to point out with the exception maybe of Lackey who's slider becomes very hittable when he drops down especially now, weeks later.

 

If you guys remember from watching the games, issues at the plate were not gradual in coming at all. One day they were relatively patient as they had been for most of the year and within no more than a couple of games, they were swinging at everything. They were swinging at balls two feet off the plate, batter after batter, one after the other after the other! With few exceptions like Peddey, Ells and Scuts, they could not get back to the dugout fast enough from a plate appearance. It got to the point where I began to wonder when they would ask the ump to just give them two strikes to begin with to save them the trouble. When that sort of change is so widespread and happens as suddenly as it happened here, that is not slumping. They gave up. They stopped playing. If they could have still been paid I suspect some of them would not have shown up at all.

 

As I recall it became really obvious right around the doubleheader that has been pointed out as being the straw that broke the camel's back for the players. They had their big clubhouse explosion about having to play 14 road games out of 17 and the doubleheader and while they won the doubleheader, that was the end of the season for this team. We or at least I had no information about the clubhouse blow up at that time and I don't think there was any news about it when it happened. But I do remember the time period in question well and I do remember thinking that I could not understand how or why so many of them had become so impatient at the plate all at once. Right from that period to the end of the season the only sprinting I saw was from the on deck circle to the plate and back to the dugout. The low point was one of the games at the end against Baltimore, I believe, when they had a 6 pitch half inning against....6 pitches for 3 outs in a game that they were still in at the time. That is until that inning! Baltimore came to the plate in their half and effectively ended the game.

 

its a good point ... kevin millar and the idiots did shots of jack before games....but becuz they won it all, nobody cared...

[ipot]

Sounds reasonable to me. Maybe a newcomers thread in the Off Topic area would be appropriate. Why limit ourselves to just former Sawxhead posters? This is not to exclude anyone, just to help find one another since that seems to be an issue. I am not sure of the rules here yet, but go ahead and do it. Good idea IMO.

Brennan, I am embracing this change. I think that sometimes change is good, as you know from what I have posted over there.

 

Good idea. We can have our own 'alumni of sawxheads' thread here! I'm up for that. We can keep our old banter going, and some of the folks here are welcome to join us. Be my guest, brennan if you want to post a sawxheads alums thread in the Off Topic area. PM me when it's up.

[3rdManOut]

So once Ben has full control over his position, what should be his first move after finding a manager?

[Palodios]

So once Ben has full control over his position' date=' what should be his first move after finding a manager?[/quote']

 

Exercise Scutaro's option.

 

There are many different possibilities that he could go with the team, but if he can find a better shortstop for less than 4.5 million I'd be very surprised.

[FredLynn]

So once Ben has full control over his position' date=' what should be his first move after finding a manager?[/quote']

 

Deal with the Lackey issue. Through whatever means necessary, get that joker off the team. He epitomizes what went wrong this year. As Curt the Mouth said, I just don't know how he can ever put on a Sox uniform again.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

People act like it's so easy to get rid of Lackey. We have ither s*** to worry about anyways. There is a lot on the plate.

[FredLynn]

People act like it's so easy to get rid of Lackey. We have ither s*** to worry about anyways. There is a lot on the plate.

 

No one said its going to be easy. People are saying that its necessary. And it is. You really want the worst SP in baseball out there for us next season? Its going to be very difficult to get rid of him, but thats one of the first things that has to be done.

[iortiz]

No one said its going to be easy. People are saying that its necessary. And it is. You really want the worst SP in baseball out there for us next season? Its going to be very difficult to get rid of him' date=' but thats one of the first things that has to be done.[/quote']

 

He's in way to CHC.

[jung]

They are probably already doing this to some extent but given what happened here I would think he would want to parse the team a few different ways to see what he really has. As part of that process especially after this season I would meet with the players that were under contract to try to gain some understanding for their expectations for the coming year.

 

Once I had all of the data if it were me (as if I know what the hell I am doing) the first order of business would be making offers to the top free agents from my team. These are the guys going into the FA market from my team that I have decided to make a real serious effort to keep. You want to get an offer out to them so that you get a dialogue going ASAP and get counter offers back ASAP so you can make some judgements about how far apart you are. Paps is likely in this group.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

No one said its going to be easy. People are saying that its necessary. And it is. You really want the worst SP in baseball out there for us next season? Its going to be very difficult to get rid of him' date=' but thats one of the first things that has to be done.[/quote']

 

Yeah and it's also necessary to acquire an elite pitcher, manager etc. We're stuck with Lackey. He cost too much and he f***ing sucks. Who is going to take him?

[SoxSport]

So once Ben has full control over his position' date=' what should be his first move after finding a manager?[/quote']

 

fire the coaching staff

[SoxSport]

Yeah and it's also necessary to acquire an elite pitcher' date=' manager etc. We're stuck with Lackey. He cost too much and he f***ing sucks. Who is going to take him?[/quote']

 

no. he'll be released if they can't deal him. he's history.

[MNSoxChief102]

no. he'll be released if they can't deal him. he's history.

 

You can't just release him. Baseball contracts are guaranteed, meaning he's getting every penny of that deal no matter how much he sucks.

 

If the Sox agree to pay pretty much all of his contract in return for a middling prospect or two, they'll find a taker. Teams in the NL West or AL West would take him I would think... big ballparks out there and maybe a change of scenery away from Boston helps him figure his s*** out. Personally, I think the Padres are the best option.

[SoxSport]

You can't just release him. Baseball contracts are guaranteed, meaning he's getting every penny of that deal no matter how much he sucks.

 

If the Sox agree to pay pretty much all of his contract in return for a middling prospect or two, they'll find a taker. Teams in the NL West or AL West would take him I would think... big ballparks out there and maybe a change of scenery away from Boston helps him figure his s*** out. Personally, I think the Padres are the best option.

 

 

They might save a little finding a deal for him.

 

The important thing is to get him out of Boston. He is a liability.

 

I still think tying him around Theo's neck and giving him to Chicago isn't a bad idea.

[seabeachfred]

Pumps, should we start a "survivors of SAWXHEADS" thread just to keep track of us all? Kind of like Vic did when his ship crashed there?

 

It would be cool if we did that and some of these guys here would post on it too, very diverse opinions here but they all seem to mesh.

 

Anyone here could go to Sawxheads and post there as well. At least we get some hard hitting opinions here and that would be refreshing change of pace from that group that couldn't take the heat and fled to start a new board.

 

However, my main concern right now is to see whether Cherrington has the fire in his belly and the guts and brains to go with it and hire a manager who will demand compliance with some much needed rules, will emphasize fundamentals and have the team physically and mentally ready to play ball next April, something the past regime was very unsuccessful getting it done.

[redsoxrules]

So you blame Tito? I guess you don't think it was all bad luck.

 

A lot was bad luck but Tito made some questionable moves down the stretch .

like hitting Crawford 2nd, Gonzo 5th and I could go on .

[seabeachfred]

A lot was bad luck but Tito made some questionable moves down the stretch .

like hitting Crawford 2nd, Gonzo 5th and I could go on .

 

Nothing we can do about that now RSR. Just be grateful this season's nightmare is over and that we get a tougher and more determined leader in the dugout. That has to be a first priority in my opinion. The new skipper must be a complete opposite of Francona.

[a700hitter]

A lot was bad luck but Tito made some questionable moves down the stretch .

like hitting Crawford 2nd, Gonzo 5th and I could go on .

What about the Sox strength and conditioning program? Ownership is looking to their Soccer organization for alternatives. There was plenty of blame to go around, and going back to your original post on this, whether Crawford turns out to be a bust has nothing to do with whether I wanted to get him. If he's a bust, it goes on Theo's record, not the fans.

[FredLynn]

What about the Sox strength and conditioning program? Ownership is looking to their Soccer organization for alternatives. There was plenty of blame to go around' date=' and going back to your original post on this, whether Crawford turns out to be a bust has nothing to do with whether I wanted to get him. If he's a bust, it goes on Theo's record, not the fans.[/quote']

 

EXACTLY!

I had no problem with signing Crawford either..other than a very heavy LHH OF, which I was concerned about. I preferred Werth or even Bay. But I didn't mind Crawford either, seeing him as an upgrade.

In the end, its not ME who is responsible for that possible mistake any more than if its Theo's fault if the scalpel slips when I am doing a circumcision (OK...graphic example): its the GM. HE has final accountability for his mistakes. That is HIS job. To his credit, he admitted he made a mistake with Cameron, which he did. I haven't heard him say that about some of his other mistakes. He has lots to choose from.

[ipot]

EXACTLY!

I had no problem with signing Crawford either..other than a very heavy LHH OF, which I was concerned about. I preferred Werth or even Bay. But I didn't mind Crawford either, seeing him as an upgrade.

In the end, its not ME who is responsible for that possible mistake any more than if its Theo's fault if the scalpel slips when I am doing a circumcision (OK...graphic example): its the GM. HE has final accountability for his mistakes. That is HIS job. To his credit, he admitted he made a mistake with Cameron, which he did. I haven't heard him say that about some of his other mistakes. He has lots to choose from.

 

I personally wasn't a fan of the Crawford signing vis-a-vis it was TOO much money. Way too much. My first reaction was: why do we need another speedy LHH OFer? It was part of an Epstein plan to not re-sign Ellsbury. And now it backfired.

 

We need RHH OFers; we play 81 games at Fenway 'fer krissakes!

 

I'm sure Cherington is a nice, smart guy. But, they need to bring an outsider to win respect and clean house. That's my humble opinion.

[FredLynn]

I personally wasn't a fan of the Crawford signing vis-a-vis it was TOO much money. Way too much. My first reaction was: why do we need another speedy LHH OFer? It was part of an Epstein plan to not re-sign Ellsbury. And now it backfired.

 

We need RHH OFers; we play 81 games at Fenway 'fer krissakes!

 

I'm sure Cherington is a nice, smart guy. But, they need to bring an outsider to win respect and clean house. That's my humble opinion.

 

You will eat your words on Crawford next year IPOT....

And we WILL have a power hitting RHH OF in RF next year, the rebuilding year.

[jung]

I was not happy with it at the time because of the money and the similarity to Ells as a player. However if we can trade Ells and bring in more pitching by doing so I would be happy with that. Crawford will never be worth the money he is being paid but he will play better. I didn't like the fact that it literally forces the Sox to say goodbye to Ells and I will be unhappy if they just let Ells contract run out. This is likely the very best year to trade him and if I were the Sox I would be looking to do that.

[ipot]

You will eat your words on Crawford next year IPOT....

And we WILL have a power hitting RHH OF in RF next year, the rebuilding year.

 

Cuddyer seems to be the prime target at this point....let's see.

[seabeachfred]

What about the Sox strength and conditioning program? Ownership is looking to their Soccer organization for alternatives. There was plenty of blame to go around' date=' and going back to your original post on this, whether Crawford turns out to be a bust has nothing to do with whether I wanted to get him. If he's a bust, it goes on Theo's record, not the fans.[/quote']

 

What about the Sox strength and conditioning program 700? That was a real haymaker by you and it is a question we all should be asking. Our medical staff has been one miserable example of incompetency going back to 2009 when they pronounced Youk to be fine on a hand injury and then he was out almost two weeks. Or in 2010 when they completely misdiagnosed Ellsbury's rib injuries with the result he was then lost for the season. Or this year when they refused to give Bucholz an MRI when he complaine about back discomfort and we were told it was nothing major that a few weeks of rest would cure. A fracture, large or small, is MAJOR and we lost Clay for the rest of the season.

 

The team needs to do a lot this winter and getting rid of Francona and Epstein were good steps in the right direction from where I sit, but they need a new medical staff badly, and to say sayonara to Varitek, Wakefield, Miller and McDonald for starters. Then we can get to the problem of fixing our team for next year.

[jung]

I am not sure what happened with the med team especially with regard to Buckholtz. You would think that scheduling an MRI would be so logical given the asset that Buckholtz represents. It takes me back to Ells and the stir that was created because he sought outside opinions and ended up rehabing away from Yawkey Way. Frankly there has been a level of controversy about the Sox med teams going all the way back to Dr. Pappas when Tom Yawkey and then Mrs. Yawkey owned the team. Kind of hard to understand.

 

As for the strength and conditioning guys, there is a big difference between something like pro football and pro baseball. In pro football, there is much more inclusion of conditioning standards in player contracts and the physical risk to players makes them more inclined to a regimen provided by the team. In baseball the strength and conditioning guys are more there to assist the players conduct their own workouts. In baseball the team can prescribe a rehab program for a player and the team can hold the player to that prescribed program. That said, if the player wants to rehab outside of what the team has prescribed he still can do it and teams tend to be fairly lenient in that regard not wanting to alienate the player. The team cannot prescribe conditioning programs in the sense that they cannot include those standards in the player's contract as it would violate the terms of the Basic Agreement and if they can't do that they really cannot do anything. It is truly up to the player. Maybe if the Sox made better help available to the players they would be more prone to take advantage of them but it is up to the player as things stand today.

 

I will be very interested to see what the owners do in this next CBA negotiation. If they just roll over then that will speak volumes with regard to their state of happiness or unhappiness. Ownership has regularly commented that the current agreement really does not work and that they capitulated too soon when they had a chance to make for a more even handed agreement. At the same time at least to date I have not seen them with the intestinal fortitude to make a run at meaningful change.

[FredLynn]

In baseball the team can prescribe a rehab program for a player and the team can hold the player to that prescribed program.

 

Seems to me that this is the "out" Jung. If a player is so far out of shape that it affects their performance adversely (eg: Jenks and maybe Beckett), could the team not consider them "injured" and prescribe a conditioning/weight loss program to force them to be in some sort of basic physical condition?

[seabeachfred]

I am not sure what happened with the med team especially with regard to Buckholtz. You would think that scheduling an MRI would be so logical given the asset that Buckholtz represents. It takes me back to Ells and the stir that was created because he sought outside opinions and ended up rehabing away from Yawkey Way. Frankly there has been a level of controversy about the Sox med teams going all the way back to Dr. Pappas when Tom Yawkey and then Mrs. Yawkey owned the team. Kind of hard to understand.

 

As for the strength and conditioning guys, there is a big difference between something like pro football and pro baseball. In pro football, there is much more inclusion of conditioning standards in player contracts and the physical risk to players makes them more inclined to a regimen provided by the team. In baseball the strength and conditioning guys are more there to assist the players conduct their own workouts. In baseball the team can prescribe a rehab program for a player and the team can hold the player to that prescribed program. That said, if the player wants to rehab outside of what the team has prescribed he still can do it and teams tend to be fairly lenient in that regard not wanting to alienate the player. The team cannot prescribe conditioning programs in the sense that they cannot include those standards in the player's contract as it would violate the terms of the Basic Agreement and if they can't do that they really cannot do anything. It is truly up to the player. Maybe if the Sox made better help available to the players they would be more prone to take advantage of them but it is up to the player as things stand today.

 

I will be very interested to see what the owners do in this next CBA negotiation. If they just roll over then that will speak volumes with regard to their state of happiness or unhappiness. Ownership has regularly commented that the current agreement really does not work and that they capitulated too soon when they had a chance to make for a more even handed agreement. At the same time at least to date I have not seen them with the intestinal fortitude to make a run at meaningful change.

 

Jung---700 brought up the medical staff and not a minute too soon if you ask me. He sees as I do that this group has been less than stellar in diagnosing injuries correctly, nor have they and their conditioning cousins been able to keep our players on the field. The fact is we have a large laundry list of problems to solve this off season and while two of them have been abated in the dismissal of Francona and Epstein's fleeing to Chicago, we need a new medical and conditioning team and only if Henry and Lucchino were totally blind could they not see this.

 

Then we have to be certain to hire a manager 180 degrees removed from Francona and it would be even better if we could hire a GM from outside the organization that doesn't have a taint of Epsteinism on his body. Only then can we get down to ridding the team of the driftwood and getting the players needed to make us forget what a miserable winter of discontent we're all going to suffering the next few months.

[FredLynn]

Jung---700 brought up the medical staff and not a minute too soon if you ask me. He sees as I do that this group has been less than stellar in diagnosing injuries correctly, nor have they and their conditioning cousins been able to keep our players on the field. The fact is we have a large laundry list of problems to solve this off season and while two of them have been abated in the dismissal of Francona and Epstein's fleeing to Chicago, we need a new medical and conditioning team and only if Henry and Lucchino were totally blind could they not see this.

 

Then we have to be certain to hire a manager 180 degrees removed from Francona and it would be even better if we could hire a GM from outside the organization that doesn't have a taint of Epsteinism on his body. Only then can we get down to ridding the team of the driftwood and getting the players needed to make us forget what a miserable winter of discontent we're all going to suffering the next few months.

 

The medical staff has been HORRIBLE IMO. How can they not order an MRI on Buchholtz until AUGUST? His symptoms began in July. Because of that mistake, he missed an extra month of time on the field, possibly costing us the playoffs.

In addition, one of the guys at Sawxheads last year looked up the reviews of the orthopedist one of our injured players was seeing, if you remember. I think it was Pedroia. The doctor got three stars our of five, as an average in his reviews. Seems that the Red Sox are rich enough to be able to afford the best doctors in town.

[jung]

Well there is some language in the Basic Agreement for what constitutes an injury so I don't think they can get away with that one.