2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

I feel like going to the gym now and taking out my anger.

 

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Seems like he's confident in our starting rotation.

[NativeBostonian]

Seems like he's confident in our starting rotation.

 

That makes one of us....

[redsoxfan3]

Seems like he's confident in our starting rotation.

 

Who isn't at this point? We have a lot of potential starters. I am thinking when Buchholz goes down with an injury and when Bard doesn't pan out as a starter that we will have a rotation of Lester, Beckett, Padilla, Silva, and Cook. Doubront might get some starts as well. We have so much depth at this point it is ridiculous. Why not sign Wakefield as an insurance policy? That would only make this offseason that much better. I am pretty confident that we will be as good as the Orioles this year. They will be tough competition.

 

Now on a serious note, I really hope we can get significant production from Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, and Bard in our rotation. I don't think we can afford to have Aceves in the rotation as well. If we have both him and Bard in the rotation, then our bullpen will be weak. We will need one of Doubront, Padilla, Cook, Silva, etc. to fill-in and do somewhat decent. I am actually now looking forward to Dice-K coming back. I hope that he could help this team out in July and be a reliable 5th starter. There is always a chance that we trade for Floyd still, otherwise we are probably stuck looking for a pitcher at the trading deadline.

 

I am not giving up hope on this team by any means. Spring Training hasn't even started yet. If we can hang in there right around second place with the Rays by the All-Star break and trade for another starting pitcher, then I think we will be just fine.

[a700hitter]

Of course Bobby V is happy with the pitching. Did you see the crap staffs that he had with his prior teams. He thinks trhat he died and went to heaven.

[example1]

Cherington doesn't know what he's doing. Valentine doesn't know what he's doing. Ownership are fools. Scott Boras should get his way and the stupid Sox should just give his clients what he's asking for, even while another Boras client is recovering from TJ and costing 10m plus.

 

Ownership may just be saying "make do Ben. You have two very expensive pitchers on the DL and we refuse to pour more money into another one."

[User Name]

Cherington doesn't know what he's doing. Valentine doesn't know what he's doing. Ownership are fools. Scott Boras should get his way and the stupid Sox should just give his clients what he's asking for, even while another Boras client is recovering from TJ and costing 10m plus.

 

Ownership may just be saying "make do Ben. You have two very expensive pitchers on the DL and we refuse to pour more money into another one."

 

You're being authoritative again.

[Elktonnick]

Cherington doesn't know what he's doing. Valentine doesn't know what he's doing. Ownership are fools. Scott Boras should get his way and the stupid Sox should just give his clients what he's asking for, even while another Boras client is recovering from TJ and costing 10m plus.

 

Ownership may just be saying "make do Ben. You have two very expensive pitchers on the DL and we refuse to pour more money into another one."

 

Why spend a few million more to try and make the playoffs when they have already spent 170 million. Instead they commit a miniimum of 12 million to a Dh rather than that money to a starter. Everyone in baseball knows DH's win ball games and starting pitching is over rated.

[redsoxfan3]

Cherington doesn't know what he's doing. Valentine doesn't know what he's doing. Ownership are fools. Scott Boras should get his way and the stupid Sox should just give his clients what he's asking for, even while another Boras client is recovering from TJ and costing 10m plus.

 

Ownership may just be saying "make do Ben. You have two very expensive pitchers on the DL and we refuse to pour more money into another one."

 

I don't really agree with you. You can't really say Valentine and Cherington don't know what they are doing. I am sure they are doing their best with the resources they are given. Bobby V is content with the pitching staff because of the talent of Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz. I think they are confident in what Bard can do. In my opinion if you take the production last year from the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation, we can't do much worse. We do have talent on the team and that will be brought out in Spring Training. I think we will be fine. Maybe Doubront will emerge as the 5th starter. I think Cherington is smart because he doesn't want to play games with Boras. He offered Jackson what he thought he was worth and that is it. If he doesn't accept we move on. Besides, Valentine doesn't have much say in who we get, he just constructs the best lineup with the players he is given. 10 million is a little much for an aging Oswalt who might not even be healthy the entire year. Just because we aren't spending as much as we have in the past does not mean that they don't know what they are doing. They are trying to spend as little as possible. This might not be a great year for us, but because we refrained from spending so much money, it will be good for us in the future.

 

With Bard, Buchholz, Beckett, and Lester in the rotation, all it takes is one of the cheap starting pitcher signings to emerge in the 5th spot to have a decent rotation. I find it quite ironic how some people want us to go out and spend 10 million on a pitcher, but yet still are mad over how much Epstein spent in the past. I agree that Epstein made some mistakes, but I also think there is always a limit on spending. The FO has a different approach this offseason, whether we like it or not, we have to deal with it. There are always options via trade. Floyd is still out there as an option as long as we don't have to trade the farm for him. I know I have criticized Epstein in the past, but I also know why the FO is doing what they are doing. I don't agree with every move, especially the Scutaro one, but you just have to move on and deal with the situation.

[User Name]

I don't really agree with you. You can't really say Valentine and Cherington don't know what they are doing. I am sure they are doing their best with the resources they are given. Bobby V is content with the pitching staff because of the talent of Beckett, Lester, and Buchholz. I think they are confident in what Bard can do. In my opinion if you take the production last year from the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation, we can't do much worse. We do have talent on the team and that will be brought out in Spring Training. I think we will be fine. Maybe Doubront will emerge as the 5th starter. I think Cherington is smart because he doesn't want to play games with Boras. He offered Jackson what he thought he was worth and that is it. If he doesn't accept we move on. Besides, Valentine doesn't have much say in who we get, he just constructs the best lineup with the players he is given. 10 million is a little much for an aging Oswalt who might not even be healthy the entire year. Just because we aren't spending as much as we have in the past does not mean that they don't know what they are doing. They are trying to spend as little as possible. This might not be a great year for us, but because we refrained from spending so much money, it will be good for us in the future.

 

With Bard, Buchholz, Beckett, and Lester in the rotation, all it takes is one of the cheap starting pitcher signings to emerge in the 5th spot to have a decent rotation. I find it quite ironic how some people want us to go out and spend 10 million on a pitcher, but yet still are mad over how much Epstein spent in the past. I agree that Epstein made some mistakes, but I also think there is always a limit on spending. The FO has a different approach this offseason, whether we like it or not, we have to deal with it. There are always options via trade. Floyd is still out there as an option as long as we don't have to trade the farm for him. I know I have criticized Epstein in the past, but I also know why the FO is doing what they are doing. I don't agree with every move, especially the Scutaro one, but you just have to move on and deal with the situation.

 

He was being sarcastic bro. He's making fun of those who seem to think they know more about baseball operations and team construction than the team's FO themselves.

 

As they say: "Monday night quarterbacking is easy"

[a700hitter]

Cherington doesn't know what he's doing. Valentine doesn't know what he's doing. Ownership are fools. Scott Boras should get his way and the stupid Sox should just give his clients what he's asking for, even while another Boras client is recovering from TJ and costing 10m plus.

 

Ownership may just be saying "make do Ben. You have two very expensive pitchers on the DL and we refuse to pour more money into another one."

Why must you make everything a referendum on whether the FO is stupid? We can discuss their moves and the team without discussing their intelligence. The smartest people are not always the best business people.

[jung]

I think we will come out of this offseason saying that the Sox did not want to spend big money on the likes of Jackson or Oswalt, made offers they thought they could make them and have decided to wait and see if somebody distinguishes himself out of all these arms they are bringing to ST. I now don't think they will take a shot at Floyd either unless they can get him under terms ridiculously favorable to them, preferring instead to see where the team is at the trade deadline.

 

So be it if that is the case. I still think the Sox will be fun to watch, will be to an extent competitive if the players extend themselves and will have made progress digging themselves out of a kind of whacky group of contracts that they have been left with from an era of somewhat undisciplined spending. They have spent a good deal of money pursuing that one last deal that would put them over the top the last few years. When you do that and it works you are a hero. When it doesn't work you are stuck with the consequences. The Jenks signing is just a pure waste and the Crawford signing regardless of whether the player did well or not, was a huge overpay that has left them in an ugly spot once Ells hits the FA market. Those are two good examples.

 

There are things I wish they had done differently this off season but they are not things that anybody that has watched the Sox over any period of time would have considered completely unlikely. I guess the degree to which they seem willing to bring in this pitching pot luck group seems un-Sox-like, but that is the other shoe dropping from the really huge expenditures they have made that did not pay off.

 

I do think they are also inclined to look at being "competitive" from the perspective of players being more responsible for their performance on the field both from the perspective of how well they take care of themselves ala' conditioning and then their actual play. I don't think Sox ownership is even interested in building this "paper tiger" projected into the WS from day one. The responsibility is squarely on the shoulders of the players this season more than usual. If they sink into a cesspool of self pity I think you will see the housecleaning of players at the end of 2012 that you might have thought would happen at the end of 2011. If they play solid baseball, doing their best with what they have, then I think ownership will feel better about spending money again going into the 2013 FA season. I don't really like their chances this year but I think I see what they are doing whether I like it or not.

[a700hitter]

I think we will come out of this offseason saying that the Sox did not want to spend big money on the likes of Jackson or Oswalt' date=' made offers they thought they could make them and have decided to wait and see if somebody distinguishes himself out of all these arms they are bringing to ST. [b'] I now don't think they will take a shot at Floyd either unless they can get him under terms ridiculously favorable to them, preferring instead to see where the team is at the trade deadline[/b].

 

So be it if that is the case. I still think the Sox will be fun to watch, will be to an extent competitive if the players extend themselves and will have made progress digging themselves out of a kind of whacky group of contracts that they have been left with from an era of somewhat undisciplined spending. They have spent a good deal of money pursuing that one last deal that would put them over the top the last few years. When you do that and it works you are a hero. When it doesn't work you are stuck with the consequences. The Jenks signing is just a pure waste and the Crawford signing regardless of whether the player did well or not, was a huge overpay that has left them in an ugly spot once Ells hits the FA market. Those are two good examples.

 

There are things I wish they had done differently this off season but they are not things that anybody that has watched the Sox over any period of time would have considered completely unlikely. I guess the degree to which they seem willing to bring in this pitching pot luck group seems un-Sox-like, but that is the other shoe dropping from the really huge expenditures they have made that did not pay off.

 

I do think they are also inclined to look at being "competitive" from the perspective of players being more responsible for their performance on the field both from the perspective of how well they take care of themselves ala' conditioning and then their actual play. I don't think Sox ownership is even interested in building this "paper tiger" projected into the WS from day one. The responsibility is squarely on the shoulders of the players this season more than usual. If they sink into a cesspool of self pity I think you will see the housecleaning of players at the end of 2012 that you might have thought would happen at the end of 2011. If they play solid baseball, doing their best with what they have, then I think ownership will feel better about spending money again going into the 2013 FA season. I don't really like their chances this year but I think I see what they are doing whether I like it or not.

It is always difficult to pick up a productive starter at the trading deadline. The price in terms of prospects and talents is usually disproportionate to the 2 months of service being purchased. If they go to a second wild card team, it will be even more difficult because several more team will consider themselves as contenders and there will be more buyers than sellers.

[FredLynn]

As to the state of the team right now, EVERYONE who has half a brain, including posters here and on other board, including sports writers, and INCLUDING OUR OWNERS, GM, AND MANAGER, know that our pitching is weak and could use improvement. The owners have simply decided to turn off the money spigot (and hopefully stay under the cap), so Ben Cherington has no money with which to obtain another good SP, which EVERYONE knows we need. I don't expect him to be honest about this. Does anyone here really expect him to say to the beat writers that gee, we could sure use Oswalt or Jackson, but we just don't have the money to buy them? Come on. By the same token does anyone really expect Valentine, who is not stupid, to admit publicly that the team as currently constructed is defective and is a couple of pieces away from being a serious contender? Of course not. He CAN'T say that. We are not getting another SP; what you see is what you get. And when one or more of our three SP goes down, we will be seeing lots of the likes of Germano, Cook, Maine, Silva, and maybe Padilla (he is about to be arrested for failure to pay child support for his 10th kid). With those guys on the mound no lead will be safe; no number of runs will be enough. As Bill Belichick says, it is what it is.

[User Name]

We are not getting another SP; what you see is what you get.

 

Speculation.

[FredLynn]

Speculation.

 

Yup. It is. I admit it. Our GM said it too. Frankly, I hope is true and that as a result we stay under the cap in preparation for cleaning house this year.

[User Name]

Yup. It is. I admit it. Our GM said it too. Frankly' date=' I hope is true and that as a result we stay under the cap in preparation for cleaning house this year.[/quote']

 

Notice that i didn't touch any other part of your post because mostly i agree.

 

The thing is, that if they're preparing to stay under the cap, then waiting and seeing what they have and IF they're in the hunt, then getting a pitcher at midseason with minimal cap impact makes much more sense.

 

It may piss people off, but it would be the right thing to do.

[Bellhorn04]

Yup. It is. I admit it. Our GM said it too. Frankly' date=' I hope is true and that as a result we stay under the cap in preparation for cleaning house this year.[/quote']

 

By cleaning house what do you mean?

[iortiz]

Yup. It is. I admit it. Our GM said it too. Frankly' date=' I hope is true and that as a result we stay under the cap in preparation for cleaning house this year.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't like it but would make sense. On the other hand if we go like this and we are already over the cap, I'll be pissed off.

[User Name]

I wouldn't like it but would make sense. On the other hand if we go like this and we are already over the cap' date=' I'll be pissed off.[/quote']

 

And no way to get clues from the media either. They're all over the f***ing place.

[Palodios]

Cherington doesn't know what he's doing. Valentine doesn't know what he's doing. Ownership are fools. Scott Boras should get his way and the stupid Sox should just give his clients what he's asking for, even while another Boras client is recovering from TJ and costing 10m plus.

 

Ownership may just be saying "make do Ben. You have two very expensive pitchers on the DL and we refuse to pour more money into another one."

 

I understand the reluctance to avoid Wilson/Darvish/Buerhle. But they have no excuse to pinch pennies on a one year contract when they traded away the team's starting shortstop. If they need money, they can settle Theo's contract for financial considerations, or cut a deal with Ortiz.

 

I understand the need to stick to a budget, but holding out on a crucial piece of the team to save 2% of the current payroll is nonsense. The Red Sox are losing the advantage of being able to overpay players in the draft-- where is that money going, exactly?

[User Name]

The Theo compensation issue resolving itself may be exactly what they're waiting for .

 

Depending on how much money they get (and they WILL get money) their offer to either Jackson or Oswalt could increase substantially.

[FredLynn]

By cleaning house what do you mean?

 

I mean getting rid of the relics on the team, Wakefield and Varitek. I mean cleaning up the clubhouse and getting good personalities in there to police the misfits. And I mean allowing some of the bad contracts Epstein saddled us with to expire, all in preparation for making a real run next year.

[iortiz]

By cleaning house what do you mean?

 

Well, you won't see Jenks, D-K, Papi (likely), and probably several of those dumpster diving signings, regardless you will have more flexibility in your payroll to play with (LT).

[a700hitter]

I understand the reluctance to avoid Wilson/Darvish/Buerhle. But they have no excuse to pinch pennies on a one year contract when they traded away the team's starting shortstop. If they need money, they can settle Theo's contract for financial considerations, or cut a deal with Ortiz.

 

I understand the need to stick to a budget, but holding out on a crucial piece of the team to save 2% of the current payroll is nonsense. The Red Sox are losing the advantage of being able to overpay players in the draft-- where is that money going, exactly?

I agree. Such an approach is penny-wise and pound foolish. One more pitcher makes this a very strong team. Without that additional piece, they will be rolling the dice that a lot of things will go right. If those things don't go right and the team misses the playoffs for a 3rd straight season, it will damage the franchise. They have created this tremendous brand that has excellence as one of its hallmarks. Not making the playoffs three years in a row would hurt the brand.

[iortiz]

I understand the reluctance to avoid Wilson/Darvish/Buerhle. But they have no excuse to pinch pennies on a one year contract when they traded away the team's starting shortstop. If they need money' date=' they can settle Theo's contract for financial considerations, or cut a deal with Ortiz. [/b']

 

I understand the need to stick to a budget, but holding out on a crucial piece of the team to save 2% of the current payroll is nonsense. The Red Sox are losing the advantage of being able to overpay players in the draft-- where is that money going, exactly?

 

Bingo.

 

I have said this over and over again. Yes, This ain't over but, If we go like this and over the cap, will be unacceptable.

 

Frankly, I do not expect that much for Theo, besides, Ben just said on Weei that Theo's comp. is not a priority.

[Palodios]

The thing is' date=' that if they're preparing to stay under the cap, then waiting and seeing what they have and IF they're in the hunt, then getting a pitcher at midseason with minimal cap impact makes much more sense.[/quote']

 

The reason why this concerns me is because they need more to start the season. I think you understand that I'm not one of the impatient posters here, but it makes more sense to get someone now then the trade deadline for several reasons. The prospect cost is higher in June for trades, and Oswalt/Jackson won't even cost prospects. Their best option this summer for a trade will probably be a salary dump situation, and that's very expensive too.

 

And you know what? There is a huge group of guys that aren't going to be ready early season who will either heal, or step up to the majors. I don't ever remember this much midseason potential-- they have guys who can cover every position. Even if not all of these guys step up, there is a ton of depth that will arrive around the trade deadline, and besides Wilson, they all have potential to perform in a big way: Lavarnway/Middlebrooks/Kalish/Iglesias/Jenks/Dice-k/Wilson.

 

It just makes more sense to start well, and add from your team's depth later.

[User Name]

The reason why this concerns me is because they need more to start the season. I think you understand that I'm not one of the impatient posters here, but it makes more sense to get someone now then the trade deadline for several reasons. The prospect cost is higher in June for trades, and Oswalt/Jackson won't even cost prospects. Their best option this summer for a trade will probably be a salary dump situation, and that's very expensive too.

 

And you know what? There is a huge group of guys that aren't going to be ready early season who will either heal, or step up to the majors. I don't ever remember this much midseason potential-- they have guys who can cover every position. Even if not all of these guys step up, there is a ton of depth that will arrive around the trade deadline, and besides Wilson, they all have potential to perform in a big way: Lavarnway/Middlebrooks/Kalish/Iglesias/Jenks/Dice-k/Wilson.

 

It just makes more sense to start well, and add from your team's depth later.

 

Not if they're trying to stay under the cap, which was my point.

 

Remember that the impact from a player on the cap if he's acquired mid-season is pro-rated for the rest of the season.

[iortiz]

If they wanted stay under the cap, still they could release Ortiz and bring a SP. Apparently, they chose the opposite strategy (keep Ortiz). We'll see if it work it out.

[Palodios]

Not if they're trying to stay under the cap, which was my point.

 

Remember that the impact from a player on the cap if he's acquired mid-season is pro-rated for the rest of the season.

 

If they want to win, they're going to have to break the cap. It is as simple as that.

 

Their best bet is to continue just breaking it slightly. They've been over it by 5-10 million a year, and it only costs them 2-5 million. In the general scheme of things, that is not a big deal-- especially when we're talking about adding a one-year contract to put it there.