Official 2009-2010 Hot Stove season thread

[yankees228]

They wouldn't be the most front-running, MYOPIC, clueless, fans in sports if they actually took an objective look at things. I actually have come to like their obtuse thinking. It makes it MUCH, MUCH sweeter when we beat them...

 

They can talk their crap all they want....

 

Lester/Beckett/Lackey/Dice-K/and Clay...with Wakes in reserve, is EASILY the best starting 5 in baseball..and it isn't even close. The Red Sox bullpen is also the DEEPEST bullpen in baseball.. and this cannot be argued either. Bring it Yankee fans.. I have plenty of stats to back up my contention.

 

I can admit the Yankees have a better lineup...as of this second.

 

Should the Red Sox add Gonzalez..then we will have one heated discussion... should they subsequently add Bay or Holliday... Red Sox will have the best lineup...staff...and bullpen in baseball.

 

While the Red Sox have a deeper bullpen than the Yankees, it's worth noting that one of the main reasons the Yankees pulled away last summer was because of their dominant 1-2 punch at the back end (which they should have some variation of this year).

[Dipre]

While the Red Sox have a deeper bullpen than the Yankees' date=' it's worth noting that one of the main reasons the Yankees pulled away last summer was because of their dominant 1-2 punch at the back end (which they should have some variation of this year).[/quote']

 

Bullpens are a wash.

 

Yanks have the offense.

 

Red Sox have the rotation.

[yankees228]

Games 6 & 7' date=' 2004 ALCS, WoW that mystique and aura worked off...go home field![/quote']

 

Completely relevant to the discussion. Way to go!

 

The fact is, no one is saying that the Yankees can't lose at home, but they'd rather be at home than on the road.

[example1]

History has shown that a payroll difference of that size often does not dictate the standings. If the Yankees win the division, it will be about more than just their payroll gap over the Red Sox.

 

They Yankees are paying a number of their best players more than any player on the Sox make. Those players (like CC, A-Rod, and Teixeira) are better than comparable players on the Sox (with the possible exception of Youkilis vs. Teixeira). The payroll makes all the difference. Without the payroll those players would be elsewhere.

[Dipre]

They Yankees are paying a number of their best players more than any player on the Sox make. Those players (like CC' date=' A-Rod, and Teixeira) are better than comparable players on the Sox (with the possible exception of Youkilis vs. Teixeira). The payroll makes all the difference. Without the payroll those players would be elsewhere.[/quote']

 

Specially Teixeira himself, who would be hitting fourth behind Youkilis.

[yankees228]

They Yankees are paying a number of their best players more than any player on the Sox make. Those players (like CC' date=' A-Rod, and Teixeira) are better than comparable players on the Sox (with the possible exception of Youkilis vs. Teixeira). The payroll makes all the difference. Without the payroll those players would be elsewhere.[/quote']

 

I never claimed that it didn't give them an advantage. That is undeniable. But there is a reason that, when you look at each division, payroll doesn't always dictate the standings, even when the gaps are fairly wide. There are a lot of other factors involved.

 

Remember, at the ASB, the Red Sox were three games ahead of the Yankees. Obviously they can compete, and if they can stay in first place three and half months into the season, there is no reason not to think they're capable of doing it for two and a half more months. However, the Yankees pulled away for more reasons than just the money they spent. Hughes emerged as the set up man and really solidified the bullpen. A-Rod blew any realistic expectations out of the water in the second half. The Yankees, aside from spending money, did numerous other things right this year (including benefitting from some luck). All of those things combined are the reason they won the division.

[Plumpamania]

Completely relevant to the discussion. Way to go!

 

The fact is, no one is saying that the Yankees can't lose at home, but they'd rather be at home than on the road.

 

 

Agreed, and what I'm saying is that road games don't really matter. The Sox last year did play badly on the road in comparison to their home games. However, once you make it to the dance, it doesn't matter.

[jacksonianmarch]

They wouldn't be the most front-running, MYOPIC, clueless, fans in sports if they actually took an objective look at things. I actually have come to like their obtuse thinking. It makes it MUCH, MUCH sweeter when we beat them...

 

They can talk their crap all they want....

 

Lester/Beckett/Lackey/Dice-K/and Clay...with Wakes in reserve, is EASILY the best starting 5 in baseball..and it isn't even close. The Red Sox bullpen is also the DEEPEST bullpen in baseball.. and this cannot be argued either. Bring it Yankee fans.. I have plenty of stats to back up my contention.

 

I can admit the Yankees have a better lineup...as of this second.

 

Should the Red Sox add Gonzalez..then we will have one heated discussion... should they subsequently add Bay or Holliday... Red Sox will have the best lineup...staff...and bullpen in baseball.

 

 

Lets put it this way Mr. Ed. The Yankees were far and away the better team in 2009, FAR and AWAY. And they got better offensively, defensive, and in the rotation. The sox, were the far inferior team, and they got better in the pitching category and in the defensive category, but got worse in the offensive category.

[Dipre]

Lets put it this way Mr. Ed. The Yankees were far and away the better team in 2009' date=' FAR and AWAY. And they got better offensively, defensive, and in the rotation. The sox, were the far inferior team, and they got better in the pitching category and in the defensive category, but got worse in the offensive category.[/quote']

 

I call ********.

 

An 8-game difference for a team whose primary concern was pitching and defense, not offense. The 2009 Sox hit more homers and cored more runs than the 2007 version but also allowed a hell of a lot more runs because of injuries and ineffectiveness in the pitching staff.

 

Your delusions of grandeur are interesting, but unwarranted.

 

The Yankees are the better team, but the difference is not as big as you say. Specially when objective analysis contradicts absolutely everything you say.

[jacksonianmarch]

NY was down 5 games to the sox prior to ARod's return. By the time the Yankees left the sox for dead in the division and eased back, they were 10 games up. And we did that with essentially a 3 man rotation for the last 2 months of the season. Adding in an innings eater like Vazquez will improve that rotation.

 

I agree that the sox improved in the pitching department. But their lineup took away their most powerful bat and replaced him with a guy who actually strikes out more, hits for less power and walks less.

[Dipre]

NY was down 5 games to the sox prior to ARod's return. By the time the Yankees left the sox for dead in the division and eased back, they were 10 games up. And we did that with essentially a 3 man rotation for the last 2 months of the season. Adding in an innings eater like Vazquez will improve that rotation.

 

I agree that the sox improved in the pitching department. But their lineup took away their most powerful bat and replaced him with a guy who actually strikes out more, hits for less power and walks less.

 

Whole season of Victor Martinez plus a reasonable solution to the corner infield issue. (Maybe even Lowell himself playing 1B ) and the Sox don't lose nearly as much offensive production as you state. As i posted before, this year's Sox were superior in almost every offensive category to the 2007 WS winning team, but their pitching was inferior. Losing Bay is not such a big deal. Getting Lackey and a healthy Dice-K is a big deal.

 

If anything, the Sox have the flexibility to get a bat if they truly need it, but the rotation is set. Some people may not like to hear this, but objectively speaking, the 2010 version of the Red Sox, health permitting, will be much better than the 2009 version.

[example1]

NY was down 5 games to the sox prior to ARod's return. By the time the Yankees left the sox for dead in the division and eased back, they were 10 games up. And we did that with essentially a 3 man rotation for the last 2 months of the season. Adding in an innings eater like Vazquez will improve that rotation.

 

I agree that the sox improved in the pitching department. But their lineup took away their most powerful bat and replaced him with a guy who actually strikes out more, hits for less power and walks less.

 

Jesus, you need to just stop. Your team won the WS, do you really have to puff up to brag about how many miles ahead of the Red Sox the Yankees were? It's pathetic. It's not enough to watch your team celebrate on the field, you have to revise history to pretend that the Yankees completely dominated the Sox through and through.

 

The Yankees had a great 2nd half and their highly paid stars stayed healthy and came through. Great, congrats, you had a great season last year Jacko. You really are awesome.

 

By X W-L they were very close. Head to head they were very close. The Yankees were the better team, but they weren't miles ahead. They were just better. Be happy with that.

[SoxSport]

I still think there's a chance they will go after Beltre if the price is right. That will seal their defense.

There is also talk about Branyon at 1B, though his OBP isn't what they like. And Nady figures to be an option in the OF.

[Dipre]

Jesus, you need to just stop. Your team won the WS, do you really have to puff up to brag about how many miles ahead of the Red Sox the Yankees were? It's pathetic. It's not enough to watch your team celebrate on the field, you have to revise history to pretend that the Yankees completely dominated the Sox through and through.

 

The Yankees had a great 2nd half and their highly paid stars stayed healthy and came through. Great, congrats, you had a great season last year Jacko. You really are awesome.

 

By X W-L they were very close. Head to head they were very close. The Yankees were the better team, but they weren't miles ahead. They were just better. Be happy with that.

 

No.

 

It's not enough.

 

He has to run his mouth, make s*** up, and when called out on it, others are "confrontational" and the "mods need to take part".

[SoxSport]

The Yankees played a bit over their heads last year--especially in the playoffs, where their pitching overachieved. The opposite was true of the Red Sox last year. Call it an off-year.

 

This year, I still like the Yankees on paper. I also like their manager better than Francona. Tito is a great guy, uses the whole team well, but he has a tendency to relax at times until September. Girardi is more intense, maybe because the pressure to win in NY is greater.

[Dipre]

The Yankees played a bit over their heads last year--especially in the playoffs, where their pitching overachieved. The opposite was true of the Red Sox last year. Call it an off-year.

 

This year, I still like the Yankees on paper. I also like their manager better than Francona. Tito is a great guy, uses the whole team well, but he has a tendency to relax at times until September. Girardi is more intense, maybe because the pressure to win in NY is greater.

 

Francona and Girardi are both pretty awful IMHO.

[SoxSport]

 

I agree that the sox improved in the pitching department. But their lineup took away their most powerful bat and replaced him with a guy who actually strikes out more, hits for less power and walks less.

 

First of all, they improved their defense, along with their pitching.

 

Offensively, they added VMart, which will make a big difference. Also improved their offense at SS. Kotchman will have to hit better playing regularly. And Ortiz can't disappear in April and May.That will be a big factor in determining if they deal early to upgrade their offense. They also have a pretty good bat in Lowell to replace. I'm betting Lowell gets a shot if he shows anything in ST.

 

I think the Red Sox are a team in transition. Not the old Ramirez-Ortiz team.

[Plumpamania]

I'd like to imagine that if Dice K isn't on the DL for 50% of the season, if Beckett isn't dealing with his health issues last year, if Drew's back didn't act up...if Lowell wasn't recovering from a more serious surgery than ARod so on and so forth and we were as lucky health wise as the Yankees, it would have been much closer.

 

Can someone explain to me how Matsui's and Damon's production is filled with Granderson and a ? in LF? There were no improvements (sorry I don't consider Vazquez an improvement) to the rotation or the pen...I'm confused how did the Yankees improve?

 

Please provide some sort of comparable explanation of how Cabrera, Damon and Matsui's production is filled with Granderson and Johnson.

 

Anyways.......yea.

[example1]

I still think there's a chance they will go after Beltre if the price is right. That will seal their defense.

There is also talk about Branyon at 1B, though his OBP isn't what they like. And Nady figures to be an option in the OF.

 

Where is there talk of Branyon? Link?

 

I think Beltre is the 3B version of Cameron. Both of them out perform their relatively shoddy offense with stellar defense.

 

I have to think that the Beltre deal has been hanging on the team's ability to move Mike Lowell. His surgery may be a setback, but I imagine other teams would take him off their hands even with his recovery, particularly if the Sox aren't looking for much in return and are willing to pay much of his salary.

[Spudboy]

Where is there talk of Branyon? Link?

 

I think Beltre is the 3B version of Cameron. Both of them out perform their relatively shoddy offense with stellar defense.

 

I have to think that the Beltre deal has been hanging on the team's ability to move Mike Lowell. His surgery may be a setback, but I imagine other teams would take him off their hands even with his recovery, particularly if the Sox aren't looking for much in return and are willing to pay much of his salary.

 

Branyon has been mentioned in the Globe and Herald within the last few days.

[jacksonianmarch]

I'd like to imagine that if Dice K isn't on the DL for 50% of the season, if Beckett isn't dealing with his health issues last year, if Drew's back didn't act up...if Lowell wasn't recovering from a more serious surgery than ARod so on and so forth and we were as lucky health wise as the Yankees, it would have been much closer.

 

Can someone explain to me how Matsui's and Damon's production is filled with Granderson and a ? in LF? There were no improvements (sorry I don't consider Vazquez an improvement) to the rotation or the pen...I'm confused how did the Yankees improve?

 

Please provide some sort of comparable explanation of how Cabrera, Damon and Matsui's production is filled with Granderson and Johnson.

 

Anyways.......yea.

 

Not acknowledging that Vazquez is an upgrade to the rotation is flat out stupid

[BoSox21]

Vazquez has been horribly inconsistent his entire career. Relax a bit before you start touting his greatness.

[example1]

Not acknowledging that Vazquez is an upgrade to the rotation is flat out stupid

 

An upgrade doesn't matter as much if it is from one guy who is very likely to get knocked around to a guy who is merely likely to get knocked around.

 

If 2009 Vazquez shows up I think he could be their #2. If he regresses toward his career averages (especially in the AL) you will be looking to upgrade the rotation at this time next year.

[SoxSport]

Regarding Vasquez, his record is he's a different pitcher in the AL. Not as good as the NL. If that's the case, he might not be much of an upgrade. He's RHd, so no advantage in Yankee Stadium. He cost the Yankees $8 mil in the deal, but they gave up expendable players.

 

I think the Red Sox are serious about Beltre, Lowell or no. I've written that they are about the same power-wise as last year--without Bay-- if Beltre can hit like Lowell. And much better defensively. Plus they get to keep Buchholz and Ellsbury. They might go as high as $9-10 mil/3 years for him. I'm not convinced they will go with Kotchman full-time at 1B. That will drop their power numbers.

[BoSox21]

bottom line, I'm far from optimistic about the offense this year without a bopper in the middle of the order

[Dipre]

bottom line' date=' I'm far from optimistic about the offense this year without a bopper in the middle of the order[/quote']

 

Agree with you here. But i'll be content with anything that is not Kotchman at 1B.

[SoxSport]

For links, I've found the best place is http://www.mlbtraderumors.com

[Dipre]

^Well most of us usually use that website, but thanks for sharing anyway, since maybe a couple posters/lurkers aren't very familiar with it.

[riverside sluggers]

Im confident that if not now, the Sox will get a big bat in July

[Dipre]

Im confident that if not now' date=' the Sox will get a big bat in July[/quote']

 

Every sign seems to point towards that being the team's thinking.