2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[jacksonianmarch]

I find it interesting that you guys are satisfied with your pen. Last yr, you had Aceves, Bard, and Papelbon in the pen and it broke down late in the season. As it stands right now, Papelbon is in Philly and Aceves and Bard are in the rotation. You downgraded you setup and closer combo and have no replacement for your 2011 pen MVP in Aceves.

[VA Sox Fan]

Here you go VA. From page 366 of this thread:

 

For the record, I think the team is now headed in the right direction. They have fired an incompetent manager who lost control of the clubhouse and replaced him with a disciplinarian who will fix that problem. They got rid of the GM who put them in the hole they are now in, and they have so far held on to the resources that will probably make them a very real contender next year.

Does that sound pessimistic to everyone here-or does it sound like a difference of opinion about long term strategy for success of the team?

 

Ready to admit you are wrong yet?

 

 

My bad. I am wrong, I apologize.

[VA Sox Fan]

Sometimes with you its either black or white with other posters. There are the bad guys and there are the good guys here.

It actually a spectrum, not all or nothing.

 

Nice observation. I like to think of it more as annoying guys and non-annoying guys. It's all a matter of opinion. Our opinions differ.

[a700hitter]

There are supposed to be two wild cards.

I don't think the 2 wild card thing starts in 2012.

[a700hitter]

The negativity problem on this board has more to do with the filter through which some posters posts are read. If people would address themselves to what the posters actually say rather than to who they think the poster is or what the poster is about, we'd find that there is a lot of agreement on the issues. I tried to point that out a few days ago. No one wants to break camp with this roster. The great majority of us think we need another pitcher. Some people are optimistic about this prospect. Others are not. Hey, people are different, but on the intellectual level our analysis all comes out in the same place.

[example1]

I don't think the 2 wild card thing starts in 2012.

 

Last I heard that was still Seligs plan. Have you seen otherwise?

[example1]

I find it interesting that you guys are satisfied with your pen. Last yr' date=' you had Aceves, Bard, and Papelbon in the pen and it broke down late in the season. As it stands right now, Papelbon is in Philly and Aceves and Bard are in the rotation. You downgraded you setup and closer combo and have no replacement for your 2011 pen MVP in Aceves.[/quote']

 

Everything broke down late last season. Some of it was expected (pen) some of it hard to understand (rotation). I think the best antidote is for the starters to do more later in games.

 

I can't say I'm totally sold on the pen but we will see.

[FredLynn]

I find it interesting that you guys are satisfied with your pen. Last yr' date=' you had Aceves, Bard, and Papelbon in the pen and it broke down late in the season. As it stands right now, Papelbon is in Philly and Aceves and Bard are in the rotation. You downgraded you setup and closer combo and have no replacement for your 2011 pen MVP in Aceves.[/quote']

 

Who are you referrring to? I think we actually reached a consensus here a while ago that we need another quality SP and a good arm or two to bolster the pen if we expect to compete for a ring this year.

[FredLynn]

Everything broke down late last season. Some of it was expected (pen) some of it hard to understand (rotation). I think the best antidote is for the starters to do more later in games.

 

I can't say I'm totally sold on the pen but we will see.

 

Dan Wheeler would help. I cannot believe he isn't signed yet. He was very effective last year, though it isn't pretty out there with him, what with the shaking of the glove before every pitch.

[FredLynn]

My bad. I am wrong' date=' I apologize.[/quote']

 

No problem.

What I wrote as a strategic plan is still my opinion of what should occur: remain under the cap this year and fix things, wait for $$ to come off the books next year and secure a primo SP or two. Don't give up any significant prospects or players this year except as part of the plan to compete for a ring next year.

So far it looks very much like what they are doing.

[User Name]

Who are you referrring to? I think we actually reached a consensus here a while ago that we need another quality SP and a good arm or two to bolster the pen if we expect to compete for a ring this year.

 

That's the textbook definition of a strawman. No one here has said they're content with the bullpen. He's likely just looking to add fuel to the fire.

[seabeachfred]

Some of the new people on this board are almost unbearable.

 

I am a realist, and I dont get 1/10 of the complaints these guys get.

 

I wish almost all of the sawxheads or whatever they were would go back to their s***** forum. The reason why their forum sucked was because they were idiots, now they are littering this forum.

 

Go away, you contribute nothing and all you do is piss everyone off.

 

You get 1/10 of the complaints but you just dont like the way they are phrased. Let me put some realistic colors in your paintbox. First of all, right now we are weaker than we were at the end of last season. Capice??? We have always needed a RH hitting outfielder and now we need one more than ever since Crawford is down and maybe out for awhile. Capice???? Darling Darnell is NOT the answer, or are you going to tell me that he is because you are not that naive to believe that. Varitek and Wakefield were invited to ST, a ridiculous move since neither is able to help us anymore and all they will do is distract a team that has enough distractions to worry about. Capice???? We have needed a No. 4 quality starter since the end of the season and we still don't have one. Capice????

 

You say you're a realist, well read what is in the threads instead of the nicknames which seem to upset you and a couple of your pals so end. I'll tell you this, if you disagree with anything Is've written in my post you are no realist at all.

[User Name]

Fred, Varitek and Wakefield were not invited to ST. Wakefield was never even mentioned and Cherington shot down the Varitek rumor. Don't make s*** up.

[seabeachfred]

Some of you people do your absolute best to turn this board as unreadable as possible. Shut the f*** up about your stupid squabbles and let's talk baseball.

 

We do talk baseball on here User, but since you are one of those who accepts things as they are we are in disagreement because you don't like what you hear. As I just wrote to one poster, we need a No. 4 pitcher and have since the end of the season. We don't have that one yet and I'm beginning to doubt that the money will be expended for such a pitcher. We need a RH hitting outfielder now more than ever because Darling Darnell McDonald is inadequate--and that's putting it mildly. We still need another decent arm in the bullpen. Ortiz should have never been given arbitration since it has tied our hands, and that is one reason I am so down on Cherington. These items are facts, not supposition and some of us have been talking like this for the past few months.

 

The fact is you and some o thers dont like what we have to say, not taking into consideration that what we're saying is true. Wake up---our team has needs that need to be addressed and they haven't been. It is now half past January and were still waiting for compensation for Epstein's departure. I mean how can anybody be satisfield with what's going on around the Red Sox?

[VA Sox Fan]

Who are you referrring to? I think we actually reached a consensus here a while ago that we need another quality SP and a good arm or two to bolster the pen if we expect to compete for a ring this year.

 

I think he is noticing all the focus/discussion on a SP. Everyone has touched on both though. Personally, I feel better about our BP than our SP but hope all will be addressed. There are definitely concerns about both.

[seabeachfred]

And they're still pretty f***ing good on paper.

 

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but just respect others who don't believe that....and I am one of them. We are not still pretty f***ing good on paper, like it or not. We need that No. 4 starter, and Miller, Cook, Germano, Silva and Haeger ain't that animal if youll pardon the slang. If Crawford is not ready by opening day, a good possibility, I believe strongly that McDonald and Aviles are not the answer to left field. We need another strong arm in the bullpen. Face it EX1, you don't like hearing this, but some of us see t hese needs as examples why we are not that good on paper.

 

I have always maintained that if we get that pitcher, RH hitting outfieldeer and decent reliever we could make a run at the division this season. I have ALWAYS said that; look p my posts if you doubt it. However, until we make those additions we are not only not ready to win the division but most likely to compete with Toronto for third place, a spot we've got ourselves accustomed to the past two seasons (fact). I don't like writing this but I see it that way. Sorry if you disagree. Now tell me why I'm wrong without the personal attacks.

[FredLynn]

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but just respect others who don't believe that....and I am one of them. We are not still pretty f***ing good on paper, like it or not. We need that No. 4 starter, and Miller, Cook, Germano, Silva and Haeger ain't that animal if youll pardon the slang. If Crawford is not ready by opening day, a good possibility, I believe strongly that McDonald and Aviles are not the answer to left field. We need another strong arm in the bullpen. Face it EX1, you don't like hearing this, but some of us see t hese needs as examples why we are not that good on paper.

 

I have always maintained that if we get that pitcher, RH hitting outfieldeer and decent reliever we could make a run at the division this season. I have ALWAYS said that; look p my posts if you doubt it. However, until we make those additions we are not only not ready to win the division but most likely to compete with Toronto for third place, a spot we've got ourselves accustomed to the past two seasons (fact). I don't like writing this but I see it that way. Sorry if you disagree. Now tell me why I'm wrong without the personal attacks.

 

I think we are good enough to compete for a playoff spot right now-just because I think we will be able to bash our way in, perhaps. There will be one more spot available too. Not saying the playoffs are a sure thing, but maybe 50-50 as things now stand.

I don't think our top three can stay healthy all year, not all of them. And behind them is an untested SP or two and the bargain basement dregs.

It could go the other way too, if things stay the same. We could easily sink into competing for third place with the Blue Jays. I think that scenario is just as likely as us making the playoffs, as things now stand.

The lack of news is refreshing IMO, and I know that business plan is not popular nowadays. I want to see this team get its act together this year, along with its resources. For me, that would spell success.

[seabeachfred]

There are supposed to be two wild cards.

 

Also, why is it likely that the Sox top three will falter but the Blue Jays and/or Rays staffs are assumed to be as good or better than last year? James Shields has a career year and we all prepare for more of the same. Beckett does too and we assume it's a fluke, even though most objective (non-red sox) observers would prefer Beckett on the mound.

 

Who do the Blue Jays have that gets you so confident they could overtake the Sox even with a season ending injury to Lester? I just don't see it. The Rays have a very good club but even they will need big performances to keep up with a team like the Sox, with or without Sox injuries. That could absolutely happen but I see no reason to think other teams can just skate to 94 wins but the sox need luck.

 

If the sox need luck then so does everybody else.

 

I think its a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence

 

Some of us don't give a s*** what's on the other side of the fence, we are only concerned with what's on our side of the fence. Sure, maybe Silva or Germano or Cook or Haeger or Miller could suddenly start pitching winning baseball, maybe two of them could do what Garcia andColon did for the Yankees last y ear, but would you bet your house or even your garage on that. Do you think McDonald is a quality ML outfielder for a title contending team. Do you think Aviles or Sweeney are? Get real!!!!!! We all want the Red Sox to win but some of us see holes that others don't, and, by the way, this is a forum where opinions differ and should be respected. Some of you spend an inordinate amount of time getting a red ass from the nicknames but brush off the personal attacks that some of you throw around. Respect is a two way street. I respect your right to your opinions, you should respect o thers that differ from yours.

 

And one last word about some of you who hammer away at the Sawxheads Board. It was the total reluctance of the pollyannas over there to admit they were totally wrong about what was going down last season that resulted in a split. Those here who post there called it almost to a tee; the others left to form their own echo chamber. It working well for us there. Now let's see why some of you don't think we need a No. 4 starter better than what we have, why McDonald will be just fine in LF, why our bullpen is top notch solid.

[Bellhorn04]

I think we are good enough to compete for a playoff spot right now-just because I think we will be able to bash our way in' date=' perhaps. [b']There will be one more spot available too.[/b] Not saying the playoffs are a sure thing, but maybe 50-50 as things now stand.

 

At this point the correct wording is 'there may be one more spot available'. There's a committee made up of MLB & MLBPA reps who have until March 1 to decide if the new format goes into effect for 2012.

[User Name]

Fred, you sound like a spoiled, ugly sixteen year-old rich girl whining because her daddy got her a Jaguar instead of a porsche. Everyone here knows the team's needs, but there's a difference between discussing the needs and whining. You're whining.

 

It's not that i don't want to read what you have to say, but whatever good things your opinions may have are mired in annoying whining and stupid nicknames.

 

Let it be said, that i haven't advocated for any of you to leave the board, so don't include me, as i said before, in your squabbles.

[iortiz]

There are supposed to be two wild cards.

 

Also, why is it likely that the Sox top three will falter but the Blue Jays and/or Rays staffs are assumed to be as good or better than last year? James Shields has a career year and we all prepare for more of the same. Beckett does too and we assume it's a fluke, even though most objective (non-red sox) observers would prefer Beckett on the mound.

 

Who do the Blue Jays have that gets you so confident they could overtake the Sox even with a season ending injury to Lester? I just don't see it. The Rays have a very good club but even they will need big performances to keep up with a team like the Sox, with or without Sox injuries. That could absolutely happen but I see no reason to think other teams can just skate to 94 wins but the sox need luck.

 

If the sox need luck then so does everybody else.

 

I think its a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence

 

Well, the last thing I heard was that the 2 wild cards will be in effect until 2013. If I'm wrong (I wish), We definitely will have better chances to make the POs.

 

I'm not sure how good/bad are their physical conditioning and injury track record in their rotations in those team. I know our story reason why I put that situation as a possibility. As you said, If we lose Lester or goes to DL for a long period of time and if we go like this (with a ? In our #4-5) and if TOR/WS/TB don't suffer a major injury/loss issue, I see very probable that they finish above us next season. Sure, out there are a lot of possibilities too but that situation would definetely be a red flag in our team.

[User Name]

Toronto has less pitching and a weaker offense than the Red Sox. The White Sox are rebuilding and lost Mark Buehrle, traded Carlos Quentin and their closer Sergio Santos.

 

How are either of those team a bet to be better than the Sox in 2012?

[iortiz]

In the situation I just rest.

[User Name]

What i mean is, that even if the Sox have a major injury to their pitching, it's still highly unlikely that either of those vastly inferior teams manage a better record than the Sox. Specially the White Sox, who flat out suck

[jung]

I don't think either the WS or the Jays are better than the Sox or even equal to the Sox at this point. I still do think where the rubber meets the road is not the marginal differences between teams but in the marginal difference between results and what they mean for the post season.

 

As I posted earlier the difference between going home and going on seems paper thin to me. 98+ wins likely wins a division. 95 wins likely gets you into the post season. 90 wins and you are likely going home.

 

In my view any team that can win 90 of 162 is a pretty darned good team. This is starting to remind m a little bit of the NFL where it is not unusual any longer for 10 win teams that do not win their division to be going home regardless of the fact that 10-6 is a darned good NFL season.

 

The real problem for me at this point is that the Sox do not look to me like one of those 98+ or 95 win teams. While I do not think teams like the WS or Jays are the equal of the Sox, I do think as currently configured those teams will steal more games from the Sox than they have in the past and make it harder for the Sox to get to something like 95 wins. The Rangers and Angels will likely pound their division rivals more this year than last. The Yankees look like the division leader in the East.

 

The Sox don't look like a 95 win team to me and I don't even think the much sought #4 pitcher gets them over the hump. Granted I am basing much of this on what the team did last year as configured and what it looks like this year as configured AND then compared to the competition it will face this year.

 

Also as I have stated before I discount the end of season mess as some sort of anomaly that should be discounted. You are what you are. The Sox won what they won and lost what they lost.

 

So the arguments/discussions are valid in my view with each side able to make a good case. But when I look at it from the perspective of wins I have a harder time thinking the Sox can get over the hump.

[jacksonianmarch]

That's the textbook definition of a strawman. No one here has said they're content with the bullpen. He's likely just looking to add fuel to the fire.

 

Lack of bitching on the board equals being content. Since the bailey trade, I haven't heard too many people complaining about the pen, even though, as it currently stands, it's seen a significant downturn

[iortiz]

Fred, you sound like a spoiled, ugly sixteen year-old rich girl whining because her daddy got her a Jaguar instead of a porsche. Everyone here knows the team's needs, but there's a difference between discussing the needs and whining. You're whining.

 

It's not that i don't want to read what you have to say, but whatever good things your opinions may have are mired in annoying whining and stupid nicknames.

 

Nahhh He is not whining, he is talking about baseball. He is emitting an opinion based on his large experience and of course the way he sees the game. He doesn't insult other poster. IMO he is a funny guy; the nicknames are funny to me, no big deal. We might agree or disagree with his opinion, but IMO some posters have crossed the respect line with him and his crew.

 

Let it be said, that i haven't advocated for any of you to leave the board, so don't include me, as i said before, in your squabbles.

 

I like SCM33, I often agree with him but I'm not with him on this either.

 

As I said is time to move on and leave this in the past. Lets talk about baseball.

 

BTW Good point about the White Sox. Maybe the Guardians will be better than them.

[User Name]

You want more bitching? You's trollin'.

[User Name]

Nahhh He is not whining' date=' he is talking about baseball. He is emitting an opinion based on his large experience and of course the way he sees the game. He doesn't insult other poster. IMO he is a funny guy; the nicknames are funny to me, not big deal. We might agree or disagree with his opinion, but IMO some posters have crossed the respect line with him and his crew.[/quote']

 

I'm not going to get into an argument about this. The point is that if what he does pisses off a lot of people and it doesn't stop, then "posters crossing the line" is what happens.

[iortiz]

What i mean is' date=' that even if the Sox have a major injury to their pitching, it's still highly unlikely that either of those vastly inferior teams manage a better record than the Sox. Specially the White Sox, who flat out suck[/quote']

 

For the record, As I said, We are a better team than them right now in paper. Maybe you are right, even if the Sox have a major injury to their pitching, it's still unlikely that either of those vastly inferior teams manage a better record than the Sox, Maybe no, But I do not see this highly unlikely IMO. I see a big red flag in that regard.

 

Hell, We better stay healthy, As I said, BV and his medical/coaching staff will have a prime roll in our team next season, specially if we go like this.