2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[jung]

I guess there is no way to really compare them because the Cards got to the WS and the Phils did not so Carpenter ended up with all of those extra innings to build stats. If the rain out had not given the Cards a chance to run Carpenter out there one extra time I am not sure the Cards are the WS Champs and that was the point I was trying to make. Would have been easier to compare the Phils and their trio to Carpenter if they played in different leagues and made it all the way to the WS.

 

Frankly I don't even know what your point is. Both teams had great pitching and relied on it heavily to make the runs they made in the playoffs. If the Phils had made it to the WS and had won it, don't you think we would be singing the praises of one of one or more of those three Phils pitchers? Did pitching not get the Phils as far as they got? Seems to me you are making my point for me cause I don't know what other point you would be trying to make.

[a700hitter]

Saunders Could Land Three-Year Deal

By Zach Links [January 4 at 1:56pm CST]

 

Free agent Joe Saunders is receiving one-year and multi-year offers and a three-year deal for the left-hander is possible, sources tell Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter).

I would not give him a 3 year deal.

[User Name]

There's really not much analysis to be made here: The Phils had the better ace, and the better pitching. The Cards got hot at the right time, and won it all because of the randomness of the playoffs. It is what it is.

[Station 13]

I would not give him a 3 year deal.

 

Left handed Lackey. Good luck with that.

[User Name]

Left handed Lackey. Good luck with that.

 

This is an insult to Lackey, who was a far superior pitcher to Saunders when he reached FA.

[Station 13]

This is an insult to Lackey' date=' who was a far superior pitcher to Saunders when he reached FA.[/quote']

 

Yup, "was". Pretty much same results now.

[User Name]

What i mean is Saunders should be worse. On a one-year deal, he could be palatable as a #5 starter, but a three-year deal? GTFO.

[Station 13]

3 year deal for a non tendered is mind boggling.

[User Name]

If he gets 3/21, my head will explode.

[a700hitter]

The Orioles are rumored to be interested in Saunders. Although he stinks, the Red Sox have some sort of weird kryptonite thing when it comes to soft throwing lefties. If the O's sin him, we will be pulling our hair out at least a few times in 2012.

[a700hitter]

If a slug like Saunders lands a 3 year deal, the Sox had better forget about the cap and abandon the wait and see approach and move on Garza, Oswalt or Kuroda. Otherwise, we will end up trying to put Carlos Silva in the rotation and they'll essentially be flushing their season in the toilet.

[seabeachfred]

Well as I have said before I thought the Sox had entered the trade part of their off season a couple of weeks ago. They don't appear to me to be actively considering any FA deals any longer. That said, I am holding out hope that they find some way to trade salary for salary because I have thought for a long time that this is all they are really willing to do at this point.

 

As for keeping any possibilities open for Wake, I can only assume that the Sox are doing so as some sort of a safety valve to being unable to make any sort of a trade that helps their pitching. However I just don't see that Wake is a safety valve. A guy that is just going to go out there and get flamed is no safety valve at all.

 

As for Tek, now ya' got me. I can't find a rational for Tek regardless of what I do. He can't catch Wake so that isn't it. He can't hit at all. He can't throw anybody out. He is just done. I don't get it. Now as far as why from Tek's perspective all you have to do is look at the amount of money teams toss around these days and it is hard to blame a player for trying to get a slice of that pie regardless of the reality of the situation.

 

I still think there is a way out of the Ortiz arb thing but don't quote me on that because I just don't know if the new arb rules take effect now or mid-season when some of the other new CBA rules are going to be implemented. I believe if the new rules regarding arb are in effect now, they can in fact back out of the arb offer. If I am not mistaken this new rule was more an effort to resolve teams and players making handshake arrangements to void arb offers which has happened. I believe the new rule allows a team to back out and gets rid of the handshake agreements between players and teams. However I do not know if there are strings attached and as mentioned I don't even know if this is one of the rules to be implemented mid-season 2012 or one that was to take effect this off-season.

 

If the Sox are able to back out then I would be a little less harsh in my criticism of the Sox for having offered Ortiz arbitration. If not then it is without question the biggest blunder of the offseason so far. Even if they can back out, it would appear to me that having it hanging out there has still had the same effect on the Sox. It looks to me like they are operating under the assumption that they are going to be stuck with Ortiz and have basically allocated that money away denying them any opportunity to use it elsewhere. I thought it was a terrible move that just could not be rationalized no matter how you tried at the time it was announced and I can't say that it has aged any better.....just a bad bad move.

 

Yes teams make mistakes but this was not a year where the Sox could afford many or any for that matter. Making a $15M mistake when they are clearly treating dimes like they are the size of manhole covers really does put that deal into perspective.

 

Well said Jung. Amazing as it is to say there are posters here and elsewhere who seemed to be more cognizant of the fact that there was no real market for Ortiz' services than Cherington was. Maybe he got that old irritating feeling that if he didn't offer Papi arbitration he would, oh gee, God forbid, wind up in pinstripes. Which was ridiculous because the Yankees were up to their sweatbreads in DH candidates. By using that excuse all I am doing is trying in a left handed way to give Cherries cover because if it wasn't that it was just a plain stupid move. Hopefully after this coming season he will have learned and will not offer him arbitration again. Let Ortiz go wherever he wants; he would have few takers.

[User Name]

Fred, no one here knows the real motives behind offering arb to Ortiz, but assuming incompetence by the FO and better knowledge of these negotiations by you or your crew is awfully presumptuous. This is pure speculation. There are a number of scenarios that could have led to the arb offer, and most of them don't involve "Sacred cows" or "FO incompetence".

 

Please.

[seabeachfred]

Its because his ERA pitching primarily against the very weak hitting ALW (ie the A's and M's) was 4.40 and someone here mentioned that his ERA vs the Yankees is 6. He would be just cannon fodder out there. We don't need more cannon fodder: we already have Miller and now Silva.

Unless, of course, we are clearly in a rebuilding year, Red Sox style, and the owners are already surrendering the season to the better ALE teams.

 

Ok my friend, I can see that. What do you think of Rich Harden? He is the guy I wanted us to get last year and last time I checked he was still out there. I think this guy could be a real surprise if he stays healthy. The guy has good stuff and is very competitive. I would like to see the Red Sox go after him, and in my opinion he would be a very pleasant surprise

[seabeachfred]

Fred, all you need to know is that I've been a fan for 3x as long as you.

 

And stop with the FO is treating Wake and Tek like sacred cows crap. They aren't signed. Until they are your point is 100% hyperbole and not based in reality.

 

And as far as I'm concerned that's great!!!!!! As I've said before I'm a little envious of those like you and others who have been part of this fandom for so long. I wish I had found the Red Sox sooner. I was mostly a NL fan and, sad to say, I rooted against the Sox in the '67, '75 and '86 series and now I feel like kicking myself over that. That post I wrote about the Sox in the 50's and 60's was pretty accurate and I wonder if you were aware of those things happenings or even care since you weren't a fan then either.

 

My only point of disagreement with your post concerned those two has-beens. To me the fact they aren't signed is looked upon by me as something to worry about. Until if and when the book is closed on them once and for all I will be worrying that somehow they will find themselves back on the team......and that must never happen.

[seabeachfred]

I don't know why people are arguing whether "Yawkeyism" applies to this situation. The real point is that both of these guys' date=' especially Wakefield, suck and they should have no place on the Red Sox roster even if they played for free.[/quote']

 

That's the whole point of this 700. They both suck and have nothing to offer the team in the way of talent, and instead of worrying about whether the Red Sox should be putting these two relics back on the team Cherington should be trying to upgrade the pitching before all of the FA types are off the boards-----and, no, I don't think Hi Ho Silva is much of an answer to our pitching woes though I'm sure Queen Juliana over in Virginia is wildly applauding the move since our front office can do no wron.

[jung]

I have not called BC incompetent but this is a board of opinions and in my opinion, offering Arb to Ortiz was a bad move. It does look like they have counted that money as spent or else you would think they would have been more aggressive in their pursuit of FA pitchers. Yes can throw up the notion that they are waiting for the price to drop significantly for the last few pitchers that remain out there in the FA market but does that really make sense. Might the price come down a bit. Yea it might. Given the money being tossed at pitchers does it makes sense that it will be a significant reduction...don't think so.

[User Name]

Larry Lucchino has said repeatedly that if they find a signing that's worth the gamble, they will go over the LT. No need to overthink this. The 3/4 mill they overpaid Ortiz with are not the deciding factor on whether or not they will sign a pitcher. They would have had to go over the LT either way.

[seabeachfred]

Control freak? Tight rear end? Real nice. I am very familiar with who Tom Yawkey was, I've been a Red Sox fan my entire life. Other posters have mentioned how it is difficult to take your posts seriously with your use of ridulous nicknames. But you insist on calling me out. I wasn't responding to you at all. I was responding to a700.

 

You are a curmudgeon and an opinionated *******.

 

Opinionated *******!!!!! Very lady-like on your part. I never got nasty with you so you fired the first broadside in this pissing contest. I will surprise you, though, because I'm not going to retaliate back. Why would I allow a flea to harass the lion in his den. Those who you say cannot take my posts seriously because of the nicknames are being underestimated by you since I get good responses from them whether they agree with me or not.....AND THAT'S JUST THE POINT IN ALL THIS. TALK SOX is a forum where all different sorts of opinions are given and most are welcomed. You seem to always be in a snit if someone says something you don't like, and instead of countering why they might be wrong and weigh in with your take on the matter, instead you decide to get insulting because you really have nothing to add because you mind is vacant and is only programmed to insult.

[seabeachfred]

Please do old man, please do. I'm optimistic and am trying to move forward from a horrible 2011 season. You are paranoid and read more into things than necessary when it comes to the FO etc. I don't find it necessary to share my every thought on every single subject. I don't have diarrhea of the mouth/keyboard like you.

 

I have enjoyed this board for years. Wish I still felt that way.

 

There you go again, trying to tell someone what is necessary or not. For the record, we are all trying to move on from last year's nightmare, but rather than swooping down and kissing the front office's patuna, many of us are critical as to what's happened to the team the past few years just in case you have been in suspended annimation and are expecting improvement in correcting their past mistakes. As for not finding it necessary to share your thoughts I find it very possible that you haven't any real thoughts of your own and instead of having diarrhea of the mouth, you have it in the brain.

 

However, as I told my friend 700 yesterday it is time to just make believe you don't exist so I will not respond to anything you write any more and would appreciate it if you would do the same with me. We don't like each other, don't seem to respect one another, and hold the other in contempt. You see, there is nothing for us to discuss to buzz off and I will gladly to the same.

[seabeachfred]

Nick Cafardo notes that both the Yankees and Red Sox are still in on Kuroda and Oswalt, but both teams are waiting for a big price drop in either of them. He also notes Oswalt would love to pitch for the Cards, but their rotation is set with Wainwright coming back from TJ. Good news for the ALE teams.

 

I also noted that Rich "Eternal Promise" Harden is still a FA. I would like it if the Sox took a flier on him if he's cheap, and deployed him as a reliever/spot starter. His injury history is spotty, but he's worth the gamble.

 

BINGO User, I suggested the same thing in a recent post. I think Harden might just be worth a real gamble because he has good stuff, is competitive and pitched pretty well down the stretch last season after we turned down a chance to get him. He ought not to be that expensive and I would like to see us get someone of substance before they all disappear from the free agent board.

[a700hitter]

BINGO User' date=' I suggested the same thing in a recent post. I think Harden might just be worth a real gamble because he has good stuff, is competitive and pitched pretty well down the stretch last season after we turned down a chance to get him. He ought not to be that expensive and I would like to see us get someone of substance before they all disappear from the free agent board.[/quote']If the Yanks and Sox are waiting for the price to drop on Kuroda and Oswalt, they could be playing a dangerous game. Each is waiting for the other to sign one of the two pitchers with the expectation that the price for the remaining pitcher will fall, because the market will be eliminated. That strategy can fall apart very quickly if another team has an interest in one of those guys and comes in and signs him. That will leave the other one with 2 suitors-- the Sox and the Yankees vying for one pitcher. I think we all know who will win that bidding war.

[jung]

Ortiz arbitration is not a $3/4M mistake in my opinion but what it is or is not will not become clear until these last few pitchers finally get signed by somebody and we either are left recognizing that the Sox were in fact waiting or they get signed by somebody else we are left recognizing that their budget was not as hight this offseason as we may have liked which will finally put to rest the degree to which offering Ortiz arbitration was actually a mistake. I don't think it likely that the price for pitchers is going to fall significantly given the kind of money pitchers are getting these days but it surely might fall some the later into the offseason we get. Everything is just opinion anyway so what does it matter. None of us have careers in sports management but without opinions, its not a board, certainly not one worth looking at or participating in.

[seabeachfred]

Nick Cafardo notes that both the Yankees and Red Sox are still in on Kuroda and Oswalt, but both teams are waiting for a big price drop in either of them. He also notes Oswalt would love to pitch for the Cards, but their rotation is set with Wainwright coming back from TJ. Good news for the ALE teams.

 

I also noted that Rich "Eternal Promise" Harden is still a FA. I would like it if the Sox took a flier on him if he's cheap, and deployed him as a reliever/spot starter. His injury history is spotty, but he's worth the gamble.

 

BINGO User, I suggested the same thing in a recent post. I think Harden might just be worth a real gamble because he has good stuff, is competitive and pitched pretty well down the stretch last season after we turned down a chance to get him. He ought not to be that expensive and I would like to see us get someone of substance before they all disappear from the free agent board.

[User Name]

Then how much do you think they overpaid? (keep in mind the figure isn't even set in stone yet) Even with his diminished market, setting Guerrero's contract as a benchmark, and comparing the production of the two, no way Ortiz wasn't going to get at least 10 mill, and the Sox may have spent around that replacing his production. In the end, they were going to end up busting the cap if they were serious in getting a #4 pitcher, with or without Ortiz.

[Bellhorn04]

BINGO User' date=' I suggested the same thing in a recent post. I think Harden might just be worth a real gamble because he has good stuff, is competitive and pitched pretty well down the stretch last season after we turned down a chance to get him. He ought not to be that expensive and I would like to see us get someone of substance before they all disappear from the free agent board.[/quote']

 

Harden might be worth a shot. But he didn't pitch well at all after we turned him down. He was 3-7 with a 5.57 ERA after July 31, and 1-3 with a 6.98 ERA in September.

[seabeachfred]

I don't get the "recognize the rebuilding year" rethoric and hyperbole. As it is right now' date=' this team is capable of competing. An extra innings-eater would simply ensure a couple of question marks not having to go the Sox way as an obligation.[/quote']

 

We're on the same page again User---I think we have the ability to win the AL East this coming year. Sure, we need good health and solid comebacks from Youkilis and Crawford but that isn't an impossible hope by any means. We do have a solid "Big Three" on the mound if they are all healthy and ready to go, but we do need another quality startin pitcher so we can send four good ones out there and scramble for the fifth. If we could win the division it would give us home field advantate, and as we saw last season once you get into the post-season anything can happen. Unlike my pals Pumpsie and Elktonnick, I do not want to write off this season. I really think we can win.

[seabeachfred]

I agree with you UN?. I am not familiar with his injury issues because I was not paying enough attantion during the 2011 season. But what I saw of him prior showed me enough to believe he could do as you say.

 

 

 

 

 

I think we can fill the bottom of the rotation with just enough to compete. I believe that one of the young arms in the system (possibly Dubraunt) could help. I gues I am more of a glass half full guy than you.

 

One good word about Doubrant. Last September the Red Sox, in the middle of their historic pratfall, went to Yankee Stadium for a three game series with the Yankees. They got creamed in the first game on Saturday, lost the first game Sunday, and went into the

14th inning when Jacoby hit a three run homer but with our team in free fall nothing was guaranteed. Doubrant went out there and got an easy one-two-three inning. You never know about him. He could help us. Give me Harden and Doubrant, good health from the "Big Three" and we can make a go of it. Also, ok, give me a RH hitting OF and another reliever too.

[seabeachfred]

No one liked Bret Myers. What about Wandy Rodriguez?

 

I couldn't tell if my PM got through to you, but thanks my friend.

[jung]

I "think" they should not have offered Ortiz arbitration at all so in that sense they overpaid by $14-$15M.

 

The Sox have made comments that were suggestive of having decided to be somewhat frugal with regard to this year's FA market just about from the first words out of BC's mouth. They approached signings much like they were walking the walk as well as talking the talk. They very likely had good reason to be frugal this year. I have not been criticizing the Sox for approaching this off season with an eye on the pocketbook. They have spend inordinate amounts of money unwisely of late. While heads have rolled that is almost never the only result from having spent vast amounts of money unwisely.

 

I happen to think the Sox have good, sound reasons for being frugal this year so I don't have a problem with it especially if it means I might get to see some of the young guys come up and pitch at some point this year. That does not mean I am categorizing this year as a rebuilding year. Frankly terms like rebuilding or not rebuilding don't mean much to me. At the end of the day the team is what it is, has to strap it up and play the 162. So I don't much pay attention to terms like "rebuilding". So in my view, Ortiz should not have been offered arbitration and all of the money they have spent on him or I guess will be spending on him if the arb offer draws to an ultimate conclusion, should have been spent elsewhere. That may be the difference in the various arguments. I wanted them to spend the money elsewhere meaning I did not want Ortiz back. I have other reasons than just thinking they can't really afford to drop $15M on Ortiz with so many glaring pitching roles to fill but that is one of the reasons.

 

Guys that are making this $3-4M argument appear to be making an argument based on wanting the player and determining whether or not they are overpaying for him. I did not want him back. So it is all money down the drain to me and if in fact we get nobody other than a few more of these guys on the cheap for pitching signings then I think it would be safe to say that the money Ortiz is getting is the money that could have and should have gone to additional pitching.

 

Geez I don't understand why this is so difficult. There have been folks on this board that have not liked the Ortiz arb offer from the very beginning and did not want the player back. I happen to be one of them. By the way, in part this is part of the larger argument about the value of a dedicated DH and the decline in the value of the dedicated DH. In fact Ortiz is exhibit A in that argument. Have we heard of teams lining up panting at the thought of signing Ortiz? No we have not. Since there is no question in my mind that Ortiz is absolutely at the pinnacle within the category of the dedicated DH, the fact that nobody appears to be making a move on him speaks volumes to where the AL is going with regard to the DH role.