2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[SoxSport]

Realistcally they would want something like Bard' date=' Middlebrooks, Ranuado and Jacobs. I would not deal with the FA like Marcum, Grienki, Cain, Hamels hitting the market.[/quote']

 

 

The Yankees are waiting for Hamels and Cain to hit the market.

[User Name]

Seattle has shown no indication that they actually want to deal Felix. There's a difference between what they "should" do and what they "will" do. Trading for Felix is a daydream.

[a700hitter]

Realistcally they would want something like Bard' date=' Middlebrooks, Ranuado and Jacobs. I would not deal with the FA like Marcum, Grienki, Cain, Hamels hitting the market.[/quote']I think it is likely that Cain and Hammel sign extensions.

[a700hitter]

Jenks is looking like a total zero again in 2012. Thanks Theo. Ben has one more BP slot to fill.

[Station 13]

I think it is likely that Cain and Hammel sign extensions.

 

That doesn't seems so bad. The Sox has almost no shot at handing out another 100M contract anytime soon.

[a700hitter]

That doesn't seems so bad. The Sox has almost no shot at handing out another 100M contract anytime soon.

At least, the Yankees can't get them if they sign extensions.

[a700hitter]

Youks is pretty cheap,$12 mil or so, and is one of the best hitters and first baseman around when healthy. Which is right now. He's blocked at 1B, and he really can't hack it at 3B anymore at 32. That's the feeling I've heard around baseball outside of the Red Sox.

 

I doubt Seattle will get Fielder. He wants to go to a contender.Bard is a top young pitcher who could fit as a starter or closer for a young team. The Mariners have enough young pitching to replace Felix. At this point, Seattle should deal Felix for a few good players.

As much as I would love to add King Felix to the staff, I can't see parting with our only legitimate RH power hitter.

[jacksonianmarch]

Youks is pretty cheap,$12 mil or so, and is one of the best hitters and first baseman around when healthy. Which is right now. He's blocked at 1B, and he really can't hack it at 3B anymore at 32. That's the feeling I've heard around baseball outside of the Red Sox.

 

I doubt Seattle will get Fielder. He wants to go to a contender.Bard is a top young pitcher who could fit as a starter or closer for a young team. The Mariners have enough young pitching to replace Felix. At this point, Seattle should deal Felix for a few good players.

 

That sounds more like a sales pitch than reality. Lets look at what the A's got for Gonzalez and what the Rockies got for Ubaldo, two player who cannot sniff the jock of Felix. Both trading teams got the top 2 prospects in the receiving teams system, and both of those prospects were top 50 caliber league wide. That's a hell of a haul. Now, what you are offering is an arb eligible setup man who hasnt proven he can start at all as a pro and a corner IFer who is coming off his worst statistical season since his first full campaign who is on the wrong side of 30 and has finished each of the last 2 seasons on the bench with injuries. Both guys have their value, but it isnt enough for Felix, not even close, and at least Youkilis wouldnt fit into the plan of a rebuilding team

[jacksonianmarch]

At least one of Cain or Hamels will make it to FA, and I think that would be Hamels. The Phils already have 2 pitchers locked up to 20+ mil per yr contracts and having a third would be pretty problematic for future additions to the club. I actually think both will make it. Cain is second fiddle in SF and the Giants are having trouble gathering the funds for Lincecum, let alone Cain. Plus, the emergence of Baumgartner has made Cain a little less of an emergency. The problem with both of these teams is that they will both be contending at the deadline, so we know a trade isnt in the cards

[Station 13]

it is likely Cain will sign an extension more than Lincecum. Smart GM would sign Cain.

[jacksonianmarch]

Cain may be the better bet for the next 5-6 yrs, but Lincecum is still very young and is the face of the franchise. They lose him, and they will seriously piss off their base

[Station 13]

Cain may be the better bet for the next 5-6 yrs' date=' but Lincecum is still very young and is the face of the franchise. They lose him, and they will seriously piss off their base[/quote']

 

Zito will be gone after next year. So they can sign both, because the fanbase would be outrage like you said.

[jacksonianmarch]

Zito is signed through 2013, so he will still be on the books in the first season of an extension for Cain.

[FredLynn]

The Yankees are waiting for Hamels and Cain to hit the market.

 

The list of good FA pitchers that will become available after next year is long. We ought to be saving our money to sign one or two of them as well.

[FredLynn]

This team didn't underachieve last year because of a "lack of balance". They underachieved because they lacked discipline' date=' a bit of pitching depth (mainly because of Wakefield), and because of the injury to Bucholz.[/quote']

 

The didn't "underachieve" at all. The got what a team like the Red Sox deserved: a third place finish. Thats what happens then your pitching is NINTH in your league of the 14 teams and when your clubhouse is totally out of control. The clubhouse issues will be fixed by the end of the year, but the pitching will take more than a year to fix. There is no single pitcher that we can afford that will change that.

So we will get exactly what we deserve again this year.

[User Name]

The didn't "underachieve" at all. The got what a team like the Red Sox deserved: a third place finish. Thats what happens then your pitching is NINTH in your league of the 14 teams and when your clubhouse is totally out of control. The clubhouse issues will be fixed by the end of the year, but the pitching will take more than a year to fix. There is no single pitcher that we can afford that will change that.

So we will get exactly what we deserve again this year.

 

What they "deserved"? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

A healthy Bucholz and the Red Sox make the playoffs, probably make a run and none of the ensuing marathon of hyperbole happens.

 

By the way, the Red Sox have clubbed their way to the playoffs in previous years (they were 11th in ERA in 2005) yet people didn't come up with this kind of s***.

 

Christ Almighty.

[VA Sox Fan]

Booby Jenks had another back surgery to remove some bone chips. He will be unable to start spring training on time

 

Just read about that in the Globe. No big shocker I suppose.

[FredLynn]

What they "deserved"? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

A healthy Bucholz and the Red Sox make the playoffs, probably make a run and none of the ensuing marathon of hyperbole happens.

 

By the way, the Red Sox have clubbed their way to the playoffs in previous years (they were 11th in ERA in 2005) yet people didn't come up with this kind of s***.

 

Christ Almighty.

 

Oh, I see. You think that teams should plan on being completely healthy for the entire season. Injuries happen to ALL teams. Thats just the way it is. We got injuries and failed to respond, we failed to show up and compensate for those injuries. I am not buying your assertion that we blew it because of injuries; thats a typical copout. We blew it because OUR PITCHING SUCKED.

Oh-and Christ Almighty isn't here........

[FredLynn]

Just read about that in the Globe. No big shocker I suppose.

 

If he has many more chips removed from his back he could end up as spineless as Crawford........

[User Name]

Oh, I see. You think that teams should plan on being completely healthy for the entire season. Injuries happen to ALL teams. Thats just the way it is. We got injuries and failed to respond, we failed to show up and compensate for those injuries. I am not buying your assertion that we blew it because of injuries; thats a typical copout. We blew it because OUR PITCHING SUCKED.

Oh-and Christ Almighty isn't here........

 

Losing 2/5ths of your starting rotation for the season and having another one of them be historically bad is not exactly something you can prepare for. Unless you have unrealistic expectations.

 

No need for (yet more) hyperbole here.

[FredLynn]

Losing 2/5ths of your starting rotation for the season and having another one of them be historically bad is not exactly something you can prepare for. Unless you have unrealistic expectations.

 

No need for (yet more) hyperbole here.

 

We lost 1/5 of our starting rotation for half the year.

I am not counting the loss of Matsusaka for much. His ERA was over 5 while he was in there. Its not like we lost a lot with the guys who replaced him. We lost because our overall pitching sucked: Matsusaka, Wakefield, Miller, Jenks etc etc etc.

Using injuries as an excuse is a copout. The pitching has sucked for three years now. You gonna invoke injuries as the excuse du jour for all three years?

[User Name]

We lost 1/5 of our starting rotation for half the year.

I am not counting the loss of Matsusaka for much. His ERA was over 5 while he was in there. Its not like we lost a lot with the guys who replaced him. We lost because our overall pitching sucked: Matsusaka, Wakefield, Miller, Jenks etc etc etc.

Using injuries as an excuse is a copout. The pitching has sucked for three years now. You gonna invoke injuries as the excuse du jour for all three years?

 

2009 they were 7th in ERA (middling) made the Playoffs. 2010 they were 9th in ERA, but we all know the clusterf*** that season was.

 

2011 they also suffered several injuries. I am not using that as a copout (i mentioned other factors, like lack of discipline, for the decline), meaning this is a strawman (unsurprisingly).

 

There is no denying that injuries were a huge part of the problems for the 2011 Red Sox, but part of that problem is self-inflicted dut to their poor conditioning. However, things like counting Matsuzaka out (who could provide league average innings) and calling a middling pitching staff even with all the injuries "sucking" is hyperbole.

[FredLynn]

2009 they were 7th in ERA (middling) made the Playoffs. 2010 they were 9th in ERA, but we all know the clusterf*** that season was.

 

2011 they also suffered several injuries. I am not using that as a copout (i mentioned other factors, like lack of discipline, for the decline), meaning this is a strawman (unsurprisingly).

 

There is no denying that injuries were a huge part of the problems for the 2011 Red Sox, but part of that problem is self-inflicted dut to their poor conditioning. However, things like counting Matsuzaka out (who could provide league average innings) and calling a middling pitching staff even with all the injuries "sucking" is hyperbole.

 

Our pitching has not really sucked for three year by the standards that would be used by most clubs, but if you are trying to contend for a ring (and not just a playoff spot-which I have already stipulated that I think we will do in 2012), then the team ERA should be better than mediocre. Some clubs get away with mediocre ERAs relative to the other contending teams, but most championship teams are really in the top 3-4 in ERA in their league, and frequently higher. It is true that in most cases pitching and defense wins rings. You can club your way into the playoffs, but as we have seen with our team, you won't get far that way without good pitching. Citing injuries as the reason we have mediocre pitching is a copout and I am not buying it for a minute. ALL teams have to deal with injuries. The loss of Matsusaka and Jenks really mattered very little because the did suck. The loss of CB hurt, and we could have made the playoffs, perhaps, had he been diagnosed and treated in a timely manner, but we would not have gone far. We still ended up with below average pitching.

[User Name]

Playoffs are a crapshoot though. Cliche, but true.

[Cask N Flagon 76]

What they "deserved"? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

A healthy Bucholz and the Red Sox make the playoffs, probably make a run and none of the ensuing marathon of hyperbole happens.

 

By the way, the Red Sox have clubbed their way to the playoffs in previous years (they were 11th in ERA in 2005) yet people didn't come up with this kind of s***.

 

Christ Almighty.

 

 

Completely agree with you User Name. I do believe a healthy Bucholz would have helped

and probably would have stopped or subsided the bleeding.

[Cask N Flagon 76]

I believe that Yes our pitching sucked in that dreadful Sept. But i also believe our situational play was

worse (aka) Crawford booting that single to left in Baltimore.

[iortiz]

I definitely agree. I have posted many times about balancing this team, even if it meant trading elite players for two good players. However, look at the lineup you posted. It is 3 players deep, then you have Youk who can't stay on the field, a rookie, the LVP of the league last year, and then a near--rookie. I prefer not to replace questionmarks in the rotation with question marks in the roster.

 

I would have LOVED to see Buerhle here. I'm definitely with you. But at 15 million? That's big money, and with the group of pitchers available next year, I'd really hesitate on giving it to him. Plus, who knows how much he would have cost to bring to the Red Sox, especially with the collapse last year, and the Marlins seeming content to overbid everyone.

 

Yup, it's a 3 player deep and I'm not comfortable either. But again, IMO you would be more "balanced" with another solid SP than with another slugger.

 

History has showed us that SPs somehow get injuries and/or underperform specially in our top 3. If someone can guarantee me that they will stay healthy, I'm with you, but again, you know our injury track record.

 

Notice that all my argument rest on "they won't go over the cap"

 

On the other hand, solid, healthy and young FA SPs like Buerhle, will/are making those amounts of money. Yes, he could cost us more, but IMO, not that more much. Yes, 2013 FA class will be a better one but guess who is comming off the books... Jenks and D-K. You can use that money in order to bring another solid SP and who knows... maybe and just maybe you won't need to do that if Bard fits well this season regardless you only would need a #5 SP, who can share the load with Lackey.

[VA Sox Fan]

If he has many more chips removed from his back he could end up as spineless as Crawford........

 

Jenks actually looks like he's dropped some weight in the picture that's in the Globe. Crawford isn't spineless, just needs to adjust IMO.

[Elktonnick]

I agree that the Sox are being unrealistic if they beleive they can get throught the year with a pitching staff as shallow as the one the currently have. Lester has to stay healthy but given his body type and medical history who can be sure. Buccholtz's stress fracture what are the chances that may re occur. Beckett always seems one false step away from either a back or ankle injury. Can Aceves continue a whole season at the pace he has pitched etc etc.

[Elktonnick]

Jenks actually looks like he's dropped some weight in the picture that's in the Globe. Crawford isn't spineless' date=' just needs to adjust IMO.[/quote']

 

His medication or batting stance?