2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

SFF and I will run the next audit. My guess is that there will be some internal controls comments.

I'll buy off SFF with some Red Sox tickets.

[example1]

Melancon is not Bard. Anyone thinking he is Bard will be sadly mistaken. He's a kid with a good fastball and a plus curve. I am intrigued to see how he is going to fare when the lights are brightest. He seemed to shy away in NY' date=' granted, he was a rookie. We'll see how he feels when he has to face Cano with a 1 run lead in the 8th[/quote']

 

Does anyone else remember the arguments 3 months ago that Bard was incapable of being a good closer. He was a headcase. Melancon was a closer. If there was legitimacy to Bard's "headcaseness" (which I don't buy, but many others here did) then there is likely legitimacy to Melancon's "experience" which could mitiagate the obvious difference in their abilities a bit.

 

Speaking of obvious differences in their abilities, why is it akin to blind optimism to assume that Bard's skills will be a nice addition to the rotation, if it is impossible to replace his awesomeness throwing the ball out of the pen?

[User Name]

Does anyone else remember the arguments 3 months ago that Bard was incapable of being a good closer. He was a headcase. Melancon was a closer. If there was legitimacy to Bard's "headcaseness" (which I don't buy, but many others here did) then there is likely legitimacy to Melancon's "experience" which could mitiagate the obvious difference in their abilities a bit.

 

Speaking of obvious differences in their abilities, why is it akin to blind optimism to assume that Bard's skills will be a nice addition to the rotation, if it is impossible to replace his awesomeness throwing the ball out of the pen?

 

Great post.

[User Name]

Do you really think Benny Boy has the balls to do such a thing? I really believe this guy is risk adverse' date=' to quote my pal Elktonnick. It's a good idea, though. At least we'd learn two things. One if the front office will finally put [b']their money where their mouth is,[/b] and, two, whether Oswalt is really adamant about not pitching either in the AL East and the AL in general.

 

Funny you say that. Because this a 180 million dollar team.

[example1]

Well we agree. The only point of contention is that the Red Sox have no depth to make up for one or more of their starters going down. !5 day DL can be at least three starts. Statistically the club whose openning day rotation makes the most starts has the greater probability of making the playoffs. The Red Sox have no margin for error. While three starts may not be much but there will be other times that pitchers will miss starts without going on the DL. By the way hangnails and blisters are serious injuries to pitchers and can cause them to miss a lot of innings. Toe injuries likewise can cause a pitcher serious discomfort especially if it is on his pushoff foot. Any of these can alter delivery potentially leading to more serious arm injury or simple ineffectiveness.

 

Yes they do! That's the point. You get a margain for error when you have multiple really good SPs and the league's best offense an dmultiple gold-glovers. You just do. The team everyone is s***ing on is the team that was the best in baseball for 120 games last season... even WHILE Buchholz was down, and Youkilis was down.

 

They don't have an infinately deep margain for error. Nobody does.

[seabeachfred]

What? Someone thinking the three of them can hold together for a whole season is optimistic' date=' but in no way idiotic. Lester (post 2007) had pretty much been the picture of health, Buchh's back issue was his first significant injury (and it was a stress fracture). The real wild card is Beckett. But it's not far-fetched or stupid idea at all.[/quote']

 

User-----I said last night that in my opinion to do not have a lot of margin for error this coming season and if that was true anywhere it is with our "Big Three" on the mound. They have to stay healthy all season, go deep in most of their games and win big. If that doesn't happen we most likely would be in deep do-do, and if we don't get that pitcher that most of us know we need someone has to step up and pull a Garcia for us---and we have to find No. 5 who can at least pitch around 500. A lot of ifs there but that's where we stand right now from where I'm sitting.

 

It would also be nice that other teams in our division have injury problems instead of us, though let me be clear that I wish no ill will on any player on any other team, just if injuries to occur this time it bypasses us. We have a plethora of injuries the past two seasons, and 2009 wasn't a bed of roses either.

[a700hitter]

Does anyone else remember the arguments 3 months ago that Bard was incapable of being a good closer. He was a headcase. Melancon was a closer. If there was legitimacy to Bard's "headcaseness" (which I don't buy, but many others here did) then there is likely legitimacy to Melancon's "experience" which could mitiagate the obvious difference in their abilities a bit.

 

Speaking of obvious differences in their abilities, why is it akin to blind optimism to assume that Bard's skills will be a nice addition to the rotation, if it is impossible to replace his awesomeness throwing the ball out of the pen?

No one disputed Bard's awesomeness as an 8th inning guy which was his role in 2011. Moving him out of that role results in a huge hole in the pen. Melancon has not done anything close to what Bard has done as the Sox 8th inning guy.

[example1]

No one disputed Bard's awesomeness as an 8th inning guy which was his role in 2011. Moving him out of that role results in a huge hole in the pen. Melancon has not done anything close to what Bard has done as the Sox 8th inning guy.

 

Yet if Bard is able to turn into a good SP then it is a net gain, particularly if the Sox can extend him to a team friendly deal.

 

I think there are too many possibilities to have a definitive view on this yet. Bard throws 100 mph. He has an elite arm. He's young and has proven durable. He has the potential to not only be a decent SP but to quickly be part of the "big 4". Clearly the Sox scouting/coaching staff thinks this is possible.

 

I'm actually of the belief that Bard is a good pitcher in the 8th, 9th or 1st inning. He was put on this earth to pitch.

[seabeachfred]

ooohhhh my apologies Fred I thought that you were 77. My point about the age was because I believe that people of your age deserve respect.

 

No real problem my friend, but I wonder if I will have to wait until I am 77 (Lord willing) to see the Red Sox win another World Series? That's six years down the road and seems like a long time. Of course, being a relative new convert to RSN (2000), I can emphatize with all those who waited a helluva long time, like a decade or two or three, for the Sox to finally bring it all home.

 

Notice I said Lord willing? There's an old saying that if you want God to laugh, just tell HIM your plans. One day at a time iortiz. That's the ticket.

[iortiz]

Does anyone else remember the arguments 3 months ago that Bard was incapable of being a good closer. He was a headcase. Melancon was a closer. If there was legitimacy to Bard's "headcaseness" (which I don't buy, but many others here did) then there is likely legitimacy to Melancon's "experience" which could mitiagate the obvious difference in their abilities a bit.

 

Speaking of obvious differences in their abilities, why is it akin to blind optimism to assume that Bard's skills will be a nice addition to the rotation, if it is impossible to replace his awesomeness throwing the ball out of the pen?

 

The margin of error that we won't be able to handle is if we lose one of those three (injuries/underperform). That scenario will be the Armageddon for this team if we go like this, regardless 4-5 are already huge ?/BP is a mystery without Aceves and Bard.

 

On the other hand, if you bring another SP, you will likely be able to balance that loss. Hell, why leave the door wide open for huge risks if you can fix it with a simple move.

[SoxSport]

Why pack it in if you could score a $1M payday?

 

Right. They keep coming back for the easy money until nobody wants them.

[example1]

The margin of error that we won't be able to handle is if we lose one of those three (injuries/underperform). That scenario will be the Armageddon for this team if we go like this, regardless 4-5 are already huge ?/BP mystery without Aceves and Bard.

 

On the other hand, if you bring another SP, you will likely be able to balance that loss. Hell, why leave the door wide open for huge risks if you can fix it with a simple move.

 

We can just disagree. I don't think their margain for error is razor thin and I don't think losing one of the top three is "armageddon" because other teams will deal with injuries/underperformance too. We act as if the Red Sox are the only team with any question marks. It's absurd.

[Elktonnick]

Yes they do! That's the point. You get a margain for error when you have multiple really good SPs and the league's best offense an dmultiple gold-glovers. You just do. The team everyone is s***ing on is the team that was the best in baseball for 120 games last season... even WHILE Buchholz was down, and Youkilis was down.

 

They don't have an infinately deep margain for error. Nobody does.

 

Virtually every analyst make the same case. There is no pitching depth. The right side of the infield is solid. The left side is questionable. Youk will play no more than 120 games if that. We don't have a ML ready starting SS who can play an entire season. Please name me one team that has been successful platooning its SS. 120 games isn't a full season. Baseball history is replete with teams that were great for 3/4 of a season and fell flat.

[mvp 78]

We can just disagree. I don't think their margain for error is razor thin and I don't think losing one of the top three is "armageddon" because other teams will deal with injuries/underperformance too. We act as if the Red Sox are the only team with any question marks. It's absurd.

 

Lost Clay last year and it still went down to the 162nd game.

[Elktonnick]

Even if Bard is lights out as a starter (which is questionable). They won't let him go long in games nor will they allow him to piitch more than 150 innings.

[iortiz]

No real problem my friend, but I wonder if I will have to wait until I am 77 (Lord willing) to see the Red Sox win another World Series? That's six years down the road and seems like a long time. Of course, being a relative new convert to RSN (2000), I can emphatize with all those who waited a helluva long time, like a decade or two or three, for the Sox to finally bring it all home.

 

Notice I said Lord willing? There's an old saying that if you want God to laugh, just tell HIM your plans. One day at a time iortiz. That's the ticket.

 

Thanks for the advise Fred . You'll make 100 and more Fred, you'll see.

 

This team is a move away to be a very competitive team next year, and being considered a solid/serious 1-4 in the AL. Right now, unfortunately I just do not see that, if we go like this of course. I really hope that E1 is right this time and I'm wrong.

[seabeachfred]

Melancon is not Bard. Anyone thinking he is Bard will be sadly mistaken. He's a kid with a good fastball and a plus curve. I am intrigued to see how he is going to fare when the lights are brightest. He seemed to shy away in NY' date=' granted, he was a rookie. We'll see how he feels when he has to face Cano with a 1 run lead in the 8th[/quote']

 

Well there's a way around that Jacko.....We must be three runs ahead when Cano comes up there in the 8th inning with Mel on the mound, and be sure we get two insurance runs in the ninth to give us a cushion.

[Station 13]

Even if Bard is lights out as a starter (which is questionable). They won't let him go long in games nor will they allow him to piitch more than 150 innings.

 

If he is good, why stop him?

[a700hitter]

Yet if Bard is able to turn into a good SP then it is a net gain, particularly if the Sox can extend him to a team friendly deal.

 

I think there are too many possibilities to have a definitive view on this yet. Bard throws 100 mph. He has an elite arm. He's young and has proven durable. He has the potential to not only be a decent SP but to quickly be part of the "big 4". Clearly the Sox scouting/coaching staff thinks this is possible.

 

I'm actually of the belief that Bard is a good pitcher in the 8th, 9th or 1st inning. He was put on this earth to pitch.

It is irrelevant to to 2012 pitching staff whether he gets a team friendly deal extending beyond 2012. So you are saying definitively that the net improvement in the starting pitching due to Bard moving into the rotation will exceed the negative effect of him being moved from his spot as the 8th inning guy? And do you think that difference will be significant?

[Elktonnick]

Lost Clay last year and it still went down to the 162nd game.

 

They will be facing tougher competition this year. Their major opposition has improved significantly while they haven't. No 4 or 5 starter, no ML ready starting SS who can play an entire season. Question marks at third and left. Their catcher is mediocre. But we have said all this before.

[iortiz]

We can just disagree. I don't think their margain for error is razor thin and I don't think losing one of the top three is "armageddon" because other teams will deal with injuries/underperformance too. We act as if the Red Sox are the only team with any question marks. It's absurd.

 

All teams have ?, but right now I see more question marks in our team than DET, Tex, NY, LAA and probably TB. As I said, Hopefully you are right E1.

[Elktonnick]

If he is good' date=' why stop him?[/quote']

 

If he is good they don't want to blow out his arm by overworking him his first year the way teams such as the Orioles have done with virtually ever one of their most promising young starters for the past fifteen years. That's why

[a700hitter]

We haven't improved. What we have added and lost doesn't add up to any talent improvement, so we are relying on better health to make the improvement to a playoff team, but the competition has made significant improvements in their rosters.

[RedSoxNC84]

One correction: Make that 'groin' strain. Everything else looks achievable.

 

Nah, I'm pretty sure it was right, haha.

 

Well it's their opinion.....which people are entitled to.

 

Basically said the same thing I did with my post.

 

You got it all big guy!!!!! Corny? maybe. Silly? Possibly. But a funny piece of work? Absolutely and, believe it or not, I'm sitting here trying to type while I'm LMFAO!!!!!!!!

 

We need more of this RC84 from all of us around here. I like to go off the wall at times but I try to add a little humor and corn if I can. We're here to have fun and join up with people who share love for a particular beloved team, a ball club that it took me most of my life to realize that this was the team for me. Keep them coming. I'm still laughing up a storm.

 

At the very least it could be a refreshing break from gripping at each other's throats.

 

I'd rather Miller than Cooke or Padilla. He's bearable as 6th - 7th SP.

 

As much as I hate that idea, I don't hate it. Miller isn't a starter though, he's a middle reliever. Maybe, and I'm REALLY stretching this when I say maybe, he could be a decent swingman. He's much better off in the bullpen than in the rotation, even if he's the 10th starter in terms of depth.

 

Hell' date=' what about McClellan? The guy was the balls in 2010 out of the pen and showed he could at least hold his own in the rotation last yr.[/quote']

 

I was under the impression that McClellan had an NTC he refused to waive.. Or was that another STL pitcher?

 

And IMHO' date=' they'll probably have to fight TOR tooth and nail to finish 3rd.[/quote']

 

Toronto is not even getting close to 3rd. I don't care how much better their bullpen is. Bautista can hit 100 homeruns instead of 50 something and they'll still be 4th in the ALE.

 

 

--In addition to all of this.. I have been wondering, what kind of nicknames would Fred have given us if we had signed guys like Colon, Street, Jakubausakassaks or whatever the hell his name is, Pujols, etc.

 

Maybe I'm just being juvenile here, but I think it could be entertaining.

[iortiz]

We haven't improved. What we have added and lost doesn't add up to any talent improvement' date=' so we are relying on better health to make the improvement to a playoff team, but the competition has made significant improvements in their rosters.[/quote']

 

LAA won 86 games last year, right? How many games could they win this year in a fair scenario? 92-93?

[jacksonianmarch]

If he is good' date=' why stop him?[/quote']

 

because he'll become Phil Hughes and end up with a wrecked shoulder.

[jacksonianmarch]

We haven't improved. What we have added and lost doesn't add up to any talent improvement' date=' so we are relying on better health to make the improvement to a playoff team, but the competition has made significant improvements in their rosters.[/quote']

 

Lost:

Papelbon

Lackey (for 2012)

Scutaro

Lowrie

Weiland

Varitek

Wakefield

Wheeler

 

Gained:

Ross

Sweeney

Bailey

Melancon

Padilla

Cook

Maine

Mortensen

 

It's not a major downgrade. I think the biggest issue is that the biggest problems from 2010 (4 and 5 spots in the rotation) were not addressed externally.

[iortiz]

We are a move away Jacko...

[RedSoxNC84]

More "worst case scenario"

 

Franklin Morales turns out to be Mranklin Forales, he borrowed his friends Identity in order to enter the major leagues when in actuality he is significantly older.

 

Despite being on the bench, Peter Gammons will demand that John Lackey earn the Cy Young vote, for his masterful achievement of a 0.00 ERA.

 

Junichi Tazawa will become a permanent piece in the rotation, ordinary fans do not even realize that he is not Daisuke Matsuzaka.

 

Clay Buchholz breaks his entire spinal column in half, he still manages to pitch 150 innings despite only being a torso on the mound.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury tests positive for being a robot.

 

... I think this is getting a little out of hand..

[iortiz]

More "worst case scenario"

 

Franklin Morales turns out to be Mranklin Forales, he borrowed his friends Identity in order to enter the major leagues when in actuality he is significantly older.

 

Despite being on the bench, Peter Gammons will demand that John Lackey earn the Cy Young vote, for his masterful achievement of a 0.00 ERA.

 

Junichi Tazawa will become a permanent piece in the rotation, ordinary fans do not even realize that he is not Daisuke Matsuzaka.

 

Clay Buchholz breaks his entire spinal column in half, he still manages to pitch 150 innings despite only being a torso on the mound.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury tests positive for being a robot.

 

... I think this is getting a little out of hand..