2009-2010 Offseason Thread

[italstallianion]

I agree with Imperial. I looked up the stats but was too lazy to put them all in. Anyway, Cameron can play more positions and can play much better defense than Damon, ranging from range to speed and to arm strength. While Damon has more OBP, Cameron is more powerful and they can both steal bases. Cameron also draws a fair amount of walks, and while Damon walks more, the fact that Cameron also draws walks is important because it seems to go unnoticed.

 

While Damon and Cameron seem to be similar players in terms of overall worth, I believe that Cameron matches up with the Red Sox needs more than Damon. First of all, Cameron can play defense which we need. With Damon, Hermida, Ellsbury and Drew we'd need to sit only one, so the defense would be Hermida, Ellsbury, Drew and they are all four lefties. With Cameron instead of Damon, we'd have a defense of Ellsbury, Cameron, Drew, which is a much better overall defense because Cameron > Damon AND because we can more efficiently use Ellsbury in left than Center. And, we have a right handed bat in the mix as well.

 

While we have some speed and OBP, I feel that we need a power bat more than we need an OBP machine. Granted, Cameron isn't a star power bat, but he adds pop to the lineup and as a righty should love to play pepper off the Monster. His HR numbers may stay similar but his doubles should increase. I think that Cameron gives us more opportunities to balance the lineup L/R and speed/power than Damon.

 

This is comparing value at the same price, obviously Damon would be more valuable at the lower projected price. I also like Cameron's ability to age better than Damon and I think he's more reliable.

 

I can't believe I made an entire post about Damon without mentioning that he left the Sox fanbase over money the first time. Well until now anyways.

[a700hitter]

The last 6 years is a rather curious time frame. Even so, over the last six years Damon's averaged a 114 OPS+ and Cameron's averaged a 111 OPS+. No matter what sample size you use, they're similar offensive threats.

 

And just as an aside, it's incredible how consistent Cameron has been. He's averaged a 111 OPS+ over the last six years, he had a 111 OPS+ last year and a 111 OPS+ the year before.

I picked 6 years, because i didn't want to limit it to the last 4 years at Yankee Stadium. You are ignoring the OBP numbers which are significantly different over the last 4 or 6 years. For a top of the lineup guy with speed that translates into runs. There is a reason that Damon is a top of the order hitter and Cameron is not. Damon is the superior offensive player all things considered IMO.

[italstallianion]

I picked 6 years' date=' because i didn't want to limit it to the last 4 years at Yankee Stadium. You are ignoring the OBP numbers which are significantly different over the last 4 or 6 years. For a top of the lineup guy with speed that translates into runs. There is a reason that Damon is a top of the order hitter and Cameron is not. Damon is the superior offensive player all things considered IMO.[/quote']

 

 

We don't need Cameron to be a top of the order hitter. If we needed a top of the order hitter then you'd be right about Damon. But we don't, and you aren't.

[a700hitter]

I also like Cameron's ability to age better than Damon and I think he's more reliable.

Are you a genetecist?

[26 to 6]

It is possible that the Mets will find themselves in a fight to not be last place in the NL East. Their top pick is reportedly now John Smoltz... They could be asking him to be their #3. Man that bullpen is going to be over worked

When healthy they have a potentially solid lineup, just their pitching is a disaster aside from Santana. Thankfully they pitch in that pitcher's paradise to mask how bad their staff really is. But every year I think the Mets are the biggest crap-shoot, they could be a first or second place team with their ability, or they can be a last place team.

 

It has to do with a strict budget after spending an incredible amount of money the previous offseason. I think it's reasonable.

Yeah but they're the Yankees, it's not exactly like they're hurting for money. Instead we gst stcuk with Randy Winn, when for a few more dollars Damon gives us a better chance at another championship. I thought that was the bottom line.

[a700hitter]

We don't need Cameron to be a top of the order hitter. If we needed a top of the order hitter then you'd be right about Damon. But we don't' date=' and you aren't.[/quote']OBP helps produce runs no matter where you bat in the order, and I am never wrong. Where have you been.

[Imperial59]

I picked 6 years' date=' because i didn't want to limit it to the last 4 years at Yankee Stadium. You are ignoring the OBP numbers which are significantly different over the last 4 or 6 years. For a top of the lineup guy with speed that translates into runs. There is a reason that Damon is a top of the order hitter and Cameron is not. Damon is the superior offensive player all things considered IMO.[/quote']

 

I think you're ignoring the fact that Cameron's played four of his last six years in PetCo Park and Shea Stadium while Damon's played that entire time in Fenway and Yankee Stadium. The park adjusted stats have them nearly identical offensive players.

 

And I don't think there's any debate which one is better defensively.

[a700hitter]

I think you're ignoring the fact that Cameron's played four of his last six years in PetCo Park and Shea Stadium while Damon's played that entire time in Fenway and Yankee Stadium. The park adjusted stats have them nearly identical offensive players.

 

And I don't think there's any debate which one is better defensively.

There is no Adjusted OBP.

[Imperial59]

There is no Adjusted OBP.

 

There are park factors for hits and walks though. It wouldn't be too hard to tabulate a rough park adjusted OBP.

[a700hitter]

As much as you'd only like to discuss OBP because it benefits your argument' date=' it's not the only aspect of hitting[/quote']Damon is better in every important offensive category. In many categories, Cameron is close. He is not close in OBP, and Damon is a significantly better base stealer. He's the better overall offensive player IMO.

[Imperial59]

Damon is better in every important offensive category. In many categories' date=' Cameron is close. He is not close in OBP, and Damon is a significantly better base stealer. He's the better overall offensive player IMO.[/quote']

 

If you run the park factors for hits and walks last year, it suggests that Cameron would have had a .354 OBP last year in a park that was neutral for hits and walks and a Damon would have had a .355 OBP in a park that was neutral for hits and walks. Damon's career SB% is .796 compared to Cameron's .783. And as I already pointed out, Cameron's averaged 4.08 pitches per plate appearance over the last five years and Damons' averaged 4.06. And over the last 6 years, Cameron's had a 111 OPS+ compared to Damon's 114 OPS+.

 

Looks like the two are very similar offensive players with a large difference in their defensive abilities.

[a700hitter]

If you run the park factors for hits and walks last year, it suggests that Cameron would have had a .354 OBP last year in a park that was neutral for hits and walks and a Damon would have had a .355 OBP in a park that was neutral for hits and walks. Damon's career SB% is .796 compared to Cameron's .783. And as I already pointed out, Cameron's averaged 4.08 pitches per plate appearance over the last five years and Damons' averaged 4.06. And over the last 6 years, Cameron's had a 111 OPS+ compared to Damon's 114 OPS+.

 

Looks like the two are very similar offensive players with a large difference in their defensive abilities.

But oddly, Damon is superior in every category, and it is only by Park adjustments that Cameron gets close in many categories. Don't park adjustments fluctuate from year to year? For instance, park adjustments for Homers had Shea as #9 in 2008, 21st in 2007 and dead last #30 in 2006. Some of it might have to do with the caliber of teams inhabiting the ballpark.

[Imperial59]

But oddly' date=' Damon is superior in every category, [b']and it is only by Park adjustments[/b] that Cameron gets close in many categories.

 

Park adjusted stats are the only fair way to compare a guy who's been hitting in Fenway/Yankee Stadium to a guy who's been hitting in Shea Stadium, PetCo Park and Miller Park. And like I've demonstrated multiple times now, they show the two as eerily similar offensive players.

 

Don't park adjustments fluctuate from year to year? For instance' date=' park adjustments for Homers had Shea as #9 in 2008, 21st in 2007 and dead last #30 in 2006. Some of it might have to do with the caliber of teams inhabiting the ballpark.[/quote']

 

Park adjustments do fluctuate year to year, but they're neutral to the caliber of offense that plays in them. It compares what every hitter that hits in the park has done compared to how each one of those hitters have hit away from the park.

[italstallianion]

OBP helps produce runs no matter where you bat in the order' date=' [b']and I am never wrong.[/b] Where have you been.

 

 

 

No.

[Imperial59]

No.

 

700 is right that him always believing he is right has been a theme lately. In his words yesterday,

 

Am I 100% certain about my theory? No' date=' but I am very much convinced that I am right.[/quote']

[a700hitter]

Park adjustments do fluctuate year to year' date=' but they're neutral to the caliber of offense that plays in them. It compares what every hitter that hits in the park has done compared to how each one of those hitters have hit away from the park.[/quote']This fluctuation is why they are imprecise. How could existing ballparks fluctuate with regard to their effect on offensive production? They don't change the dimensions from year to year. The only variable is the weather, and we know how inconsistent that can be. Also, every player doesn't play in every ballpark the same amount of times with unbalance schedules and inter-league play

[a700hitter]

700 is right that him always believing he is right has been a theme lately. In his words yesterday' date='[/quote']It would have been more effective if you had quoted me on an issue when I was wrong about something.

[a700hitter]

No.

But you can predict the relative rates at which two people age.

[italstallianion]

But you can predict the relative rates at which two people age.

 

 

That doesn't sound like a retort from someone who's still confident that they are 100% right. Sounds like someone finally realised that they aren't always right. Glad you figured that out at your age, even though it took you quite a long time...

[italstallianion]

But you can predict the relative rates at which two people age.

 

 

And no. I said I think Cameron is aging better than Damon, meaning that he plays and seems younger than Damon even though they are the same age. Where you got that I "can predict the relative rates at which two people age" from what I said I don't know. If you're going to continue to pull misunderstandings out of your a**, then I suggest that you stand up.

 

 

 

Edit: Last line was a spoof of a Family Guy line. I was going for a sternly worded response rather than being a pompous ass.

[a700hitter]

That doesn't sound like a retort from someone who's still confident that they are 100% right. Sounds like someone finally realised that they aren't always right. Glad you figured that out at your age' date=' even though it took you quite a long time...[/quote']You got me there. I've made a lot of mistakes throughout the years. If you learn half the things that I've managed to forget, you'll do very well for yourself.

[a700hitter]

And no. I said I think Cameron is aging better than Damon' date=' meaning that he plays and seems younger than Damon even though they are the same age. [/quote']So, Cameron plays younger? What does that mean? Does Cameron have a healthy glow and less wrinkles?

[italstallianion]

So' date=' Cameron plays younger? What does that mean? Does Cameron have a healthy glow and less wrinkles?[/quote']

 

 

 

No, it means that he doesn't play the field like he's 37. He also seems more durable because he's able to stay on the field more.

[Spudboy]

You got me there. I've made a lot of mistakes throughout the years. If you learn half the things that I've managed to forget' date=' you'll do very well for yourself.[/quote']

 

*sigh*

 

Now I understand the phrase "Youth is wasted on the young".

[CanadianSox]

Yankees sign Randy Winn. There goes Damon's hopes of returning.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4863701

[Imperial59]

This fluctuation is why they are imprecise. How could existing ballparks fluctuate with regard to their effect on offensive production? They don't change the dimensions from year to year. The only variable is the weather' date=' and we know how inconsistent that can be. Also, every player doesn't play in every ballpark the same amount of times with unbalance schedules and inter-league play[/quote']

 

They fluctuate due to a variety of reasons. Differences in weather, renovations, changes in how fields are kept, and like any stat there is a degree of just random fluctuation due to chance.

 

I think it's a very safe to say that Cameron's offensive totals were impacted negatively by hitting in Shea, PetCo and Miller Park though. And I think it's very safe to say that Damon's offensive totals were helped by hitting in Fenway and Yankee Stadium. And so it would be a logical conclusion that it's inaccurate to compare their raw offensive statistics without making some kind of adjustment for the parks they were hitting in.

[Imperial59]

It would have been more effective if you had quoted me on an issue when I was wrong about something.

 

We both know that would be impossible 700. You are never wrong.

[a700hitter]

They fluctuate due to a variety of reasons. Differences in weather, renovations, changes in how fields are kept, and like any stat there is a degree of just random fluctuation due to chance.

 

I think it's a very safe to say that Cameron's offensive totals were impacted negatively by hitting in Shea, PetCo and Miller Park though. And I think it's very safe to say that Damon's offensive totals were helped by hitting in Fenway and Yankee Stadium. And so it would be a logical conclusion that it's inaccurate to compare their raw offensive statistics without making some kind of adjustment for the parks they were hitting in.

Well, after this season, we will get the chance to compare how Cameron does at Fenway to how Damon did. Of course, we will have to factor in weather and climate changes.

[Imperial59]

Well' date=' after this season, we will get the chance to compare how Cameron does at Fenway to how Damon did. [b'] Of course, we will have to factor in weather and climate changes.[/b]

 

 

Fenway will most likely benefit his offensive production. Do you disagree, or are we arguing just for the sake of arguing at this point?

[a700hitter]

 

Fenway will most likely benefit his offensive production. Do you disagree, or are you arguing just to argue at this point?

I was joking, but I am still not convinced that Cameron is as good as Damon offensively.