2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[Deebs]

Not this year. I think they should save their money for a year that we have a need for just a bit more than they are willing to spend and then get us the piece that puts us over the top. There is no way for the owners to realistically afford two good SP' date=' a closer, much of the pen, and a quality RHH OF all at once. Thats what we need. Its just too much for one year.[/quote']

 

IMO, what the team needs is one good middle rotation SP, one good late inning reliever, and a few other cheap arms (starters and relievers) for depth. That is certainly doable.

 

A RH right fielder would be a nice addition, but it is not a need for the team.

 

The offense should be good to go, as is.

[Deebs]

Great. Who closes then? Who else is in the pen? Who is the fourth starter?

The needs for this team are great...nearly impossible to fill in one year.

 

The needs of the team are not great. This team was the best team in baseball by a good margin for 5 months, with quite a few injuries, not that injuries were an excuse for the September collapse.

 

They only needed to play .333 ball in September to go to the playoffs. The fact that the team collapsed that badly is an anomaly.

[SoxSport]

Cafardo suggests the Red Sox have been asking for Garza as compenstion for Epstein, right from the start.

That's probably what has been holding things up. It's possible some kind of deal can be struck--but it will take a lot more.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/12/ask_nick_go_get.html

[seabeachfred]

I am even cheaper than Wakefield and i can't get anyone out either. I don't think they should sign me or Wakefield.

 

LMFAO 700---but I could throw batting practice as well as Wakefield does, I'll bet. And that's what he throws and the balls leave the bat ten times as fast as they get to the plate, but as Pumpsie says, he's cheap and it looks to me like the front office is looking for another cheap way out. A shame too because unlike my pal Pumpsie, you, I and User, and I'm sure a few others, actually believe we could make a go of it next season with some tooling up. The word is the team is waiting for the prices to come down, but I counter with WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY WAITING FOR INSTEAD?

[seabeachfred]

Some have said that Crawford's contract valued according with the market in 2010 offseason and his caliber (numbers) as a player and some just the opposite. Look at Werth's contract and the OFs available at that time. I was very' date=' very excited when he was signed, that I didn't care about the amount of his contract at time. This guy already ate 14 M. If he comebacks (likely, and better), everybody will forget the amount of his contract and his 2011 disastrous season, otherwise be prepare for an extensive crusade against Carl Crawford.[/quote']

 

IORTIZ, if Carl makes a nice comeback to resemble the player we thought we got when we signed him, well then, the team will feel vindicated and the fans will be pleased. OTOH, if he replicates his miserable 2011 season next year he is going to be booed out of town and become a punch line in the press, not to mention the talk shows ripping him a new one every chance they get. He has some making up to do, some big making up to do and a solid Crawford would go a long way to helping us compete next season. I just hope he comes to ST with head screwed on right.

[redsoxfan3]

The needs of the team are not great. This team was the best team in baseball by a good margin for 5 months, with quite a few injuries, not that injuries were an excuse for the September collapse.

 

They only needed to play .333 ball in September to go to the playoffs. The fact that the team collapsed that badly is an anomaly.

 

+1 Thank you! I completely agree.

 

A lot of fans that I talk to want to completely rebuild this team. We lost Papelbon, that the only huge loss for us. We can solve that by signing Ryan Madson. In my opinion, we don't even need to sign Madson, we just need to find a decent closer who can get the job done (I wouldn't mind giving Melancon the chance). This team has the chance to be the best team in baseball if everyone stays healthy. We can break this down by each position.

 

C- We improve some. We lose an aging Varitek (hopefully the FO does not feel the need to cave in and resign him). We sign Shoppach, who will replace Varitek. Shoppach is great with throwing out runners. We have Lavarnway as well, who will probably start the year in AAA (my guess so he doesn't lose at bats and playing time), who could always come up and be an offensive bonus to this team. We can expect the same out of Salty.

 

1B- Stay the same with Gonzalez. I expect a drop off on his average, but a boost in his power numbers. We still will be solid at 1B.

 

2B- We have leadership at 2B with Pedroia. He will hopefully be the next Captain if they choose to give someone the C. I expect his stats to be the same, if not slightly better.

 

SS- We have Scutaro again. He will be solid for us. I don't expect big things out of him, but we definitely are not getting worse at SS.

 

3B- Youk is solid defensively and I expect him to contribute more offensively if he can stay healthy. We should improve at 3B.

 

Utility IF- We got rid of Lowrie, but we replace him with Punto. We also have Mike Aviles this year. We have two solid utility infielders.

 

DH- We stay the same at DH with Papi. His numbers might decrease some, but we will still get solid production from him. We have Lavarnway ready to go as a backup plan if something were to happen to Papi.

 

LF- This is the big question mark. Carl Crawford cannot do any worse than last year. We can really only improve in LF. I think this will be a bounce back year for Crawford. If he has a big year offensively, along with Youk, then this team will be one of the best, if not the best offensive team in baseball.

 

CF- If Ellsbury can duplicate his numbers from last year, then that will be amazing. I see a slight drop off of power numbers from Ellsbury, but I still see him giving us great production with average and with speed. We are definitely set in CF next year.

 

RF- This is another question mark. A lot of people want a RH right fielder. J.D. Drew is gone, but that is perfectly fine with me. We have Kalish and Reddick that can play in a platoon role together if we do not go get a RH right fielder. I think Reddick will be more consistent. I hope Kalish can have a good recovery after his injury. I think that we can improve in RF, but it is a question mark at this point. Maybe Cody Ross would be a nice addition.

 

Utility OF- McDonald is our RH outfielder as of now, but I see us signing another RH outfielder at some point. At this point, we stay the same, but we only improve with a signing.

 

SP- It sounds hard to believe since we haven't signed anyone, but we actually can only improve our rotation. Lackey is out for the year and Wakefield is hopefully not returning. With Lester, Beckett, and Buchholz at the front of the rotation, we have a strong front end if they all can stay healthy. Bard was moved to the rotation and possibly Aceves, depending on if we sign any other starters. The only thing we have to do is improve on the production of Wakefield and Lackey, and that should not be hard to do. Dice-K might even be beneficial to us when he makes his return in July or August. At the very least he adds depth for us. The only thing that raises a concern for me is injuries. If we can stay healthy, then we can have a solid rotation. I like the rotation as of now, signing someone else will only improve the rotation. We are still looking into Oswalt, Kuroda, and Jackson. We resigned Miller, which helps our depth and he can be a spot starter. Jesse Carlson could also be a decent spot starter if needed. I expect Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, and Bard to all start for us. If we don't sign another pitcher, then I am comfortable with Aceves in the rotation. Matsuzaka, Miller, and Carlson are there to add depth during the year if needed.

 

Bullpen- Bard and Melancon can both close for us if needed. If the season started tomorrow, then Melancon is our closer. I am comfortable with him closing, but I know a lot of people are not (I am a lot more comfortable with him as the the set-up man). I know we lost Paps, and that is a huge loss to the pen, but we are making a fresh new pen. Bard will probably be in the rotation, and possibly Aceves, but if they don't work out as starters, we know they are reliable relievers. I expect Jenks to be a positive contributor. We are still probably going to try to trade for Bailey or sign Madson, that would only improve the pen, because Melancon would be able to be the set-up man. Miller, Albers, Bowden, Morales, Doubront, and Atchinson will also be fighting for spots in the pen. Nothing is set in stone at this point, but we do have options for the bullpen. We also can go out and trade for some relievers and still even sign some relievers. If we can get a bounce back year from Jenks, improvement from Albers, decent numbers from Morales again, see Doubront reach his potential, see a decent year from Atchinson, and have Miller and Bowden be consistent when called upon, then this bullpen will be effective. I am not expecting us to have the best bullpen in baseball, but I expect us to have a decent bullpen. We are far from finished acquiring players this offseason. The bullpen will be decent and with a good offense and a better rotation, then the bullpen will be effective enough. I would love for us to sign Madson.

 

The biggest thing for this team is injuries. If we can stay healthy, this team will be one of the best in baseball. We have new management, which is a positive. A lot of people forget how good this team was last year for most of the year. The September collapse will not happen again.

[redsoxfan3]

BTW, has anyone heard if Marco Scutaro was at Disney on Christmas? I saw someone in a Red Sox shirt that looked like Scutaro. I was at Epcot with my fiancee. I searched for it online, but didn't find anything. I was just interested in knowing, because I know not too long ago Pedroia was spotted there. If anyone heard anything, it would be cool to know. I did happen to see some Notre Dame football players.

[FredLynn]

Bard will probably be in the rotation, and possibly Aceves, but if they don't work out as starters, we know they are reliable relievers. I expect Jenks to be a positive contributor. We are still probably going to try to trade for Bailey or sign Madson, that would only improve the pen, because Melancon would be able to be the set-up man. Miller, Albers, Bowden, Morales, Doubront, and Atchinson will also be fighting for spots in the pen.

 

I do NOT expect us to get either Madson or Bailey. Too expensive. As for Jenks, the less said the better. He is an out of shape loser. Those other guys-Miller, Bowden, Doubront, Atchison, Albers....come on. Really?

And thats just the pen, assuming our two best remaining relievers are in the rotation. There won't be a number of runs that will be enough next year.

[redsoxfan3]

Bard will probably be in the rotation' date=' and possibly Aceves, but if they don't work out as starters, we know they are reliable relievers.[i'] I expect Jenks to be a positive contributor. We are still probably going to try to trade for Bailey or sign Madson, that would only improve the pen, because Melancon would be able to be the set-up man. Miller, Albers, Bowden, Morales, Doubront, and Atchinson will also be fighting for spots in the pen.[/i]

 

I do NOT expect us to get either Madson or Bailey. Too expensive. As for Jenks, the less said the better. He is an out of shape loser. Those other guys-Miller, Bowden, Doubront, Atchison, Albers....come on. Really?

And thats just the pen, assuming our two best remaining relievers are in the rotation. There won't be a number of runs that will be enough next year.

 

I can't say I disagree with you about not expecting us to get Bailey or Madson, but it is possible. You aren't even going to give Jenks a chance? I agree he was out-of-shape in the past, but what makes you think he is not trying to improve on that? He might be better than you think next year. Miller will be a long inning reliever when needed and a spot starter. I am not expecting him to be reliable in the pen, just as someone to be there so we don't burn out our other relievers. I am not expecting us to have Bowden as a reliable reliever either, just another innings eater. Doubront is yet to reach his potential. I have more faith in him than most do. I feel like he can play a vital role in our pen. He has started the majority of his career. If he can work on just being a decent reliever, then I think he can be effective. Give him some time in Spring Training. Atchinson only pitched in 17 games last year, but if he can have the same numbers as last year and be consistent for us this year, he can also be a decent contributor. I'm not really expecting much out of Albers, he has pretty much sucked his entire career. I was just saying that if he improves, then that will be a boost to the pen. I am not expecting these guys to be the best relievers in the world, I was just stating the positives that these guys can do to help our pen out. Like I said, we are not going to have the best bullpen, but I think we will construct a bullpen by opening day that we can compete with. We are not finished with acquisitions. Like you said, you don't expect us to go after Madson or Bailey, but we might. We are not just going to sit back the rest of the offseason, we are going to do something else to improve our pen. I really liked the addition of Melancon.

[example1]

In a way, Beckett is worth exactly what he got. Just like the value of your home-its worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it.

That said, I would not have bought Beckett for 4x $17M.

 

Just out of curiosity, what pitcher(s) would you have signed instead of Beckett before the 2010 season, when he still had the 2010 season optioned at 12m.

 

And, to start you off, Cliff Lee wasn't coming to Boston.

[jung]

They only needed to play .333 ball in September to go to the playoffs. The fact that the team collapsed that badly is an anomaly.

 

I really don't think that last year is going to end up having much to do with the year coming. Even when you have many of the same players coming back, situations change, players change, coaches change, even modest changes in personnel can make for a very different team profile taken over the 162 game haul.

 

So I don't think much about last year's team relative to 2012. However the idea that September was an anomaly does not make much sense to me. In the first place I do not even know what that means with regard to a baseball team playing 162 games. If you are going to write off September that way, how do you write off April? The Sox got pounded to start the season as well. In truth they sucked at the start, sucked at the end and had a great middle. What does it matter? they won what they won and they lost what they lost.

 

I know I have used this Bill Parcell's quote here before when discussing this topic. However I think it is very true. "You are what you are". Your record is your record and when they lost or won the games is meaningless when compared to how many were won and lost. Any other way to think about it is a rationalization.

 

We will have the team we have at the start of the season. If there is one thing about last year's team that I hope will not be an issue next year, it will be the drop off in performance by position and then in backups vs the front line 8 everyday guys. The 2011 Sox had big stars and big holes in the starting line up that made it hard to sustain rallies as there were simply too many players underperforming and the Sox could not hide all of them. In addition when players went down we really did not have much supporting them. We had some great players in the starting 8 but not much backing them up when they went down. If you look at recent successful regular and post season teams they feature pitching (which we did not have) and a more balanced lineup with fewer monster stars and more balance both in the starting 8 and in the team overall. The biggest problem I have with Ortiz coming back is that it means there is no formula for resting Youk and AGons, both of whom clearly needed the rest by year end. In Youk's case it is such an issue that I would seriously consider trading him unless there is a formula that both puts quality players in the field as replacements and keeps him from having to play so many games at third.

 

They will win some and they will lose some. Once again when they lose them or win them will not be anywhere near as important is how many they win and lose. The only element of timing that may be a factor is how good the team is playing going into the post season. On balance you would certainly want them playing good baseball going into the playoffs. However the wins and losses at that time of year may depend on the extent to which the manager is resting players and/or setting up his rotation and his bullpen for the post season. So even playing good at the end of the season may not be entirely reflected in the record.

 

However if the Sox do not become more balanced within the starting 8 and as a team in total, then over 162 games, I think that will show. It will show because in the Networks controlled modern pro sports leagues of today you simply cannot keep running your big stars out there day after day after day. They will run down or get injured and it won't matter what you are paying them at that point. The more balanced teams have a much better chance at surviving in the modern era of Networks really controlling when you play and how often you play.

 

I did not comment negatively about AGons and his statements at the end of the season because he was wrong. AGons was correct! The Networks do control the schedules and thus control travel and a whole host of other things over the 162 game grind. I did not think AGons was wrong at all. I thought he was wrong for mentioning it publicly as there were other teams that faced grueling schedules all year as well. They were simply better balanced and better prepared to handle the grind and that is more than just conditioning.

[mvp 78]

The hardest weeks of the season are the first few (get off to a good start) and the last few (playoff push). When it counted, this team failed miserably. Even if they squeaked into the playoffs, they would have fizzled out. Just not a mentally tough team.

[iortiz]

Bard will probably be in the rotation' date=' and possibly Aceves, but if they don't work out as starters, we know they are reliable relievers.[i'] I expect Jenks to be a positive contributor. We are still probably going to try to trade for Bailey or sign Madson, that would only improve the pen, because Melancon would be able to be the set-up man. Miller, Albers, Bowden, Morales, Doubront, and Atchinson will also be fighting for spots in the pen.[/i]

 

I do NOT expect us to get either Madson or Bailey. Too expensive. As for Jenks, the less said the better. He is an out of shape loser. Those other guys-Miller, Bowden, Doubront, Atchison, Albers....come on. Really?

And thats just the pen, assuming our two best remaining relievers are in the rotation. There won't be a number of runs that will be enough next year.

 

We better sign Madson or Bailey. Those names make me nervous.

 

On the other hand, let's say we sign Kuroda or Oswalt. Then we have 4 spots filled, but What if Bard/Aceves don't work out as a starters, let's say in Spring training or somewhen early in the season?

 

What would be plan B? Miller? Doubront?

[example1]

So I don't think much about last year's team relative to 2012. However the idea that September was an anomaly does not make much sense to me. In the first place I do not even know what that means with regard to a baseball team playing 162 games.

 

Well, it means that no team in history has had a September like that after having such a sizeable lead for the playoffs. It is not likely to repeat itself in that way.

 

I could write a lot more about it, but want to keep the response as simple as I can.

 

I have a lot more faith that this team is closer to the team that led baseball in offense, put up a pythag record of 94-68, and is loaded with well-respected talent, than that they are the miserable failures so many here say they are. I don't think they should be rebuilt, I don't think they should be blown up. I think they are a mid-90s win team with the possibility to win 100 games without much of a shift in performance, luck or timing.

 

You may think differently.

[Deebs]

+1 Thank you! I completely agree.

 

A lot of fans that I talk to want to completely rebuild this team. We lost Papelbon, that the only huge loss for us. We can solve that by signing Ryan Madson. In my opinion, we don't even need to sign Madson, we just need to find a decent closer who can get the job done (I wouldn't mind giving Melancon the chance). This team has the chance to be the best team in baseball if everyone stays healthy. We can break this down by each position.

 

 

I pretty much agree with what you wrote. The bottom line is that this will not be a rebuilding year. This team does not need a major overhaul. It has most of the pieces to make it to the postseason in 2012, if it can stay relatively healthy.

 

Our offensive production from right field last year sucked. We were one of the worst teams, if not the worst team, in most of the offensive categories from the right field position. It has to get better, as does Crawford in LF. I'm expecting a drop off from Ellsbury, but his drop should not outweigh the gain from the other OF spots.

 

I am concerned about Youk. IMO, he is NOT solid defensively, and I worry about his ability to stay healthy. That said, if he can stay healthy, his offensive numbers are solid for a 3B, albeit not as good as when he played 1B.

 

As far as pitching is concerned, I think that pretty much anyone we slot in the rotation will be better than Lackey was last year. We'll have Buchholz back, hopefully healthy. One solid #3 or #4 pitcher, and our rotation looks pretty good with Aceves or Bard in the #5 slot. I don't like the idea of both of them going to the rotation.

 

Melancon, Bard, Aceves, possibly Jenks, can be solid late inning relievers. Since one of Bard or Aceves will likely be in the rotation, I would like to see one more late inning arm picked up. I don't know that it will be either Bailey or Madson but we'll see. The other BP slots can be filled by the names you mentioned and/or some cheap reclamation projects willing to take a minor league deal.

[Deebs]

Well, it means that no team in history has had a September like that after having such a sizeable lead for the playoffs. It is not likely to repeat itself in that way.

 

I could write a lot more about it, but want to keep the response as simple as I can.

 

I have a lot more faith that this team is closer to the team that led baseball in offense, put up a pythag record of 94-68, and is loaded with well-respected talent, than that they are the miserable failures so many here say they are. I don't think they should be rebuilt, I don't think they should be blown up. I think they are a mid-90s win team with the possibility to win 100 games without much of a shift in performance, luck or timing.

 

You may think differently.

 

That's pretty much it in a nutshell example1. Well said.

[Elktonnick]

Well, it means that no team in history has had a September like that after having such a sizeable lead for the playoffs. It is not likely to repeat itself in that way.

 

I could write a lot more about it, but want to keep the response as simple as I can.

 

I have a lot more faith that this team is closer to the team that led baseball in offense, put up a pythag record of 94-68, and is loaded with well-respected talent, than that they are the miserable failures so many here say they are. I don't think they should be rebuilt, I don't think they should be blown up. I think they are a mid-90s win team with the possibility to win 100 games without much of a shift in performance, luck or timing.

 

You may think differently.

 

As we speak this team is worse on paper than last year's team going into the season. It doesn't have a closer, it doesn't have a 4th or 5th starter or it doesn't have a setup (Bard and Aceves can't be both starters or in the bullpen) or any decent middle relievers. The way it is currently constructed, it is like many Red Sox clubs who finished out of the money, it will score a lot or runs but it will give up almost as many.

[Muggah]

As we speak this team is worse on paper than last year's team going into the season. It doesn't have a closer' date=' it doesn't have a 4th or 5th starter or it doesn't have a setup (Bard and Aceves can't be both starters or in the bullpen) or any decent middle relievers. The way it is currently constructed, it is like many Red Sox clubs who finished out of the money, it will score a lot or runs but it will give up almost as many.[/quote']

 

 

Ya, as currently constituted predicting a mid 90 win season for this team is a real stretch, IMO. They will score runs, but our SPing dangerously thin and shaky. We don't have a bonafide Ace, we have a couple #2s in Beckett and Lester (who was iffy last year) and still a question mark in Buccholz if you ask me. Back problems always scare me. And if one of those three goes down we're seriously looking at a slightly-above .500 season. Hell even if they all stay healthy we're still looking a battle for third place in the division with the Jays at best.

 

I get the old 'hope springs eternal' that surfaces as every ST draws a bit closer, but reality and 95 Ws just doesn't add up this year. If this team wins 90 and manages to finish third again in the division people should consider 2012 a success.

[FredLynn]

Just out of curiosity, what pitcher(s) would you have signed instead of Beckett before the 2010 season, when he still had the 2010 season optioned at 12m.

 

And, to start you off, Cliff Lee wasn't coming to Boston.

 

Thats a fair question, but it would require a lot of time to go back and look to see who was available back then. If I have time to do that research I will do it...but not now.

[FredLynn]

Cafardo suggests the Red Sox have been asking for Garza as compenstion for Epstein, right from the start.

That's probably what has been holding things up. It's possible some kind of deal can be struck--but it will take a lot more.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/12/ask_nick_go_get.html

 

In that article Cafardo also said that the owners are trying very hard to stay BELOW the luxury tax limit so it can get reset for next year. So are the Yankees, according to him. I agree with him; that appears to be what is happening. And I also think its a good move.

[Bellhorn04]

I think they need to bite the bullet and sign Madson as closer. It'll be expensive and put them over the tax limit, but it'll clear up the biggest question mark the team has, and it'll give them a shot at being a playoff contender and give the fans some hope for this year. Also it'll give them at least two solid end-of-game relievers for the next 3-4 years or whatever. Then they can let Bard have his chance at starting and patch together a rotation somehow.

[jung]

The Sox are not far away from attrition taking care of some of the issues I discussed in the earlier post. Some of the monster big contracts to star players are going to give out in the next few years and I would hope the team modernizes its approach to team building along the way.

 

The networks are only going to gain more control of professional sports not less and the schedules and travel will only get worse and more brutal.

 

A good example of where I think baseball teams will need to go can be found in pro hockey. NHL teams are forced to play three lines of forwards at least if not four and three lines of defensemen with virtually everybody contributing in each game. While baseball will not require teams of 25 players each contributing to each game in the way that a hockey club does, I do think more and more successful baseball teams will be teams of 25 players that make significant contributions on a regular basis throughout the season. Teams with a very limited number of monster contract stars that spread their budget farther down the roster will stand a better chance of winning than a team loaded with stars in the everyday eight lineup but with very little support behind them.

[Bellhorn04]

A good example of where I think baseball teams will need to go can be found in pro hockey. NHL teams are forced to play three lines of forwards at least if not four and three lines of defensemen with virtually everybody contributing in each game. While baseball will not require teams of 25 players each contributing to each game in the way that a hockey club does' date=' I do think more and more successful baseball teams will be teams of 25 players that make significant contributions on a regular basis throughout the season. Teams with a very limited number of monster contract stars that spread their budget farther down the roster will stand a better chance of winning than a team loaded with stars in the everyday eight lineup but with very little support behind them.[/quote']

 

Interesting theory, but I wonder if the salary distribution in baseball is now, or ever will be, much different than it is in the other major team sports, proportionately speaking. I'd like to see some numbers on the payroll breakdowns in the other sports.

[jung]

the degree to which the payroll runs deeper into the roster is sport dependent.

 

Football is basically there already. Most football teams have one or two guys making top money for their positions. The Pats have two guys, Logan Mankins at Offensive Tackle and Tom Brady at Quarterback. The bulk of the rest are in the middle ground and there are a significant number making close to league mins. Football might be in its own category though since they play once per week for 17 weeks and the sport is brutally physical. Football players are modern gladiators.

 

Hockey is already there with much more payroll going deeper into the roster. You might argue that Hockey is as brutal as Football but Pro Hockey has one very significant injury issue, concussion, and then it falls way behind Football after that. Eventually I think Pro Hockey will make a combination of rule changes and equipment changes that will relieve the concussion problem. Hard plastic pads and wooden or fiberglass boards mashing directly into faces and heads wearing almost meaningless helmets is the problem there. The league will likely legislate play around the boards and/or will make major equipment changes to soft padding that protects but does not act as much like a weapon. Equipment changes should have a big impact.

 

Basketball is not there but pro basketball is a basket case (pardon the pun). They would have been better off blowing up the whole thing and starting from scratch. Worse commissioner is all of pro sport...corruption on a grand scale....inmates running the asylum....a giant mess. The big 3 star formula is not really cutting it in pro basketball unless there is a decent supporting cast. Celtics are a good example. The Celts big 3 simply could not stay on the floor long enough last year and there was nothing really behind them. As a result the Celts went through huge scoring binges and would go 3 and 5 minutes at a time without being able to score a single basket from the field.

 

Baseball has a number of teams with multiple high priced stars and other teams for which the whole team payroll is taken up by the top three guys on the big payroll teams. So baseball is definitely not there at this point as far as payroll generally going deep into the roster.

[example1]

As we speak this team is worse on paper than last year's team going into the season. It doesn't have a closer' date=' it doesn't have a 4th or 5th starter or it doesn't have a setup (Bard and Aceves can't be both starters or in the bullpen) or any decent middle relievers. The way it is currently constructed, it is like many Red Sox clubs who finished out of the money, it will score a lot or runs but it will give up almost as many.[/quote']

 

And they're on a 7 game losing streak. Hopefully Beckett can pull them out of that spiral tomorrow when they play the... wait, there aren't any games for another few months.

 

If the season started tomorrow your point might matter.

[example1]

Thats a fair question' date=' but it would require a lot of time to go back and look to see who was available back then. If I have time to do that research I will do it...but not now.[/quote']

 

I hope you will. Your argument about Beckett hinges entirely upon finding a better answer to that question.

[example1]

Baseball has a number of teams with multiple high priced stars and other teams for which the whole team payroll is taken up by the top three guys on the big payroll teams. So baseball is definitely not there at this point as far as payroll generally going deep into the roster.

 

The Sox aren't really a team built solely around the production of highly paid stars. They have 3 very good SPs and two of them are in the midst of team friendly contracts. They had 3 players in the MVP balloting last year, and two of them played for reasonable contracts.

 

They're perhaps a bit top-heavy, but that's why teams have to value their farm system--and the Sox do.

[jung]

Boy I am not sure you would have done enough better than Beckett to make it worth talking about. Kenny Rogers was available in that same year I think. Could have gotten Roger Clemens back for what it is worth. Bartolo Colon was available. Don't think I would really have jumped through hoops to latch onto one of those guys as opposed to Beckett.

 

On balance I am just not sure we can complain about Beckett and his contract. We have so many others that have been so much worse.

[jung]

The Sox aren't really a team built solely around the production of highly paid stars. They have 3 very good SPs and two of them are in the midst of team friendly contracts. They had 3 players in the MVP balloting last year, and two of them played for reasonable contracts.

 

They're perhaps a bit top-heavy, but that's why teams have to value their farm system--and the Sox do.

 

I just don't see how this position is defensible. They did not value their farm system enough to keep them from trading off many prospects in pursuit of big name high ticket stars. They have been very top heavy although that is soon to change unless they stockpile more big names as some of these contracts expire.

 

Even their second line players have often been name players that they have paid to much to for very poor if not non-existant performance. Guys like Mike Cameron and Jenks come to mind here. I count these guys as well when I think of the Sox as a top heavy team because these are guys that were expected to produce at a certain level, were paid more for their past performance and apparently for their names and they produced complete goose eggs.

 

As far as their farm system is concerned the Sox have had a tendency of late to bury guys down there. They either end up getting blocked or seemingly forgotten if they hit any sort of a snag down there at all. In many cases these are the guys that end up being dealt away before ever getting a chance to help this team. Instead of getting a guy that comes up through the system and becomes our backup outfielder we end up with Mike Camerons, guys that we paid too much to that gave us virtually nothing. We end up with useless slobs like Jenks. The guy gives us absolutely nothing yet we are now left hoping more than expecting that he will come through in 2012. One of our other posters said it better than I am when it comes to the position that we are left in. We end up putting all of these bums on the plus side of the ledger for 2012 which I guess results in a sense of optimism. However in reality the chance that all of the guys that have been underperforming up till now are going to suddenly turn it around is rather slim. More likely some of them will and some of them won't.

 

In the meantime, the guys that have been getting older and more brittle are older and more brittle still, like Youk or just plain older and just as likely to become to old right before our very eyes as anything else. If Ortiz does get signed and falls on his face we will all just be saying things like "well after all he is 36-37 years old and guys his size tend to age very quickly once the aging process really does take hold". No s*** sherlock. This is some sort of surprise?

[Bellhorn04]

jung, it sounds like what you're saying is the Red Sox fell into the same trap the Yankees did in the early 2000's, trying to sustain championship-caliber teams and keep their hungry fanbase fed by plugging in high-priced free agents year after year, resulting in overpriced talent, wasted money and an aging team.