This needs to be said.

[SCM33]

Some people on this site seem to love hyperbole/rhetoric to sickening levels. They were a win away from the WS in 2008 and made the playoffs in '09' date=' both succesful seasons. If you think otherwise, you're either a retardedly entitled fan (a seemingly ongoing issue with RS nation) or have really unrealistic expectations.[/quote']

 

Since when does almost count?

[seabeachfred]

Fred' date=' you've only been a fan since 2004, which was noted back in the dodger blues drama. You have little right to question anyone else's "affection" for the team.[/quote']

 

Incorrectamundo MVP 78; try 2000. And why you would bring up again that discredited bunch whose forum site has been obliterated from the internet as any kind of legitimate proof is beyond me. The questioning I did is to find out whether any Red Sox fan can be satisfied with what happened this season without being good and chapped. Perhaps a little different wording would have been better. Also be advised it is not how long you followed a team but how deep you;ve developed an affection for that club determines your passion for that ballclub.

 

You did, however, succeed in hitting me where I live and kuddos for you on that. I do get a little guilt feeling that I came on board just a few years before the Red Sox went on a successful tear. I can admire and do those of you who had suffered for decades of bitter disappointments before the team finally hit paydirt. I still often wonder why it took me so long to adopt the Red Sox. They were always there and I had been searching for a team to really take hold of ever since the Dodgers left Brooklyn.

 

BTW, two of those rumdumbs who I sparred with from DB back then are now among my closest friends....Another one is also a friend but not as close....Go figure.

[User Name]

Since when does almost count?

 

So by this logic, 29 of the 30 teams (including seven of the eight that make the postseason) fail miserably every season. I don't agree with that.

[seabeachfred]

The last four seasons? Excuse me? The Red Sox were a game away from the World Series in 2008.

 

Damn it Palodios, I kept telling myself to say the last THREE years instead of four because some one would call me on that, but didn't take my own advice. I still remember 2008 very disappointingly because I felt we should have won the division that year and gotten home field advantage in the ALCS. There were two crucial series with the Rays that September where we won the first game and lost the next two, games that we should have won. If you remember, Francona has numerous times to lay down a bunt to move a runner, try stealing on Rays pitchers that were slow to the plate, call for a hit and run once in awhile. Instead he played his dull and unimaginative station-to-station baseball and we would up hitting into a number of rally killing double plays.

 

In the ALCS, after we won the first game, Francona said Beckett would have to go seven no matter what and we wound up blowing two or three leads as Josh was getting wracked up. Later on the same rally killing double plays gave the Rays a chance to win the game in extra innings. I fully soured on Francona that season and to me that year was a disappointment.

 

Long explanation but I owed you that because you caught me in what could be a somewhat bogus statement. Have a great day.

[seabeachfred]

The 2008 Red Sox lost the Division to a vastly inferior Rays team costing them home field advantage in the playoffs and ultimately costing them back to back titles.

 

Thanks 700; were sympatico on that. Yes, we should have won the title that year and didn't partly for the reasons I outlined to Palodios, but he did catch me saying that 2008 was a crapola year. I guess it wasn't if you are willing to overlook the fact that we should have won that year since we had a better team than the Rays. We were outmanaged that year badly, and before someone calls me out on that, it is only MY personal opinion.

[Palodios]

Damn it Palodios, I kept telling myself to say the last THREE years instead of four because some one would call me on that, but didn't take my own advice. I still remember 2008 very disappointingly because I felt we should have won the division that year and gotten home field advantage in the ALCS. There were two crucial series with the Rays that September where we won the first game and lost the next two, games that we should have won. If you remember, Francona has numerous times to lay down a bunt to move a runner, try stealing on Rays pitchers that were slow to the plate, call for a hit and run once in awhile. Instead he played his dull and unimaginative station-to-station baseball and we would up hitting into a number of rally killing double plays.

 

In the ALCS, after we won the first game, Francona said Beckett would have to go seven no matter what and we wound up blowing two or three leads as Josh was getting wracked up. Later on the same rally killing double plays gave the Rays a chance to win the game in extra innings. I fully soured on Francona that season and to me that year was a disappointment.

 

Long explanation but I owed you that because you caught me in what could be a somewhat bogus statement. Have a great day.

 

Thanks for the explanation! You may or may not have started a big argument with this comment, but that seems to clear a lot up

[seabeachfred]

Not my point. One game from a World Series =/= Pure Crapola.

 

Paladios, I don't want you and 700 to get into a tuff because I didn't use a better choice of words. I outlined to you why I thought 2008 was disappointing, but I should have focused on the last three. I think most of us would agree they were crapola; 2008 might not have been, but it was close the way things played out.

[seabeachfred]

Fact is our team has not made the playoffs in 2 straight years which in my eyes is a failure plain and

simple. We have had powerhouse teams that should have won a WS or gone deep in the playoffs and

failed, Once again failure in my eyes. I don't look at numbers to see why my team did not make the playoffs or got bounced from a series as well, I'm just say anything less then a WS is failure and

perfection should be wanted in the franchise.

 

Cask, the last two years have been total failure. Hell, we didn't make the playoffs and failed to even win a division title the past four years. I think 2009 was a failure as well. We were three up at the ASB and went completely into the tank as bumbling Francona kept running out Smoltz and Penny until they were both released after getting battered by the Yankees, by then way too late. There could be an argument that 2008 might be a success but not to me. We didn't win the division and with Francona miserable connivance lost the ALCS to a weaker Tampa Bay team.

 

I guess it is in each person's own mind what constitutes success and failure. Take for instance the division. I followed the Red Sox since August of 2000 and in that time we have won only ONE division title. That constitutes failure. We've two AL Titles and two WS and that constitutes some real success, but the last four years put together do not add up to anything I want to talk about....even the 2008 ALCS which I think we blew away as early as the second game of that series when Francona couldn't divest himself of his pre-game plan to let Beckett go seven innings even though the guy was injured most of the season and he was getting blasted around that evening.

[seabeachfred]

We're still battling over what constitutes success and what constitutes failure. For my part the word ALMOST is like an ephitet. Coming close just doesn't cut it from where I sit, or as my platoon sergeant told me in basic training decades ago.....close only counts in horseshoes, love and grenades.

[mvp 78]

Fred, my only point is that you shouldn't discount someone else's affection for the Sox. A lot of us on here grew up Sox fans. We didn't have a midlife crisis and one day decide to become a Sox fan like you did. Does that make you less of a fan? No, but you probably shouldn't worry about someone else's reaction to this team. Some of us are Sox fans by birth, not by choice.

[seabeachfred]

Fred' date=' my only point is that you shouldn't discount someone else's affection for the Sox. A lot of us on here grew up Sox fans. We didn't have a midlife crisis and one day decide to become a Sox fan like you did. Does that make you less of a fan? No, but you probably shouldn't worry about someone else's reaction to this team. Some of us are Sox fans by birth, not by choice.[/quote']

 

Well said MVP and I take your advice with care and respect. I really think I could have worded that post better than I did. Midlife crisis is more on the mark that you might suspect. I got tired of being just a baseball fan without a rudder and though I was a nominal Mets rooter it wasn't any kind of real affection. That August 19 day at Fenway at the end of my first baseball trip with Sports Travel was an epiphany. I knew some Red Sox fans before and thought their loyalty to the team was just weird. Needless to say when I got sucked in they seemed very normal to me. We are really a different bunch from the rest, aren't we?:lol::lol::lol:

[SCM33]

So by this logic' date=' 29 of the 30 teams (including seven of the eight that make the postseason) fail miserably every season. I don't agree with that.[/quote']

 

I dont care about 29 other teams.

 

I care about 1 team, and "almost" means failure especially with all the hype this group got before the season started and even during the middle of the season.

[example1]

User Name may not have much tact as a relatively new poster knocking china off the tables like a bull, but I agree with him about the hyperbole. It has been out of control since the collapse. I'm hopeful it is mere venting rather than the level of nuance we can expect moving forward. I'm used to it from old vets like a700 but I hope the group of so called realists from the other site are not hellbent on setting unrealistic standards year after year and then playing Monday morning quarterback when things don't work out. I can handle (and appreciate) a few of those views but a majority is tough to stomach, especially in an offseason that really calls for measured responses rather that abstract calls for accountability.

 

The team will be addressed this winter. have no fear. It's a good club and god willing there will be another fresh season next spring.

 

Go sox!

[SCM33]

User Name may not have much tact as a relatively new poster knocking china off the tables like a bull, but I agree with him about the hyperbole. It has been out of control since the collapse. I'm hopeful it is mere venting rather than the level of nuance we can expect moving forward. I'm used to it from old vets like a700 but I hope the group of so called realists from the other site are not hellbent on setting unrealistic standards year after year and then playing Monday morning quarterback when things don't work out. I can handle (and appreciate) a few of those views but a majority is tough to stomach, especially in an offseason that really calls for measured responses rather that abstract calls for accountability.

 

The team will be addressed this winter. have no fear. It's a good club and god willing there will be another fresh season next spring.

 

Go sox!

 

Am I a vet? Oh boy I hope so!!!! Shame on you example for not mentioning me!!!

 

I rub people the wrong way sometimes, thats ok.....The only person I am supposed to rub the right way is......ahh nevermind.

 

I am a realist also, I am brash.....but I call it like I see it, even if what I see is not what other die hards see it.

 

I was born in Boston, I love the RedSox....I am a die hard, but I am not a fanboy, and I am not a homer.

 

When they suck, I call it as it is.

[example1]

Am I a vet? Oh boy I hope so!!!! Shame on you example for not mentioning me!!!

 

I rub people the wrong way sometimes, thats ok.....The only person I am supposed to rub the right way is......ahh nevermind.

 

I am a realist also, I am brash.....but I call it like I see it, even if what I see is not what other die hards see it.

 

I was born in Boston, I love the RedSox....I am a die hard, but I am not a fanboy, and I am not a homer.

 

When they suck, I call it as it is.

 

As soon as I posted I knew I should have mentioned you. Would have edited but freaking iPod makes it hard...

 

Yes you are a vet!

[a700hitter]

I can handle (and appreciate) a few of those views but a majority is tough to stomach' date=' especially in an offseason that really calls for measured responses rather that abstract calls for accountability. [/quote']

Measured responses? The manager is gone. Theo will be wearing a Cubs hat today. A number of coaches have been fired. They are blowing up the FO as SCM said they should.

[User Name]

User Name may not have much tact as a relatively new poster knocking china off the tables like a bull, but I agree with him about the hyperbole. It has been out of control since the collapse. I'm hopeful it is mere venting rather than the level of nuance we can expect moving forward. I'm used to it from old vets like a700 but I hope the group of so called realists from the other site are not hellbent on setting unrealistic standards year after year and then playing Monday morning quarterback when things don't work out. I can handle (and appreciate) a few of those views but a majority is tough to stomach, especially in an offseason that really calls for measured responses rather that abstract calls for accountability.

 

The team will be addressed this winter. have no fear. It's a good club and god willing there will be another fresh season next spring.

 

Go sox!

 

I am a realist too, but on the other side of the fence. The whole "WS or bust" rethoric is a setup for year-in, year-out dissapointment given the variability of playoff baseball.

 

As for the rest of your post, can i take it out to dinner sometime?

[a700hitter]

I am a realist also, I am brash.....but I call it like I see it, even if what I see is not what other die hards see it.

You, me and iortiz and a few others are realists. People on this board criticize us and ask us to be "more measured" in our views, but we don't run the team. Those people who run the team are blowing up FO and onfield management and there will be more to come. I am pretty sure that they know what they are doing. We have been 100% right about what needed to be done management-wise this off-season, yet we are still scoffed at as being negative. Unbelievable! What we witnessed this September was the worst collapse in Red Sox history. It couldn't have been more negative. There is no way to sugar coat what happened, and it wasn't going to be addressed with a few minor tweaks. I am glad to see the owners acting with a sense of urgency and making some big changes.

 

BTW IMO there have been signs that this organization has not been going in the right direction for a few years already. Some of us negative nuts have been posting those thoughts. Maybe if the sycophants in the press had been a little more honest and critical and openly questioned the FO all along (like they should), the FO may have examined their actions a little more critically along the way. Instead the press acted like a Red Sox PR department until disaster struck and now they are hammering them for things like conditioning, beer drinking etc. -- all of which have been issues for more than a season.

[Cask N Flagon 76]

Cask, the last two years have been total failure. Hell, we didn't make the playoffs and failed to even win a division title the past four years. I think 2009 was a failure as well. We were three up at the ASB and went completely into the tank as bumbling Francona kept running out Smoltz and Penny until they were both released after getting battered by the Yankees, by then way too late. There could be an argument that 2008 might be a success but not to me. We didn't win the division and with Francona miserable connivance lost the ALCS to a weaker Tampa Bay team.

 

I guess it is in each person's own mind what constitutes success and failure. Take for instance the division. I followed the Red Sox since August of 2000 and in that time we have won only ONE division title. That constitutes failure. We've two AL Titles and two WS and that constitutes some real success, but the last four years put together do not add up to anything I want to talk about....even the 2008 ALCS which I think we blew away as early as the second game of that series when Francona couldn't divest himself of his pre-game plan to let Beckett go seven innings even though the guy was injured most of the season and he was getting blasted around that evening.

 

 

I agree on all points believe me. I feel that the last 2-3 years have been a failure, Don't

even get me started on 2008 that was just a heartbreaker of a season considering

we should have gone at least to the WS.

[iortiz]

You, me and iortiz and a few others are realists. People on this board criticize us and ask us to be "more measured" in our views, but we don't run the team. Those people who run the team are blowing up FO and onfield management and there will be more to come. I am pretty sure that they know what they are doing. We have been 100% right about what needed to be done management-wise this off-season, yet we are still scoffed at as being negative. Unbelievable! What we witnessed this September was the worst collapse in Red Sox history. It couldn't have been more negative. There is no way to sugar coat what happened, and it wasn't going to be addressed with a few minor tweaks. I am glad to see the owners acting with a sense of urgency and making some big changes.

 

BTW IMO there have been signs that this organization has not been going in the right direction for a few years already. Some of us negative nuts have been posting those thoughts. Maybe if the sycophants in the press had been a little more honest and critical and openly questioned the FO all along (like they should), the FO may have examined their actions a little more critically along the way. Instead the press acted like a Red Sox PR department until disaster struck and now they are hammering them for things like conditioning, beer drinking etc. -- all of which have been issues for more than a season.

 

+1

 

I like the way A700, SCM33 and TedWill101 among a few others see the game and I identify myself a lot as a Red Sox fan with you guys. We certainly love this team as much as anybody around here, but the difference is that we don't have a bandage in our eyes or a predefined/tendencious edit policy (sugar coat) as some of the media has like NESN, in order to point what is wrong in this team.

[mvp 78]

And iortiz swoops in with a reach-around. Get a room please. This board is turning unreadable.

 

The Sox lost. Some people saw it coming early in the season. Others stuck their heads in the sand and told the complainers to stfu. We get it.

 

Now, can we all move forward please and quit it with the "I told you so's."

 

There's way better crap to talk about than what is currently on here.

[a700hitter]

And iortiz swoops in with a reach-around. Get a room please. This board is turning unreadable.

 

The Sox lost. Some people saw it coming early in the season. Others stuck their heads in the sand and told the complainers to stfu. We get it.

 

Now, can we all move forward please and quit it with the "I told you so's."

 

There's way better crap to talk about than what is currently on here.

Start talking. The accountability and FO and management change issues have been almost completely decided by the owners. We need to see who the manager will be. The discussion of wish lists for next season has been underway for a couple of weeks already. Mine is posted. What's your wish list for 2012?

[seabeachfred]

Am I a vet? Oh boy I hope so!!!! Shame on you example for not mentioning me!!!

 

I rub people the wrong way sometimes, thats ok.....The only person I am supposed to rub the right way is......ahh nevermind.

 

I am a realist also, I am brash.....but I call it like I see it, even if what I see is not what other die hards see it.

 

I was born in Boston, I love the RedSox....I am a die hard, but I am not a fanboy, and I am not a homer.

 

When they suck, I call it as it is.

 

I wonder if those people who get on us for speaking what we know to the truth think that we really enjoy knocking the Red Sox. We don't, but how can a fan stomach what happened this past September without having just a little bile in their stomach? You know, on that other board many of us posted on it got so hot that the board was split into two forums---the Realists or Jacobins as we called ourselves, and the Pollyannas or Ball Washers as they were referred to. Hard to fathom how those types will not allow us to have our say. We certainly weren't angry in 2004 or 2007 were we? This year was miserable for all Red Sox fans; some can take it with a grain of salt, others can't. I can't, and I want to see how the front office rectifies it this winter off season.

 

I heard Cherington on ESPN and though talk is cheap I was impressed with the man. You might remember SCM that when our old friend Epstein went gorilla on us in the fall of 2005Cherington took over for that hiatus and together with that advisor whose name I keep forgetting made that blockbuster trade for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell---a trade Epstein later admitted he would not have made. That trade won us the 2007 World Series two years later so for that reason I want to cut the new GM some real slack and give a chance to right the ship that took on water while Epstein fiddled in his last years in Boston.

[seabeachfred]

You, me and iortiz and a few others are realists. People on this board criticize us and ask us to be "more measured" in our views, but we don't run the team. Those people who run the team are blowing up FO and onfield management and there will be more to come. I am pretty sure that they know what they are doing. We have been 100% right about what needed to be done management-wise this off-season, yet we are still scoffed at as being negative. Unbelievable! What we witnessed this September was the worst collapse in Red Sox history. It couldn't have been more negative. There is no way to sugar coat what happened, and it wasn't going to be addressed with a few minor tweaks. I am glad to see the owners acting with a sense of urgency and making some big changes.

 

BTW IMO there have been signs that this organization has not been going in the right direction for a few years already. Some of us negative nuts have been posting those thoughts. Maybe if the sycophants in the press had been a little more honest and critical and openly questioned the FO all along (like they should), the FO may have examined their actions a little more critically along the way. Instead the press acted like a Red Sox PR department until disaster struck and now they are hammering them for things like conditioning, beer drinking etc. -- all of which have been issues for more than a season.

 

700, I'd like those people who think those of us who are critical of what went down this year to tell us just how we are supposed to act in the face of the recent debacle. I was off this board for over three years when I got into a snit with a couple of jokers from a since defunct Dodger board and thought it best if I made myself scarce for awhile. For that reason I don't want to start coming on too strong, but I have to tell you that on that other board I post on it split in two because we had the same breakdown we have here---one camp not willing to allow a mismash season to go without rebuttal and the other willing to accept the party line that things will get better because the front office says it will.

 

The FO and the media were complicit in papering over the problems that many of us saw with clarity early in the season and we don't want a replay of this again. Every time I go in my Red Sox baseball room I cringe looking at those pictures and asking myself how the hell could they just suck as they did. What those other people must realize is that I'm sure, you, SCM and the rest of the tough talking posters are literally dying inside to see what happened to our team. Someone mentioned WS or bust is our motto; it isn't mine. What I would like is to see us win an AL East Divison for a change and then take our chances. We've won exactly ONE the past 16 years and that is as bogus as anything I can think of.

[a700hitter]

Someone mentioned WS or bust is our motto; it isn't mine. What I would like is to see us win an AL East Divison for a change and then take our chances. We've won exactly ONE the past 16 years and that is as bogus as anything I can think of.

It's not my motto either, but in 2008 the Sox had a kick ass team. With a little reinforcement from the FO, that team wins the Division. I wasn't complaining that we didn't win the World Series or get to the WS. I don't think they should have lost the Division to Tampa. They didn't go hard enough after the Division-- not the GM, not the manager. I think losing the division ultimately cost them a World Championship, because the Sox would have tortured Philly's pitching.

 

We agree that winning 1 Division during the Theo years is nothing to brag about. Duquette also won a Division title. Theo doesn't deserve all of the homage that he has been paid in this forum.

[User Name]

I wonder if those people who get on us for speaking what we know to the truth think that we really enjoy knocking the Red Sox. We don't, but how can a fan stomach what happened this past September without having just a little bile in their stomach? You know, on that other board many of us posted on it got so hot that the board was split into two forums---the Realists or Jacobins as we called ourselves, and the Pollyannas or Ball Washers as they were referred to. Hard to fathom how those types will not allow us to have our say. We certainly weren't angry in 2004 or 2007 were we? This year was miserable for all Red Sox fans; some can take it with a grain of salt, others can't. I can't, and I want to see how the front office rectifies it this winter off season.

 

I heard Cherington on ESPN and though talk is cheap I was impressed with the man. You might remember SCM that when our old friend Epstein went gorilla on us in the fall of 2005Cherington took over for that hiatus and together with that advisor whose name I keep forgetting made that blockbuster trade for Josh Beckett and Mike Lowell---a trade Epstein later admitted he would not have made. That trade won us the 2007 World Series two years later so for that reason I want to cut the new GM some real slack and give a chance to right the ship that took on water while Epstein fiddled in his last years in Boston.

 

And iortiz swoops in with a reach-around. Get a room please. This board is turning unreadable.

 

The Sox lost. Some people saw it coming early in the season. Others stuck their heads in the sand and told the complainers to stfu. We get it.

 

Now, can we all move forward please and quit it with the "I told you so's."

 

There's way better crap to talk about than what is currently on here.

 

This is what you need to do.

 

You're welcome.

[iortiz]

Since this is the "This is need to be said" thread, I don't see anything wrong what SCM33, A700 seabeachfred or me just said.

So... If you don't like our opinions, you can move forward and read other threads or something.

 

BTW nothing personal

[User Name]

I can state my opinion as well. As i have. Nothing personal.

[mvp 78]

The season ended three weeks ago. If you want to continue patting yourself on the back for the whole offseason, go for it. I just think it's boring.

[example1]

700' date=' I'd like those people who think those of us who are critical of what went down this year to tell us just how we are supposed to act in the face of the recent debacle. I was off this board for over three years when I got into a snit with a couple of jokers from a since defunct Dodger board and thought it best if I made myself scarce for awhile. For that reason I don't want to start coming on too strong, but I have to tell you that on that other board I post on it split in two because we had the same breakdown we have here---one camp not willing to allow a mismash season to go without rebuttal and the other willing to accept the party line that things will get better [b']because the front office says it will[/b].

 

There's the problem right there. It will get better because the team had a collapse of epic proportions--which is extremely unlikely to happen again--and because they actually have good players on the team. It has nothing to do with the FO saying that they will do better--anyone with any knowledge of baseball will put the Sox as a top 5 team going into the season next year. I can't predict the future, but history tells me the ownership will put a very good team on the field next year. That's happened consistently.

 

It is disrespectful to the intelligence of other posters here to say that it is simply a matter of buying some stupid party line.

 

I thought Theo Epstein was a good GM. I think that the ownership thought he was a good GM. Plenty of baseball people think he was a good GM. The Cubs bent over backwards to get him because they think he'll be a good baseball executive. Clearly this is something that can be at least debated. It isn't cut and dry. No need to pretend it is. Just stop it.

 

The FO and the media were complicit in papering over the problems that many of us saw with clarity early in the season and we don't want a replay of this again. Every time I go in my Red Sox baseball room I cringe looking at those pictures and asking myself how the hell could they just suck as they did. What those other people must realize is that I'm sure, you, SCM and the rest of the tough talking posters are literally dying inside to see what happened to our team.

 

I care about the Sox too. Enough to have been consistently posting on this site for 6 years. The collapse hurt all of us, but this is sports, not real life. It sucks when the Sox lose, especially when they collapse.

 

However, being hurt about the consequences and demanding swift retribution are two different issues. Being more hurt does not logically equate with correctly demandingmore retribution. One does not follow the other. That's what I mean by "measured" response. The response should be based on the 'facts on the ground', not by the emotions inside. Emotions are illogical.

 

Someone mentioned WS or bust is our motto; it isn't mine. What I would like is to see us win an AL East Divison for a change and then take our chances. We've won exactly ONE the past 16 years and that is as bogus as anything I can think of.

 

Is it as bogus as not winning a WS for 86 years? Stop with the hyperbole. There are plenty of things to bitch about in life. They haven't won enough AL East titles for your liking? They've made the playoffs more and won more games than every team BUT ONE since 2003. They've won more WS titles than any other team.

 

It literally might as hard to win the AL East as it is to win the World Series. Do you think the Cardinals or Rangers could win the AL East this year? How about the Giants last year? Winning the AL East is not the prize. It just isn't.

 

Would you be happier if they won two AL East titles but didn't make the playoffs aside from that?

 

Ridiculous.

 

 

It is time to put this issue to rest, as far as I'm concerned. 2012 has plenty to offer and the team is still good.