2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[a700hitter]

Fair enough.

 

On the other hand, some still saying, be more patience. Yup, it is not over yet. They are totally right, but we are just pointing out the signs and how things are going on, that's all, no big deal to me.

It's definitely not over, but I think the success of the offseason and the upcoming season rides heavily on getting a starting pitcher.

[iortiz]

It's definitely not over' date=' but I think the success of the offseason and the upcoming season rides heavily on getting a starting pitcher.[/quote']

 

Yup, until Jackson/Oswalt are not signed somewhere else, I have hopes. Keeping my fingers crossed.

[seabeachfred]

Don't let me bring you down. They should be still hanging in there until July when you make your trip to see the Yankees. I'm looking forward to the season. I always do. I will go to 1 weekend series in every month except September. However' date=' I have to be honest about what I think of the roster so far. The FO really hasn't done much positive and they have made a number of slip ups that have lots of people shaking their heads even very positive enthusiastic guys like Palodios.[/quote']

 

Then I suppose the Red Sox will still be in the money when I go to Chi Town to see our team play the Cubs in June....is that right 700 Hitter???? Look I understand how some of our colleagues get angry and out of sorts when some of the rest of us weigh in with some negative thoughts about the way things have been going this off season, but some realism and honesty shouldn't hurt. What we've done is give ourselves so little margin for error that one major injury to our pitching staff or one key player going on the shelf for a long period of time could kill our chances of making the playoffs this season, let alone that seemingly disappearing dream of winning the AL East.

 

Apparently you live in Boston or close by to be able to go to Fenway every month. Good for you. I have to limit myself to two Red Sox Destination trips a year, though if we got into the ALCS I would make it three with two shakes of a monkey's ass. I wonder if anybody on this board plans to go to Chicago in June? I've never met any original posters on this board in person; I think it would add to my trip if I could.

[seabeachfred]

Frankly I don't care much about the offseasons rating. Last year a700 was doing backflips with the offseason and it didn't matter. I'm not disappointed that they didn't resign papelbon to that absurd contract. I'm happy they got Melancon for the next few years. I think they were a very good team before and remain a very good team now. But I'm allowed to think that because my valuation of the team isn't linked solely to their final record at the end of last year.

 

Let me be clear on something EX1. I agree we could have a very good team this year. However, because we haven't addressed some serious needs in the rotation department and at shortstop we have left ourselves with little margin for error. In my opinion if one of our key pitchers goes down for any length of period, if we lose a key bullpen reliever, or if one of our key regulars goes on the shelf, we could be in serious trouble. We need to stay healthy this season and we need the players to have solid seasons. We cannot afford "off years" from four or five of our players if we want to make it to the playoffs.

[a700hitter]

Then I suppose the Red Sox will still be in the money when I go to Chi Town to see our team play the Cubs in June....is that right 700 Hitter???? Look I understand how some of our colleagues get angry and out of sorts when some of the rest of us weigh in with some negative thoughts about the way things have been going this off season, but some realism and honesty shouldn't hurt. What we've done is give ourselves so little margin for error that one major injury to our pitching staff or one key player going on the shelf for a long period of time could kill our chances of making the playoffs this season, let alone that seemingly disappearing dream of winning the AL East.

 

Apparently you live in Boston or close by to be able to go to Fenway every month. Good for you. I have to limit myself to two Red Sox Destination trips a year, though if we got into the ALCS I would make it three with two shakes of a monkey's ass. I wonder if anybody on this board plans to go to Chicago in June? I've never met any original posters on this board in person; I think it would add to my trip if I could.

You are right Fred. Without landing another starter, the Sox margin for error such as injury or underperformance will be very thin.

 

I live on Long Island, but my daughter is living in Boston. It's about a 3 1/2 hour drive. I try to get up to see her once a month, especially during baseball season. She often accuses me of seeing her only because I am going to Red Sox games.

[seabeachfred]

I think that we are missing the point here. Right now' date=' all we can do is to emit a forecast/opinion about the team and the league. The same happened last year and the year before etc etc. The outcome can take a looot of different directions, and that (outcome vs plan), is another kind of discussion/debate.[/quote']

 

Well you certainly haven't missed the point iortiz and neither have some of the rest of us here, but where the heat suddenly rises is that the differences in where we currently stand is so diverse and the gulf so wide that it results in arguments, more tension and some rancor. We just see things differently but we can disagree without going off the deep end at an argument we don't agree with. Right now a lot of us here do not think we are any better than we were when the season ended; some think we are actually worse while others think last September was an aberation and the real Red Sox will stand up and stand tall this season. Diversity of opinion should be welcomed, not denounced.

[User Name]

The problem is, that regurgitating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it any less or more true. And also, trying to rate an incomplete team is an exercise in futility.

 

They could still get another starter via trade or signing, and even if they don't, they could use the money left over from the Scutaro trade to acquire a pitcher during the season. Plenty of options left.

[seabeachfred]

Ha. I find you reaction humorous.

 

I'm holding others to the standards they so haughtily held others to not more than a few months ago. If results are all that matters then results are all that matters. Apparently they are not all that matters. Apparently, how the team looks on paper matters too. As does what the media says.

 

I'm doing all of this tongue in cheek, as I'm sure a700 has picked up on, but I do think it is important that people realize when they make bold proclaimations like "results are all that matters" that will be the standard they are evaluated against moving forward. WHen people are ridiculed for saying the 2011 team was "good" and someone comes along with a "results" perspective and says they sucked, and imply that anything other than a results perspective is faulty, they will be called out when they use something other than a "results" perspective...

 

Even if it is in the "fun" of hot-stove discussion.

 

I will drop it because clearly it got under plenty of peoples skins and I strive to be easy to get along with...

 

EX1, you called me out a couple of times and you didn't get under my skin. I appreciated your taking the time to try with your take on things to try "and set me straight" whether I agreed with your opinion of that given issue or not. Many of us came to this board (I did after a three year absence) because I heard that differences of opinion and red hot arguments were welcomed and encouraged. This was not the case with Sawheads as you might have heard. When the team collapsed last September as some of us predicted the other camp went ballistic, took their marbles like the pack of crybabies they were and started a new board. Good riddance. We're better off with gone now.

 

This board isn't like that. To me we have posters who are willing to go out on a limb and be willing to take the heat when we screw up and that's the way it should be. This Hot Stove League baseball and differing opinions should be welcomed and encouraged. I know of no one here who is predicting our season is already in the toilet; we I've been hearing from some of the worried crowd is that we need to do more to get up to speed. No one however, is writing the season off in January.

[User Name]

You can. It just means some people might not take your opinions seriously because you want to have it both ways. A700 sees no problem with this. Plenty of other people do. It's inconsistent and, coming only a few months after "results are all that matters", "you don't understand the business world" etc., it rings both hollow and hypocritical.

 

If results are all that matters then wait for the damn results before casting judgment. Otherwise it is not true that results are all that matters. Results are all that matters, only when it is convenient to switch your measuring stick.

 

It's easy for them to gang up on you trying to prove you wrong, but the truth is that you are absolutely spot-on with this post.

[seabeachfred]

You are right Fred. Without landing another starter, the Sox margin for error such as injury or underperformance will be very thin.

 

I live on Long Island, but my daughter is living in Boston. It's about a 3 1/2 hour drive. I try to get up to see her once a month, especially during baseball season. She often accuses me of seeing her only because I am going to Red Sox games.

 

Well I hope you did a better job with your daughter than I did with mine when it comes to rooting for a baseball team. My daughter is an Angels Fan and so is my wife, my son-in-law, his three brothers and three sisters-in-law, his mom and dad, and six of the grandkids including my now six year old grandaughter. Only my three year old grandson stands in the way of making me totally isolated at 18-1.. If I can bring Kyle along I will only be out-gunned 17-2. Pretty bad, huh?:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Frankly E1 that is ridiculous. It is a sports board. Everything posted here is opinion and everybody knows it. If somebody wants to post up their opinion about where this is going that is their business. It is not like anything posted here is going to actually have an impact on the result.

 

As for 700, my memory might be faulty on this, but I think people called him on the Crawford thing. He admitted that he liked the deal when it happened and admitted that it did not work out like he had hoped. Using something like his opinion on the Crawford deal to try to shout the guy down now is ******** E1. Its ********.

 

Give it a break for crying out loud. The worse thing a board can do is to try to censor spirited discussion and eliminate opinion.

 

lol but the logic level is almost unbearable.

[example1]

EX1, you called me out a couple of times and you didn't get under my skin. I appreciated your taking the time to try with your take on things to try "and set me straight" whether I agreed with your opinion of that given issue or not. Many of us came to this board (I did after a three year absence) because I heard that differences of opinion and red hot arguments were welcomed and encouraged. This was not the case with Sawheads as you might have heard. When the team collapsed last September as some of us predicted the other camp went ballistic, took their marbles like the pack of crybabies they were and started a new board. Good riddance. We're better off with gone now.

 

This board isn't like that. To me we have posters who are willing to go out on a limb and be willing to take the heat when we screw up and that's the way it should be. This Hot Stove League baseball and differing opinions should be welcomed and encouraged. I know of no one here who is predicting our season is already in the toilet; we I've been hearing from some of the worried crowd is that we need to do more to get up to speed. No one however, is writing the season off in January.

 

I don't see people writing off the season, but I see people getting close to writing off the GM with some pretty harsh language. I think it is hasty and really unnecessary, and more of a reflection on those posters' reactivity than on anything the GM has done.

 

I would just like to see people assume that more of what the FO does is intentional rather than stupid or poorly thought-out. If we started from the assumption that they know what they are doing the discussion could be pretty intelligent because there are plenty of intelliegent possibilities to follow for each decision. As it has been lately, it occasionally makes a brief appearance in the intelligent category only to plummet back into mind-numbing accusations to the ownership or FO or GM.

 

Does the board really assume that they traded Scutaro without realizing that he's their starting SS or that the other options aren't as good as him? Do we really think that they said "okay" to trading Scutaro only to then remember that they have to get a pitcher? I mean, let's assume they've looked a couple miles down the road here, maybe?

 

And I don't take it as a reason to assume that they don't look down the road because they have finished 3rd the past few seasons. That's not a logical jump. It makes no sense.

[iortiz]

I don't see people writing off the season, but I see people getting close to writing off the GM with some pretty harsh language. I think it is hasty and really unnecessary, and more of a reflection on those posters' reactivity than on anything the GM has done.

 

I would just like to see people assume that more of what the FO does is intentional rather than stupid or poorly thought-out. If we started from the assumption that they know what they are doing the discussion could be pretty intelligent because there are plenty of intelliegent possibilities to follow for each decision. As it has been lately, it occasionally makes a brief appearance in the intelligent category only to plummet back into mind-numbing accusations to the ownership or FO or GM.

 

Does the board really assume that they traded Scutaro without realizing that he's their starting SS or that the other options aren't as good as him? Do we really think that they said "okay" to trading Scutaro only to then remember that they have to get a pitcher? I mean, let's assume they've looked a couple miles down the road here, maybe?

 

And I don't take it as a reason to assume that they don't look down the road because they have finished 3rd the past few seasons. That's not a logical jump. It makes no sense.

 

Do you want that we agree in everything they do/say? Is that what you are trying to say? Can't we judge them? Are they the untouchables or something?

Sorry, but I'm not agree.

[User Name]

That's not what he's saying at all. That's a cop-out to avoid the reality of his statement.

[iortiz]

I'm asking him.

[User Name]

Hey you answer for a700 all the time. Don't be a hypocrite brah.

[Elktonnick]

I don't see people writing off the season, but I see people getting close to writing off the GM with some pretty harsh language. I think it is hasty and really unnecessary, and more of a reflection on those posters' reactivity than on anything the GM has done.

 

I would just like to see people assume that more of what the FO does is intentional rather than stupid or poorly thought-out. If we started from the assumption that they know what they are doing the discussion could be pretty intelligent because there are plenty of intelliegent possibilities to follow for each decision. As it has been lately, it occasionally makes a brief appearance in the intelligent category only to plummet back into mind-numbing accusations to the ownership or FO or GM.

 

Does the board really assume that they traded Scutaro without realizing that he's their starting SS or that the other options aren't as good as him? Do we really think that they said "okay" to trading Scutaro only to then remember that they have to get a pitcher? I mean, let's assume they've looked a couple miles down the road here, maybe?

 

And I don't take it as a reason to assume that they don't look down the road because they have finished 3rd the past few seasons. That's not a logical jump. It makes no sense.

 

It wouldn't have been the first time nor the last time that otherwise very intelligent and smart people made an error in judgment. Smart people do dumb things all the time. I know because I made a very good living because they do.

[iortiz]

0 hypocrite, I'm just asking.

[Divinity]

You are right Fred. Without landing another starter, the Sox margin for error such as injury or underperformance will be very thin.

 

I live on Long Island, but my daughter is living in Boston. It's about a 3 1/2 hour drive. I try to get up to see her once a month, especially during baseball season. She often accuses me of seeing her only because I am going to Red Sox games.

 

Where on Long Island? I've lived on Long Island my whole life.

[User Name]

Well you don't like it when people "limit your ability to emit an opinion". I gave my opinion, as i am entitled to due to the nature of a message board, or does it only work when the "censorship" happens towards you? @iortiz

[iortiz]

I'm not limiting your opinion at all. Feel free to write whatever you want, brah.

[User Name]

Thank you brah.

[RedSoxNC84]

I believe it was Jack Nicholson that once said.. "Can't we all just get along?"

 

I get there are differences of opinion, some more based in fact than others, some people here don't like others attitudes.. You gotta remember though, we're on the same f***ing team. This is Red Sox Nation. It's not some petty ******** arguments. This is all semantics, everyone wants to be right and they want the other side to acknowledge they are right. The name calling, the straw man claims back and forth. It's ridiculous really.

 

The fact remains that we are all Red Sox fans, we love the same team, so there's no need to be gripping at each others throats over some stupid s*** thats get said on a forum. Those are words. WORDS.

 

For real though people, if any of you are too shortsighted to see the ins and outs of others opinions, and possibly even respect them. What are you doing here?

[iortiz]

I believe it was Jack Nicholson that once said.. "Can't we all just get along?"

 

I get there are differences of opinion, some more based in fact than others, some people here don't like others attitudes.. You gotta remember though, we're on the same f***ing team. This is Red Sox Nation. It's not some petty ******** arguments. This is all semantics, everyone wants to be right and they want the other side to acknowledge they are right. The name calling, the straw man claims back and forth. It's ridiculous really.

 

The fact remains that we are all Red Sox fans, we love the same team, so there's no need to be gripping at each others throats over some stupid s*** thats get said on a forum. Those are words. WORDS.

 

For real though people, if any of you are too shortsighted to see the ins and outs of others opinions, and possibly even respect them. What are you doing here?

As my friend Spud says, Excellent f***ing post.

 

Back on topic.

 

IMO and reading the last about Oswalt/Jackson I see at this point 33% (equal) of possibilities that STL, Tex, BOS grab one of these guys.

[mvp 78]

Well I hope you did a better job with your daughter than I did with mine when it comes to rooting for a baseball team. My daughter is an Angels Fan and so is my wife' date=' my son-in-law, his three brothers and three sisters-in-law, his mom and dad, and six of the grandkids including my now six year old grandaughter. Only my three year old grandson stands in the way of making me totally isolated at 18-1.. If I can bring Kyle along I will only be out-gunned 17-2. Pretty bad, huh?:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown[/quote']

 

Well, in all fairness to your daughter, she grew up living in CA with a dad who wasn't a Sox fan when she was young. Why would she become a Sox fan just because her dad did when she was in her 20s?

[RedSoxNC84]

Let me add that none of that is meant as a call out or personal attack towards anyone, I'd just like to see some objective discussion on the game, and if someone opinion differs, it's okay to debate.. but agreeing to disagree isn't always a bad thing.

 

I've been reading this forum for a long time before I decided to join, because it seems like a decent community, and I've been wanting to fit in somewhere that I can discuss my love for the game and this team.

 

Anyhow, I don't mean to offend, I just get a little heated sometimes.

 

Okay, I'm done, now back to the topic haha

[mvp 78]

Also, "Red Sox Nation" is complete ********.

[iortiz]

Why MVP ? :dunno:

[mvp 78]

It's a meaningless marketing gimmick and bears no resemblance to my fanhood.

[User Name]

Let me add that none of that is meant as a call out or personal attack towards anyone, I'd just like to see some objective discussion on the game, and if someone opinion differs, it's okay to debate.. but agreeing to disagree isn't always a bad thing.

 

I've been reading this forum for a long time before I decided to join, because it seems like a decent community, and I've been wanting to fit in somewhere that I can discuss my love for the game and this team.

 

Anyhow, I don't mean to offend, I just get a little heated sometimes.

 

Okay, I'm done, now back to the topic haha

 

What i don't understand is the need to absolutely s*** on the team, it's management, and the Front Office constantly, even though the final construction of the team is yet to be determined?

 

As E1 said, holding judgement, just like agreeing to disagree, is not going to kill anyone.

 

MVP, for example, disagrees with a lot of the things the FO does, but he points out to them in a manner that doesn't make other people want to rip their nails out. It's not impossible.