2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[mvp 78]

Pay attention to the content and not the author. It makes it more palatable that way.

 

It's hard to separate the two.

[example1]

No normal employee gets paid 9 times the salary that their "boss" gets either. Do you think Valentine is too stupid to realize he isn't working in cubicle city? of course he isn't. Furthermore, Valentine would garner a lot more respect if he kept these conversations quiet. That's what a good leader should do. He shouldn't be dropping tidbits of conversations just to make the fickle fanbase immediately run to his defense. That, too, is a tactic, but the intent of the tactic is to align fans with the new manager rather than with the teams highest paid and--last year--best pitcher.

 

You are right that it could be interesting to see how this plays out but it shouldn't be interesting due to valentine.

[Elktonnick]

No normal employee gets paid 9 times the salary that their "boss" gets either. Do you think Valentine is too stupid to realize he isn't working in cubicle city? of course he isn't. Furthermore, Valentine would garner a lot more respect if he kept these conversations quiet. That's what a good leader should do. He shouldn't be dropping tidbits of conversations just to make the fickle fanbase immediately run to his defense. That, too, is a tactic, but the intent of the tactic is to align fans with the new manager rather than with the teams highest paid and--last year--best pitcher.

 

You are right that it could be interesting to see how this plays out but it shouldn't be interesting due to valentine.

 

A good leader uses what ever tools needed to get the job doen. Francona kept things quiet and look where it got him. These spoiled entitled ingrats liked him but in the end they didn't respect him. Sometimes public criticism is a viable leadership tool, sometimes it may be the only viable tool.

[FredLynn]

I expect Bobby V to use the full arsenal of weapons at his disposal to straighten out the disrespectful losers on the team, including exposing them. Keeping things quiet and protecting them was a mistake Francona made. It didn't work, in the end.

Why do you think LL hired Valentine and not Sveum?

[example1]

Geez Jung...you are more of a pessimist than I am!

I have faith in Bobby V to turn this around. He is off to a good start, making it known to the media that Beckett insulted him on their first phone call and that Crawford is refusing to return his calls. How do you think that will play with those two losers? They have two choices: either come around and tow the company line or endure an entire season of being made asses of in the media. Assuming they are not totally devoid of intelligence, I think they will come around, sooner or later. Valentine will give them the chance to do that, but if they fail, its going to be very tough on them. The media here can be vicious. And eventually, if they pout, they will sit. And thats just fine with me.

 

Don't you realize that Crawford and Beckett pouting and underperforming is NOT an acceptable option for this team, and that immediately creating a situation where that is an option is at least risky and at worst suicidal for a new manager? You wish the team would just sit Beckett and Crawford? With 3 and 6 years left on their deals and more than a fifth of the teams salary between them? What?

[example1]

A good leader uses what ever tools needed to get the job doen. Francona kept things quiet and look where it got him. These spoiled entitled ingrats liked him but in the end they didn't respect him. Sometimes public criticism is a viable leadership tool' date=' sometimes it may be the only viable tool.[/quote']

 

It got Francona two WS titles on some very tough teams. Don't lose the forest for the 2011 tree here.

[jung]

No normal employee gets paid 9 times the salary that their "boss" gets either. Do you think Valentine is too stupid to realize he isn't working in cubicle city? of course he isn't. Furthermore, Valentine would garner a lot more respect if he kept these conversations quiet. That's what a good leader should do. He shouldn't be dropping tidbits of conversations just to make the fickle fanbase immediately run to his defense. That, too, is a tactic, but the intent of the tactic is to align fans with the new manager rather than with the teams highest paid and--last year--best pitcher.

 

You are right that it could be interesting to see how this plays out but it shouldn't be interesting due to valentine.

 

And since when did V look any different than the Manager and the person he has been since getting here. Asking V to keep his mouth shut is like asking and Orange to turn into an apple. This is who he is. This is who he always has been. So for everybody that wanted V here including LL....you are going to get the circus that was likely from the start. Of course I have always contended that the circus atmosphere that surrounds V is one of the things LL found attractive. LL is ever the marketeer.

 

As for being pessimistic or optimistic, I don't know what I am in that regard. I do know that I am sick and tired of these overpaid underperforming *******s and their never ended obsession with making some point or another. Do it on the field jackass cause I am sick and tired of everything else.

[FredLynn]

Don't you realize that Crawford and Beckett pouting and underperforming is NOT an acceptable option for this team' date=' and that immediately creating a situation where that is an option is at least risky and at worst suicidal for a new manager? You wish the team would just sit Beckett and Crawford? With 3 and 6 years left on their deals and more than a fifth of the teams salary between them? What?[/quote']

 

Beckett will eventually get traded if he continues his insubordinate behavior; Crawford will either sit or come around.

[FredLynn]

And since when did V look any different than the Manager and the person he has been since getting here. Asking V to keep his mouth shut is like asking and Orange to turn into an apple. This is who he is. This is who he always has been. So for everybody that wanted V here including LL....you are going to get the circus that was likely from the start. Of course I have always contended that the circus atmosphere that surrounds V is one of the things LL found attractive. LL is ever the marketeer.

 

As for being pessimistic or optimistic, I don't know what I am in that regard. I do know that I am sick and tired of these overpaid underperforming *******s and their never ended obsession with making some point or another. Do it on the field jackass cause I am sick and tired of everything else.

 

LL knew the score in Boston. Thats why he hired Valentine and not Sveum.

The team losers will come around. Trust me.

[Elktonnick]

It got Francona two WS titles on some very tough teams. Don't lose the forest for the 2011 tree here.

 

04 and 07 teams had leadrs within the clubhouse who straighten things out. The 11 team did not. Bobby V is usin the tools available to him. The media will be his ally at least initially. Everyone is disgusted with this team. The team has to re -earn their respect. That's the difference.

[mvp 78]

No normal employee gets paid 9 times the salary that their "boss" gets either. Do you think Valentine is too stupid to realize he isn't working in cubicle city? of course he isn't. Furthermore, Valentine would garner a lot more respect if he kept these conversations quiet. That's what a good leader should do. He shouldn't be dropping tidbits of conversations just to make the fickle fanbase immediately run to his defense. That, too, is a tactic, but the intent of the tactic is to align fans with the new manager rather than with the teams highest paid and--last year--best pitcher.

 

You are right that it could be interesting to see how this plays out but it shouldn't be interesting due to valentine.

 

The only thing BV gains by going to the media is satisfying the bloodlust of angry fans and giving the media an easy story.

[FredLynn]

The only thing BV gains by going to the media is satisfying the bloodlust of angry fans and giving the media an easy story.

 

Nope. If Valentine does this quietly behind closed doors he will be Francona all over again, and we all know how that ended up.

These spoiled malcontents will either come around or suffer this season.

[User Name]

Wow. More virtually unreadable catastrophizing and the season hasn't started yet. HELL the calendar year of the season hasn't started yet. Crawford and Bobby V haven't become best friends yet? Oh my! Beckett didn't start off by congratulating Bobby V for the new job. Oh no! Things are utterly terrible right now!

 

I heard that Beckett was pissed because he was intentionally pitching extra slow against the Yankees due to comments from a Yankee bench coach complaining about it while Beckett was mowing them down. Valentines connents backed up the yankees and completely ignored the fact that what Beckett was doing was effective against a very good team. Beckett figured he should keep pissing off the Yankees. I hope Bobby V will support the approach if it leads to beating the Yankees, rather than forcing Beckett to speed up with worse results.

 

Players suck. Manager sucks. FO sucks. Clean house.

[Bellhorn04]

It got Francona two WS titles on some very tough teams. Don't lose the forest for the 2011 tree here.

 

Agreed, Francona clubhouse management style was pretty successful up until 2011.

[jung]

I agree that V should not take the Tito approach. However when players take the very first opportunity they get to pump out their chest....the way Beckett and Crawford have, that is not a good sign at all. I agree that this is really just about all the Sox and V can do at this point. When however you have employees that steadfast, that unwilling to see the trees for the forest....that have their heads stuck that far in the sand, I don't think this will work.

 

I have said this before but this is not as much an issue of the individual persona's of particular players as much as it is a team that forgot to maintain the delicate balance between entitled stars and up and coming players still playing for their bacon. In a league of guaranteed contracts the front office must maintain a balance between those two opposing influences or the "team" is doomed. For years the Red Sox traded away many of its up and coming players to sign even more long term contracts at big money and upset that balance to a point now where everyplace you look with few exceptions you find guys for which the Sox simply have no controlling mechanisms.

 

In a very few cases those players have enough integrity to and love of the game to put their own self interests behind those of the team. Remember for these guys with big money contracts the issue is no longer whether they will be paid. The issue is whether they can continue to be *******s while being paid. It is that sick! It is "I am going to get my money AND I am going to be a jerk AND I am going to rub it in your nose while I am doing it. If they keep this up I hope this team gets its ass booed right off the f***in' field next year because that is the only controlling mechanism left. How many Pepsi deals do you think there will be out there for players getting booed off the field every time their name is announced.

[FredLynn]

Agreed' date=' Francona clubhouse management style was pretty successful up until 2011.[/quote']

 

Nope. How did we do in 2010 and 2009? How many playoff games did we win?

Hint: less than one.

His last three years resulted in unacceptable performances by his team.

[User Name]

We, as fans, are entitled to at least an ALCS appearance every year with this being a big market team and us being the best fans in the universe.

[FredLynn]

We' date=' as fans, are entitled to at least an ALCS appearance every year with this being a big market team and us being the best fans in the universe.[/quote']

 

We are not entitled to it this year.

Its a rebuilding year.

[User Name]

We are entitled to it every year. This is a large market team and should act like it. Stop the penny pinching, trade useless prospects for established stars and sign the best FA's available.

 

Anything less than an ALCS is a failed season.

[jung]

On balance we are bunch of f***in' pink hats that would not know a baseball team from a ballet company. The Red Sox fan base is no longer made up of the kinds of fans represented on these boards. They are for the most part guys and gals sitting in the "company" seats as a reward for some damn thing or another. It is pathetic.

[example1]

I just can't believe that so many of you are spouting a story of huge insubordination based on half-reports and one sided non-comments by Bobby valentine, who claims to have invented the wrap and told the three envelopes tale in the face of a befuddled Francona. Suddenly Carl Crawford is a huge ******* and Beckett is the worst character on the team. It is nonsensical to me.

 

If you want these entitled *******s to just do it on the field then consider your sources (not the players in any of these stories) and wait for the games start before judging what they have to say.

[FredLynn]

I just can't believe that so many of you are spouting a story of huge insubordination based on half-reports and one sided non-comments by Bobby valentine, who claims to have invented the wrap and told the three envelopes tale in the face of a befuddled Francona. Suddenly Carl Crawford is a huge ******* and Beckett is the worst character on the team. It is nonsensical to me.

 

If you want these entitled *******s to just do it on the field then consider your sources (not the players in any of these stories) and wait for the games start before judging what they have to say.

 

I don't hear Beckett or Crawford denying any of what is being said.

Its insubordination, plain and simple.

[iortiz]

For teams like Boston and NY among a few others, making the POs is an obligation.

 

I put this before, I'm not sure if you agree with me on this.

 

POs obligation

Win DS - Good season

Win AL - Very Good season

Win WS - Excelent Season.

[jung]

Gee do ya' think if Crawford was not trying to send a message here he could at least leave a message for V? "Hear ya' been trying to reach me coach" Oh no wait, these are pro baseball players...more importantly...Red Sox baseball players.....virtual gods! I forgot....politeness and civility are not to be expected here, never mind standard fair for employee to employer. Humanity is not even expected here. Why should it be from a god.

 

We get what we f***in deserve.

[iortiz]

Gee do ya' think if Crawford was not trying to send a message here he could at least leave a message for V? "Hear ya' been trying to reach me coach" Oh no wait, these are pro baseball players...more importantly...Red Sox baseball players.....virtual gods! I forgot....politeness and civility are not to be expected here, never mind standard fair for employee to employer. Humanity is not even expected here. Why should it be from a god.

 

We get what we f***in deserve.

 

My soccer team is not a big market team. Is far to be one. They haven't won a championship in 60 years or something. We usually play with young talent and we always have a limited payroll in order to face the seasons, but the fans of this soccer team always appreciate that the players usually leave all in the field. If not, we let them know. They don't have or show diva attitudes. They are not very well paid as other players in big market teams.

 

The problem with big market teams beyond the sport which usually have millioner players is that the managers and the FO have to deal with some of them because sometimes the money blinds them and makes them lose the ground. Our team had lacks of leadership about this matter among others at least the last 3 years. Here is the results. Now, You need to revert all this "bad practices and attitudes". As I said, I'm not sure if Beckett, Crawford, Youk etc. have this diva attitude (Seems so) but if true, I hope that not only V but Ben and LL help him to revert this cancer.

[mvp 78]

I just can't believe that so many of you are spouting a story of huge insubordination based on half-reports and one sided non-comments by Bobby valentine, who claims to have invented the wrap and told the three envelopes tale in the face of a befuddled Francona. Suddenly Carl Crawford is a huge ******* and Beckett is the worst character on the team. It is nonsensical to me.

 

If you want these entitled *******s to just do it on the field then consider your sources (not the players in any of these stories) and wait for the games start before judging what they have to say.

 

Wait, FrancoMa didn't really leave 3 letters in a drawer for the new coach.

 

Some people just need to bitch about. Tis the season.

[User Name]

On balance we are bunch of f***in' pink hats that would not know a baseball team from a ballet company. The Red Sox fan base is no longer made up of the kinds of fans represented on these boards. They are for the most part guys and gals sitting in the "company" seats as a reward for some damn thing or another. It is pathetic.

 

This is not the fans' fault. It's the FO's fault! They are inept. This FO sucks, and hasn't improved with the departure of boy Blunder. Ben the Boob has done nothing to fix this team.

 

I keep saying that, as fans, we are entitled to ask for, nay, demand, at least an ALCS appearance per season. Anything else is failure. In fact, the 2011 102-win Phillies are nothing but a failure since they didn't make it to the ALCS.

[FredLynn]

This is not the fans' fault. It's the FO's fault! They are inept. This FO sucks, and hasn't improved with the departure of boy Blunder. Ben the Boob has done nothing to fix this team.

 

I keep saying that, as fans, we are entitled to ask for, nay, demand, at least an ALCS appearance per season. Anything else is failure. In fact, the 2011 102-win Phillies are nothing but a failure since they didn't make it to the ALCS.

 

The FO has done just fine so far. They got rid of Boy Blunder and an inept manager and hired a sheriff in his place. Now they have started the process of straightening out the clubhouse misfits.

[jung]

True it is not the fans fault. My comment was more a comment on what we will likely be hearing as Beckett's name is announced next season no matter what he does. Oh yea Josh oh yea yea yea....we love you Josh. PATHETIC!

 

While on the topic of Mr Beckett....why did he decide to have anything to say to V about something V said as a sports analyst on a f***ing broadcast. Are you for real Josh? Boy that head must be hard to carry around. Surprised you don't have a couple of fan boys on each shoulder to help carry the weight. *******!

[User Name]

This FO sucks! Specially Ben the Boob. Bunch of penny pinchers!