Ben Cherington

[Gringo]

Can't say I'd be too thrilled with him getting bumped up. He'd be Lucchino's Ball Boy, and just a holdover from a failed system....

 

Lucchino was ready to push Theo overboard back in 2005, but public sentiment jammed up his plans. Now he can exert total control...there is no way the GM and manager are going to have much of a say in anything.

 

Lucchino finally has the power he's wanted.

[Dojji]

Mmh. I'm inclined to agree. We need a more fundamental change to the culture of the team than this, I think The crack is narrow, but it's very deep, You won't fix it with a little epoxy and a fresh coat of paint.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Well gotta get used to it.

 

Red Sox To Name Ben Cherington GM

By Ben Nicholson-Smith [October 13 at 1:33pm CST]

The Red Sox are calling on Theo Epstein's top assistant to restore order in Boston. They have told assistant general manager Ben Cherington that he'll be the team's next GM, according to Yahoo's Tim Brown. Cherington will assume the responsibilities of the GM once the Cubs and Red Sox finalize the arrangement that will send Epstein to Chicago.

 

Cherington started his baseball career with the Guardians in 1998. He joined the Red Sox under Dan Duquette and worked extensively with Epstein, who he considers a mentor.

 

"I learned more [from Epstein] about the game and people and how to get things done and how to do all of that with a sense of humor and compassion," Cherington told me in August. "It has made me a better person and if I’m ever lucky enough to be a GM it’ll make me a much better GM."

 

Cherington has experience as an area scout and has also worked on player acquisitions, arbitration and quantitative analysis. His first job as a general manager will begin with a search for manager Terry Francona's replacement.

 

I have no idea why you guys don't want another Theo at the helms. I guess two World Series titles in an 8 year span isn't successful enough?

 

Theo's philosophy and execution in both drafting and trades were second to none. His only downfall was FA signings, and regardless of those, his other attributes more than made up for the bad signings.

 

Before the 2011 season began, Theo discussed that he thought the team needed more SP depth, and that was one of their biggest weaknesses. If you don't think he attempted every possible angle at addressing that need, you're wrong. By the time all of the injuries hit, and the regulars became ineffective (September), all of the depth had bailed for greener pastures (Millwood) because they had opt-out clauses.

 

Guys like Drake Britton, Felix Doubront, and Stolmy Pimentel took leaps backwards, and so some of the depth that we thought we had going into the season wasn't there in the end.

 

Despite what a lot of people on this website think, this isn't MLB The Show, where Theo can go into the options and turn the "Force Trade" option on. The trade has to be mutually beneficial. He can't go into Create-A-Player and just make someone up out if pixie dust. The talent has to be there. And it wasn't, and he didn't want to get raked over the coals in a trade that would have cost this team the future.

 

Theo was, and is, an elite GM, and we were absolutely lucky and fortunate to have him so long. The fact that we're now given a guy who progressed by watching Theo work and can replicate his philosophy is nothing short of excellent for this organization.

[FredLynn]

Before the 2011 season began, Theo discussed that he thought the team needed more SP depth, and that was one of their biggest weaknesses. If you don't think he attempted every possible angle at addressing that need, you're wrong

 

The bottom line is that he failed to correct the problem. Thats on him. Period.

 

His only downfall was FA signings, and regardless of those, his other attributes more than made up for the bad signings.

 

Interesting opinion. I would not call wasting nearly a third of a billion dollars on FA busts acceptable in any way, regardless of what other areas he did well in. I would grade him a "C" overall as a GM. Sure he brought us two rings (which we would not have won without Manny Ramirez and Josh Beckett, two guys he had little or nothing to do with obtaining), but his waste of money that could have been spent far more wisely outweighs any success he had in other areas....IMO.

[Gringo]

IS he another Theo? CAN he replicate the positive things Theo was able to accomplish? We don't know that. What we DO know is that he's a holdover from a management regime that crashed and burned, and if people are in relative agreement that it's best that Theo move on, then it would seem safe to say that Cherington should as well, or at best maintain his current position.

 

I just think the club needs a GM from outside the organization. But that isn't going to happen. Larry has his Yes Man in Cherington, and that's that.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Before the 2011 season began' date=' Theo discussed that he thought the team needed more SP depth, and that was one of their biggest weaknesses. If you don't think he attempted every possible angle at addressing that need, you're wrong[/i']

 

The bottom line is that he failed to correct the problem. Thats on him. Period.

 

You can't correct a problem when the solution is not available. Can you give me $20 when you only have $10? No. So how can he get pitching depth when there was none available?

 

I swear, some people would complain if we won the World Series in 5 games instead of a sweep.

 

His only downfall was FA signings' date=' and regardless of those, his other attributes more than made up for the bad signings. [/i']

 

Interesting opinion. I would not call wasting nearly a third of a billion dollars on FA busts acceptable in any way, regardless of what other areas he did well in. I would grade him a "C" overall as a GM. Sure he brought us two rings (which we would not have won without Manny Ramirez and Josh Beckett, two guys he had little or nothing to do with obtaining), but his waste of money that could have been spent far more wisely outweighs any success he had in other areas....IMO.

 

Really? A "C"? I mean, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Ortiz, Lester, Buchholz, Bard, Papelbon, Gonzo. And you're giving him a "C" because of some bad FA signings?

 

Wow.

[FredLynn]

You can't correct a problem when the solution is not available. Can you give me $20 when you only have $10? No. So how can he get pitching depth when there was none available?

 

Excuse me, but isn't that his job? To identify and correct personel problems so that the team is competitive? What you have provided is excuses, and frankly, the excuse routine is getting old. I would have liked to see results. If he cannot do his job, its time to get someone who can.

 

Really? A "C"? I mean, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Ortiz, Lester, Buchholz, Bard, Papelbon, Gonzo. And you're giving him a "C" because of some bad FA signings?

 

Wow.

 

You're right: a "C" is being far too generous:

 

Busts

SS Edgar Renteria (2004, 4 years, $40 million)

RHP Matt Clement (2004, 3 years, $25.8 million)

SS Julio Lugo (2006, 4 years, $36 million)

RHP Daisuke Matsuzaka (2006, 6 years, $52 million plus $51 million posting fee)

RHP Brad Penny (2008, 1 year, $5 million)

RHP John Smoltz (2009, 1 year, $5.5 million)

RHP John Lackey (2009, 5 years, $82.5 million)

OF Mike Cameron (2009, 2 years, $15.5 million)

RHP Bobby Jenks (2 years, $12 million)

[FredLynn]

IS he another Theo? CAN he replicate the positive things Theo was able to accomplish? We don't know that. What we DO know is that he's a holdover from a management regime that crashed and burned, and if people are in relative agreement that it's best that Theo move on, then it would seem safe to say that Cherington should as well, or at best maintain his current position.

 

I just think the club needs a GM from outside the organization. But that isn't going to happen. Larry has his Yes Man in Cherington, and that's that.

 

Cherington is a mistake IMO, but I am willing to cut him some slack and give him two years max to produce results. If he starts behaving like his former boss, he is fair game for criticism. It would be far better to completely demolish the management structure and start over with new policies and new attitudes. That won't happen, most likely, but its the smartest thing to do IMO.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You can't correct a problem when the solution is not available. Can you give me $20 when you only have $10? No. So how can he get pitching depth when there was none available?

 

Excuse me, but isn't that his job? To identify and correct personel problems so that the team is competitive? What you have provided is excuses, and frankly, the excuse routine is getting old. I would have liked to see results. If he cannot do his job, its time to get someone who can.

 

Really? A "C"? I mean, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Ortiz, Lester, Buchholz, Bard, Papelbon, Gonzo. And you're giving him a "C" because of some bad FA signings?

 

Wow.

 

You're right: a "C" is being far too generous:

 

Busts

SS Edgar Renteria (2004, 4 years, $40 million)

RHP Matt Clement (2004, 3 years, $25.8 million)

SS Julio Lugo (2006, 4 years, $36 million)

RHP Daisuke Matsuzaka (2006, 6 years, $52 million plus $51 million posting fee)

RHP Brad Penny (2008, 1 year, $5 million)

RHP John Smoltz (2009, 1 year, $5.5 million)

RHP John Lackey (2009, 5 years, $82.5 million)

OF Mike Cameron (2009, 2 years, $15.5 million)

RHP Bobby Jenks (2 years, $12 million)

 

Booms

DH David Ortiz (2003, 1 year, $1.2 million)

INF Bill Mueller (2002, 2 years, $4.5 million)

RHP Keith Foulke (2004, 3 years, $20.2 million)

LHP Hideki Okajima (2006, 2 years, $2.5 million)

RHP Takashi Saito (2009, 1 year, $1.5 million)

3B Adrian Beltre (2010, 1 year, $9 million)

RHP Alfredo Aceves (2011, 1 year, $650,000)

 

Trades

1B Kevin Millar for cash (2003, from Marlins)

RHP Scott Williamson for two prospects (2003, from Reds)

RHP Curt Schilling for four prospects (2003, from Diamondbacks)

INF Mark Bellhorn for one prospect (2003 from Dodgers)

1B Doug Mientkiewicz and SS Orlando Cabrera for SS Nomar Garciaparra and OF Matt Murton (2004 with Twins and Expos)

OF Dave Roberts for OF Henri Stanley (2004 from Dodgers)

OF Jason Bay for OF Manny Ramirez, RHP Craig Hansen and OF Brandon Moss (2008 with Pirates and Dodgers)

SS Alex Gonzales for a prospect (2009 from Reds)

C Jarrod Saltalamacchia for three prospects (2010 from Rangers)

1B Adrian Gonzalez for three prospects (2010 from Padres)

 

Extentions

DH David Ortiz (2004, 2 years, $12.5 million)

2B Dustin Pedroia (2008, 6 years, $40.5 million)

3B Kevin Youkilis (2009, 4 years, $41.13 million)

LHP Jon Lester (2009, 5 years, $30 million)

 

Drafts/IFA

CF Jacoby Ellsbury

2B Dustin Pedroia

3B Kevin Youkilis

SS Jose Iglesias

SP Jon Lester

SP Clay Buchholz

RP Daniel Bard

RP Jonathan Papelbon

 

Yeah. I think a "C" is pretty appropriate

[ORS]

Call me crazy, but I think it's a bit premature to put Jose Iglesias on any kind of list right now, positive or negative. It's great that he can field the SS position at the highest of levels already, but he hasn't proven he can hit well enough to contribute at the MLB level....yet.

[Cocos Disciples]

I hear red font proves your point.

 

Anyway, Theo is one of the best GMs in baseball and the Cubs will greatly benefit from him. I'm excited to see how Cherington does.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Call me crazy' date=' but I think it's a bit premature to put Jose Iglesias on any kind of list right now, positive or negative. It's great that he can field the SS position at the highest of levels already, but he hasn't proven he can hit well enough to contribute at the MLB level....yet.[/quote']

 

Fair enough, you can replace him with Justin Masterson, deal?

[Dojji]

I'll be happy to call for the signing of a perfect GM who never makes mistakes. All you have to do is go find one.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I hear red font proves your point.

 

Anyway, Theo is one of the best GMs in baseball and the Cubs will greatly benefit from him. I'm excited to see how Cherington does.

 

I heard that same thing. Good. Glad my efforts didn't go for nothing.

[FredLynn]

I hear red font proves your point.

 

Anyway, Theo is one of the best GMs in baseball and the Cubs will greatly benefit from him.

 

I guess time will tell about that. His performance here in Boston did not warrant that generous an evaluation. He was a "C" GM IMO...at best. Even had he just saddled us with Lackey and Crawford he would be a "C" GM. He did far worse than just those two.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I guess time will tell about that. His performance here in Boston did not warrant that generous an evaluation. He was a "C" GM IMO...at best. Even had he just saddled us with Lackey and Crawford he would be a "C" GM. He did far worse than just those two.

 

Show me one better GM on a big-market team.

[Dojji]

Yeah, you're going to have to do more than just repeat yourself if you want to convince any of us of that.

 

But, but, he had bad signings and free agent deals!!!!!! Yeah, and so does everyone else. That's why GM's have shelf lives on teams. Doesn't mean a thing.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Yeah, you're going to have to do more than just repeat yourself if you want to convince any of us of that.

 

But, but, he had bad signings and free agent deals!!!!!! Yeah, and so does everyone else. That's why GM's have shelf lives on teams. Doesn't mean a thing.

 

CRACK OPEN THE BUBBLY!!! We agree about something!!!!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[FredLynn]

Show me one better GM on a big-market team.

 

How many times in the last 10 years have the Yankees missed the playoffs? Getting into the playoffs gives a team the chance for a ring; not getting in is failure. Cashman is a better GM than Epstein. Furthermore, I do not agree with your hypothesis that its just big market GMs that should be compared. Beane and Friedman are FAR superior to Epstein. Give those two Epstein's budget and the results would reveal that. Showalter was right earlier this year when he said that Epstein would be nothing in a small market. It wasn't politically correct, but it was factually correct. Too bad he apologized.

[FredLynn]

Yeah, you're going to have to do more than just repeat yourself if you want to convince any of us of that.

 

But, but, he had bad signings and free agent deals!!!!!! Yeah, and so does everyone else. That's why GM's have shelf lives on teams. Doesn't mean a thing.

 

No, there is nothing I can say that will convince you of this. You and Forsythe and a few others here. Thats why they are called opinions, not facts. I gave you the reasoning behind my opinion and you gave me the reasoning behind yours. You will never convince me Epstein is anything but a mediocre GM, and I will never convince you of that either.

[SoxFanForsyth]

How many times in the last 10 years have the Yankees missed the playoffs? Getting into the playoffs gives a team the chance for a ring; not getting in is failure. Cashman is a better GM than Epstein. Furthermore' date=' I do not agree with your hypothesis that its just big market GMs that should be compared. Beane and Friedman are FAR superior to Epstein. Give those two Epstein's budget and the results would reveal that. Showalter was right earlier this year when he said that Epstein would be nothing in a small market. It wasn't politically correct, but it was factually correct. Too bad he apologized.[/quote']

 

Beane and Friedman = top 10 draft picks every year. Protected draft picks. Compensation picks.

 

Every. Single. Year.

 

Small market teams don't make big FA acquisitions because they can't afford them, and thus they don't have the big ticket busts like big market teams do.

 

And are you f***ing kidding me with the Cashman comparison?? You're complaining about Lackey and Crawford, and the FA money??

 

Cashman and the Yankees have outspent Theo and the Red Sox by $671,810,793 since 2004 (including CBT Payments through 2010), and guess what??

 

THE RED SOX HAVE WON MORE WORLD SERIES TITLES!!!!

 

Explain that.

[FredLynn]

Beane and Friedman = top 10 draft picks every year. Protected draft picks. Compensation picks.

 

Every. Single. Year.

 

Small market teams don't make big FA acquisitions because they can't afford them, and thus they don't have the big ticket busts like big market teams do.

 

And are you f***ing kidding me with the Cashman comparison?? You're complaining about Lackey and Crawford, and the FA money??

 

Cashman and the Yankees have outspent Theo and the Red Sox by $671,810,793 since 2004 (including CBT Payments through 2010), and guess what??

 

THE RED SOX HAVE WON MORE WORLD SERIES TITLES!!!!

 

Explain that.

 

NYY record since 2004: 771-525 (.595 ball, or 96 wins season ave)

Boston Red Sox record since 2004: 744-552 (.574 ball or 93 wins per season ave)

 

The Yankees have missed the playoffs once since 2004; we have missed the playoffs three times. Even the Rays have played more playoff games than we have over the past five years. There is no cogent arguement that we have been as successful as the Yankees since Epstein arrived, even though we have two rings to their one. Epstein had little to do with Ramirez and Beckett being on the team, the two key components of both rings.

Friedman and Beane are both far better GMs than Epstein IMO. They have a long track record of developing great pitchers. If you like I can review for you how those staffs have done over the past several years compared to our home grown pitchers. Its not close. With one of our first round picks, Epstein chose Bowden; Friedman chose Price with one of his, for example. The ONLY reason the A's and Rays are not multiple ring winners is the money available to their GMs.

I realize that this logic will not persuade folks like you, and thats fine. Believe what you like. Lets see how he does with the Cubs.

[Palodios]

With one of our first round picks, Epstein chose Bowden; Friedman chose Price with one of his, for example.

 

Are you seriously comparing a number one overall draft pick to a sandwhich round pick? That is a terrible argument. Absolutely terrible.

[ORS]

Are you seriously comparing a number one overall draft pick to a sandwhich round pick? That is a terrible argument. Absolutely terrible.

Yeah, that's pretty bad.

[SoxSport]

Cherington is a Duquette guy. He was hired by Duquette.

I think I posted this elsewhere.

I hope he has better luck with the media than Duquette did.

Dan's sin was he didn't give Gammons the Manny Ramirez' signing story.

That killed him at the Globe.

 

Cherington has some brains--Amherst grad like Duquette.

Also played baseball there. Knows his cyberstats and player development.

 

He has to play ball with the media (that's important to the Sox management),

get a manager who can straighten out Crawford and get rid of the deadwood.

 

He also has to control his tempation to play the Yankee moneyball game

with that big supply of cash this fan-spoiled franchise generates every year.

They need better player development and lower ticket prices.

[ORS]

How many times in the last 10 years have the Yankees missed the playoffs? Getting into the playoffs gives a team the chance for a ring; not getting in is failure. Cashman is a better GM than Epstein. Furthermore' date=' I do not agree with your hypothesis that its just big market GMs that should be compared. Beane and Friedman are FAR superior to Epstein. Give those two Epstein's budget and the results would reveal that. Showalter was right earlier this year when he said that Epstein would be nothing in a small market. It wasn't politically correct, but it was [b']factually[/b] correct. Too bad he apologized.

You just railed a moment ago about the fact vs. opinion situation in this discussion. Are you sure this is the correct description of Showalter's statement?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Saying that Theo wouldn't do well as a small market GM, and then saying his biggest weakness is big ticket FA busts is completely contradictory.

 

Theo is an excellent GM in terms of drafts and trades. He has consistently been stuck with low draft picks, yet has shelled out elite talent. Give him top draft picks, and take out the FA signings, and you think he gets worse???

 

How, exactly, does that make sense?

[FredLynn]

Are you seriously comparing a number one overall draft pick to a sandwhich round pick? That is a terrible argument. Absolutely terrible.

 

 

Bowden was a first round pick, the 47th overall pick, in the 2005 draft. They got Shields in the 8th round, I believe. Friedman is a much better evaluator of talent than Epstein ever was.

 

Michael Bowden

 

 

 

 

Michael Matthew Bowden

 

Position: Pitcher

Bats: Right, Throws: Right

Height: 6' 3", Weight: 215 lb.

 

Born: September 9, 1986 in Winfield, IL (Age 25)

High School: Waubonsie Valley (Aurora, IL)

Drafted by the Boston Red Sox in the 1st round (47th pick) of the 2005 amateur draft.

Signed June 24, 2005. (All Transactions)

 

By the way, Epstein picked Craig Hanson ahead of Bowden that year, at #26. That sure worked out well.

[FredLynn]

You just railed a moment ago about the fact vs. opinion situation in this discussion. Are you sure this is the correct description of Showalter's statement?

 

You are right. That was opinion, not fact.

[FredLynn]

Saying that Theo wouldn't do well as a small market GM, and then saying his biggest weakness is big ticket FA busts is completely contradictory.

 

Theo is an excellent GM in terms of drafts and trades. He has consistently been stuck with low draft picks, yet has shelled out elite talent. Give him top draft picks, and take out the FA signings, and you think he gets worse???

 

How, exactly, does that make sense?

 

The only way Epstein made good for the team is by a combination of his draft choices, trades, and the "finds" he obtained. The problem is that the "finds" are so far outnumbered by his "busts" that it makes his record here ludicrous. Its over an 8:1 dollar ratio in favor of busts. In a smaller market he would not have had the opportunity to get any "finds", or far fewer, and those he thought were finds were likely busts anyway and would bankrupt his team. What exactly has he done for the Red Sox since 2007? Cameron? Lackey? Crawford? Our minor league system? Nope. All of these are in sad shape. Even his prize acquisition, Gonzalez, failed to come through this year against all the good teams except Texas. In short, he has done NOTHING for us lately. Thats why the owners let him leave.