Theo wants Felix Hernandez

[BSN07]

Keep in mind that there aren't many teams out there willing to put up $15-20M per year for an ace starter. Maybe NY' date=' maybe LA, maybe Chicago. The big markets. Boston? They seem to prefer home-growns.Though Beckett and Pap will soon be up for extension. Eventually, you have to pay the piper.[/quote']

Beckett will get extended this off season. Papelbon will be gone this off season or next.

we are talking about a generational talent at 23 yrs old who is just starting to locate franchise stuff. This is a guy who you need two can't miss prospects for. And I am sorry' date=' but the sox dont have 2 can't miss guys right now who arent locked up. The Yankees dont either unless they deal from their current MLB team. If Seattle dealt Felix right now, the return would be dumbfounding.[/quote']

 

Name the last high profile prospect to come up for the Sox and not work out.....Craig Hansen? The Red Sox are turning out quality players at a rampant pace.

[a700hitter]

Beckett will get extended this off season. Papelbon will be gone this off season or next.

 

 

Name the last high profile prospect to come up for the Sox and not work out.....Craig Hansen? The Red Sox are turning out quality players at a rampant pace.

Several top prospects have died on the vine in the minors and not made it to the majors. I would hope that the guys that get promoted to the majors can compete.

 

I'm not sure that I understand this thread. We are supposed to get enthusiastic about Red Sox interest in Felix in the upcoming off season with a third of this season left in which only 2/5ths of our rotation is functioning at an acceptable level? I'd be excited if we landed Felix last week. I'm not interested in some pipe dream about next season. Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay were available. We made a move on Felix and we got none of them. That's the story. That's what we should be talking about. We have a 4 game series coming up in Yankee stadium a week after the A's smacked our pitching around in Fenway. That was embarrassing. Two of the games at Yankee Stadium will be started by Smoltz and Buchholz. What is their combined ERA? We will be lucky to win two games in that series. I decided to go to the McCartney concert rather than watch the Yankees administer a brutal beating to old man Smoltz. I could give a s*** about Felix right now, because we will not have to face him until next season.

[Dipre]

Several top prospects have died on the vine in the minors and not made it to the majors. I would hope that the guys that get promoted to the majors can compete.

 

I'm not sure that I understand this thread. We are supposed to get enthusiastic about Red Sox interest in Felix in the upcoming off season with a third of this season left in which only 2/5ths of our rotation is functioning at an acceptable level? I'd be excited if we landed Felix last week. I'm not interested in some pipe dream about next season. Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay were available. We made a move on Felix and we got none of them. That's the story. That's what we should be talking about. We have a 4 game series coming up in Yankee stadium a week after the A's smacked our pitching around in Fenway. That was embarrassing. Two of the games at Yankee Stadium will be started by Smoltz and Buchholz. What is their combined ERA? We will be lucky to win two games in that series. I decided to go to the McCartney concert rather than watch the Yankees administer a brutal beating to old man Smoltz. I could give a s*** about Felix right now, because we will not have to face him until next season.

 

Sweet Jesus dude.

[a700hitter]

Sweet Jesus dude.

The Sox are playing the Yankees this week. Nothing else matters, especially not some wet dreams about the Hot Stove season.

[Dipre]

The Sox are playing the Yankees this week. Nothing else matters' date=' especially not some wet dreams about the Hot Stove season. [/quote']

 

They shall get their asses kicked again.

[example1]

I'm not sure that I understand this thread. We are supposed to get enthusiastic about Red Sox interest in Felix in the upcoming off season with a third of this season left in which only 2/5ths of our rotation is functioning at an acceptable level? I'd be excited if we landed Felix last week. I'm not interested in some pipe dream about next season. Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay were available. We made a move on Felix and we got none of them. That's the story. That's what we should be talking about. We have a 4 game series coming up in Yankee stadium a week after the A's smacked our pitching around in Fenway. That was embarrassing. Two of the games at Yankee Stadium will be started by Smoltz and Buchholz. What is their combined ERA? We will be lucky to win two games in that series. I decided to go to the McCartney concert rather than watch the Yankees administer a brutal beating to old man Smoltz. I could give a s*** about Felix right now, because we will not have to face him until next season.

 

I can understand wanting to see McCartney rather than one of the 162 games the Sox play this year. However, I really can't believe you would avoid watching a Sox-Yankees game no matter who is the starter if you didn't have anything else to do. I've seen you here at much less interesting--or hopeful--match ups. You are experienced enough to know that anything can happen in those games.

 

 

I think that their attempt to land Hernandez speaks to the type of player that Theo would be willing to "sell the farm" for (not Halladay), and that it is interesting in that respect alone for those of us who try to understand the philosophy behind the decision making of this FO.

 

Any team with as much organizational and current MLB strength as the Red Sox would be willing to hold their prospects at to get a Pedro-potential starter at such a young age. They still have a great chance to win this year and will be competitive for a long time.

 

If they got Halladay and won the World Series would you give them a pass at the next trade deadline, or the one after that, if they decided not to overpay for a player?

[a700hitter]

I can understand wanting to see McCartney rather than one of the 162 games the Sox play this year. However, I really can't believe you would avoid watching a Sox-Yankees game no matter who is the starter if you didn't have anything else to do. I've seen you here at much less interesting--or hopeful--match ups. You are experienced enough to know that anything can happen in those games.

 

 

I think that their attempt to land Hernandez speaks to the type of player that Theo would be willing to "sell the farm" for (not Halladay), and that it is interesting in that respect alone for those of us who try to understand the philosophy behind the decision making of this FO.

 

Any team with as much organizational and current MLB strength as the Red Sox would be willing to hold their prospects at to get a Pedro-potential starter at such a young age. They still have a great chance to win this year and will be competitive for a long time.

 

If they got Halladay and won the World Series would you give them a pass at the next trade deadline, or the one after that, if they decided not to overpay for a player?

Cliff Lee went relatively cheap. We didn't get what we needed most-- a starting pitcher. Theo did his ******** menage a trois three way deadline trade which flops more often than it succeeds. He came up empty. If we got Halladay this year and won the series, no I would not give him a pass the following year. Why do you assume that criticizing a particular move or non-move is a condemnation of Theo. On balance the whole FO has done a good job over the last several seasons, but they could've done much better at this trading deadline. I didn't grade them an F. I gave them a B-, which in retrospect was too high. The B- was the result of getting a big name, but I don't think the essential needs were addressed. I'd go with a C+.

 

As for not wanting to see Smoltz vs. the Yankees, I would have taken my wife to the concert regardless of the matchup. However, I'm glad that I will be missing Smoltz' game if I had to mis one of the games. I have a very bad feeling about that game and teh CC vs. Buchholz matchup.

[TheKilo]

Lee went for four players, all of which have the potential to make Cleveland's MLB roster.

[162watch]

Felix is just a red sox type of player...he suits Boston in a great way...plus he is a wonderful addition. Who wouldnt want him on the Bo-Sox.

[a700hitter]

Felix is just a red sox type of player...he suits Boston in a great way...plus he is a wonderful addition. Who wouldnt want him on the Bo-Sox.

No one.

[jacksonianmarch]

Me!

[jacksonianmarch]

Beckett will get extended this off season. Papelbon will be gone this off season or next.

 

 

Name the last high profile prospect to come up for the Sox and not work out.....Craig Hansen? The Red Sox are turning out quality players at a rampant pace.

 

how bout Buchholz thus far. And Masterson wasnt lighting the world on fire

[Keeper]

Brandon Moss is another one.

[jacksonianmarch]

And I am not knocking the sox development team. But not everything they touch turns to gold

[162watch]

No one.

Ok...Felix has a .750 win loss percentage in 2009 as well as 2.78 ERA...he is a fantastic all star....

[SCM33]

Several top prospects have died on the vine in the minors and not made it to the majors. I would hope that the guys that get promoted to the majors can compete.

 

I'm not sure that I understand this thread. We are supposed to get enthusiastic about Red Sox interest in Felix in the upcoming off season with a third of this season left in which only 2/5ths of our rotation is functioning at an acceptable level? I'd be excited if we landed Felix last week. I'm not interested in some pipe dream about next season. Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay were available. We made a move on Felix and we got none of them. That's the story. That's what we should be talking about. We have a 4 game series coming up in Yankee stadium a week after the A's smacked our pitching around in Fenway. That was embarrassing. Two of the games at Yankee Stadium will be started by Smoltz and Buchholz. What is their combined ERA? We will be lucky to win two games in that series. I decided to go to the McCartney concert rather than watch the Yankees administer a brutal beating to old man Smoltz. I could give a s*** about Felix right now, because we will not have to face him until next season.

 

I echo these statements. Who f***ing cares if they wanted him, they didnt get him.

[example1]

Cliff Lee went relatively cheap. We didn't get what we needed most-- a starting pitcher. Theo did his ******** menage a trois three way deadline trade which flops more often than it succeeds. He came up empty. If we got Halladay this year and won the series' date=' no I would not give him a pass the following year. [b']Why do you assume that criticizing a particular move or non-move is a condemnation of Theo.[/b] On balance the whole FO has done a good job over the last several seasons, but they could've done much better at this trading deadline. I didn't grade them an F. I gave them a B-, which in retrospect was too high. The B- was the result of getting a big name, but I don't think the essential needs were addressed. I'd go with a C+.

 

I don't know why I would see you criticizing particular moves as condemnation of Theo... other than you aiming the crosshairs directly at him.

 

How could they have done much better at this trade deadline, AND potentially be involved in a deal for someone like Felix in the future? Similarily, how can you demand that they go for it now, and say that you won't give them a pass in the future if they do that? You want it both ways: win now, win in the future. Can you imagine where they would have been if they had followed your advice and traded Youkilis for Todd Helton a few years ago when they were struggling? Let's check in in 3 years when they are still competitive and Roy Halladay is a fading veteran and the Sox farm system is paying off dividends for the Sox.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Yankees have proven you can try to win now at all costs and then throw money at acute issues. It hasnt translated to world titles, but it has translated into a long sustained playoff run. THat is the only way to guarantee winning now and later. I think a700 is hoping for the sox to empty the bank on a guy who would be around for awhile without completely f***ing up the core of the team.

[Dipre]

The Yankees have proven you can try to win now at all costs and then throw money at acute issues. It hasnt translated to world titles' date=' but it has translated into a long sustained playoff run.[/b'] THat is the only way to guarantee winning now and later. I think a700 is hoping for the sox to empty the bank on a guy who would be around for awhile without completely f***ing up the core of the team.

 

The reason you play baseball is to win titles, not make the playoffs.

 

Besides that, that philosophy is flawed.

 

If that's seriously your opinion, you're even more dense than i thought.

[jacksonianmarch]

you improve your chances of winning a title if you make the playoffs on a consistent basis. Cmon man, dont be dumb. I dont like how the team has operated and would not ascribe to that philosophy if I was a GM, but you cannot argue with results. 4 titles, 6 world series appearances, 13 consecutive seasons in the playoffs.

[Dojji]

you improve your chances of winning a title if you make the playoffs on a consistent basis.

 

Actually I agree. The Yankees are more blighted by their inability to assemble a consistent pitching staff than their spending policies.

[Dipre]

you improve your chances of winning a title if you make the playoffs on a consistent basis. Cmon man' date=' dont be dumb. I dont like how the team has operated and would not ascribe to that philosophy if I was a GM, but you cannot argue with results. 4 titles, 6 world series appearances, 13 consecutive seasons in the playoffs.[/quote']

 

Actually I agree. The Yankees are more blighted by their inability to assemble a consistent pitching staff than their spending policies.

 

 

The Yankee dynasty of the 90's combined money AND homegrown talent.

 

The problem with throwing money at holes is the fact that you usually get players either past their prime, someone who will take time to adjust to a new organization, or a number of other problems that cannot be identified until after the player is an integral part of the team and has a contract you can't dump easily.

 

See: Lugo, Julio; Giambi, Jason ; Pavano, Carl.

 

Cmon man dont be dumb, you know throwing money at problems fixes little.

 

The fact that Doiji agrees with you further solidifies my point.

[example1]

The Yankees have proven you can try to win now at all costs and then throw money at acute issues. It hasnt translated to world titles' date=' but it has translated into a long sustained playoff run. [b']THat is the only way to guarantee winning now and later.[/b] I think a700 is hoping for the sox to empty the bank on a guy who would be around for awhile without completely f***ing up the core of the team.

 

I think you're overstating it a bit by saying that's the only way to guarantee winning now and later. Instead of throwing money at problems you can throw prospects at problems to get players you want even more than the best available free agents.

 

So far the Yankees have given A-Rod something like $120m and he has won ZERO titles for them. Giambi came and went with no titles, as did Abreu and Shefffield, recent versions of Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens.

 

The Yankees have a great club and they clearly put out a good product for their fans. I just think that Sox fans are being myopic to think that the Yankee method is the only way that can produce winning results. Yes, free agents are essential to any good team, but so are home-grown talents, a deep farm system/bench, a good bullpen, etc.,

 

We're all hoping the Sox could get someone who could be around for awhile without f***ing up the core of their team. Victor Martinez is a great pickup in that respect. He may take over for Tek after Tek is done, he may move into Lowell's spot on the roster if Lowell leaves--assuming they could resign VMart.

 

I just don't see how anyone could be overly disappointed with this Sox team over the past 6 years or so. The Yankees have their flaws DESPITE all the money they spend and they have had flaws consistently, year after year. No team is perfect but the Sox and Yanks are both very, very good franchises.

[a700hitter]

I don't know why I would see you criticizing particular moves as condemnation of Theo... other than you aiming the crosshairs directly at him.

I evaluate each acquisition/move on its merits. As I have said several times, I think the FO on balance has done an excellent job over the last several years. Does this sound like condemnation to you? Do you think Theo and Co. have been perfect? I don't and I can point to several screw ups that Theo has himself acknowledged. This year I think he could have done much better at the trading deadline.

 

IHow could they have done much better at this trade deadline' date=' AND potentially be involved in a deal for someone like Felix in the future? [/quote']He could have addressed this teams needs better. Cliff Lee would have been nice. Halladay for a package that would have included Buchholz (who inches away from prospect status to bust with each appearance) would have been nice. O'Cab for MIF depth would have been nice. A solid OF (no names) instead of a third first baseman (who will act as a mannequin) would have been nice. If he had done one or more of those things, he would have done a better job.

 

This whole "potentially be involved in a deal for someone like Felix in the future" is a pipe dream. He expressed interest in Felix and didn't get him. He doesn't have any right of first refusal, and his expression of interest didn't in any way improve his chances of obtaining Felix in the future.

I Similarily' date=' how can you demand that they go for it now, and say that you won't give them a pass in the future if they do that? You want it both ways: win now, win in the future. .[/quote']What are you talking about? You asked whether I would give Theo a pass next year if he got Halladay this year? My answer was "no". I evaluate and form an opinion on each move and transaction as it occurs in real time. Past moves have little or no relevance. That wouldn't even make sense. Why would I be less harsh about a bad deal because he had made good deals in past years? I wouldn't hold back praise for a good deal because of past bad deals. I don't what point you are trying to make.

[Dojji]

The Yankee dynasty of the 90's combined money AND homegrown talent.

 

The problem with throwing money at holes is the fact that you usually get players either past their prime, someone who will take time to adjust to a new organization, or a number of other problems that cannot be identified until after the player is an integral part of the team and has a contract you can't dump easily.

 

See: Lugo, Julio; Giambi, Jason ; Pavano, Carl.

 

Cmon man dont be dumb, you know throwing money at problems fixes little.

 

The fact that Doiji agrees with you further solidifies my point.

 

Kinda depends on how you do it. You can't just do that, and that's a big problem with what the Yankees are doing, but spending to build your core can be done as long as that's not ALL you are doing.

[example1]

What are you talking about? You asked whether I would give Theo a pass next year if he got Halladay this year? My answer was "no". I evaluate and form an opinion on each move and transaction as it occurs in real time. Past moves have little or no relevance. That wouldn't even make sense. Why would I be less harsh about a bad deal because he had made good deals in past years? I wouldn't hold back praise for a good deal because of past bad deals. I don't what point you are trying to make.

 

My point is that you will never be satisfied. The Red Sox have won 2 World Series since 2004. If they were to get Halladay this year and win, but lose next year and the year after, you would be bitching and moaning if they had the audacity to try to preserve/rebuild their farm system instead of trading for the next bit piece at the trade deadline in 2010 or 2011. You always want them to trade their talent for some known quantity to address some hole on the team that may or may not exist or which may or may not ultimately have a long term impact.

[a700hitter]

My point is that you will never be satisfied. The Red Sox have won 2 World Series since 2004. If they were to get Halladay this year and win' date=' but lose next year and the year after, you would be bitching and moaning if they had the audacity to try to preserve/rebuild their farm system instead of trading for the next bit piece at the trade deadline in 2010 or 2011. You always want them to trade their talent for some known quantity to address some hole on the team that may or may not exist or which may or may not ultimately have a long term impact.[/quote']You see that's the difference between you and me. You live in a future where we get Felix and all of our prospects become Red Sox stars. Now I learn that your future includes me bitching and moaning when the Sox are rebuilding. I live in the moment or at least in the current season. Good drafts are nice. I realize that some of the players will play for the Sox and some will be stars. Most will not make the Sox. I don't know enough to know which are which and neither do you with any degree of accuracy. I hope they keep the best ones and trade the rest for other talent. When the team is good, I am happy. When they are not good, I am not happy. Is there a problem with that?

[Dipre]

Kinda depends on how you do it. You can't just do that' date=' and that's a big problem with what the Yankees are doing, but spending to build your core can be done as long as that's not ALL you are doing.[/quote']

 

*sigh*

 

Roster flexibility.

 

If you keep throwing big money at big-ticket stars, if a couple of them flunk, (and they will), then you've set your roster up to be filled with immovable, non-productive pieces.

 

See: Yankess, New York.

[example1]

You see that's the difference between you and me. You live in a future where we get Felix and all of our prospects become Red Sox stars. Now I learn that your future includes me bitching and moaning when the Sox are rebuilding.

 

They don't need to rebuild if they don't sell all their younger players for a guy with 1.5 years left on his deal and who is entering his mid-30s. Not selling their young players means they shouldn't have to rebuild.

 

I live in the moment or at least in the current season. Good drafts are nice. I realize that some of the players will play for the Sox and some will be stars. Most will not make the Sox. I don't know enough to know which are which and neither do you with any degree of accuracy. I hope they keep the best ones and trade the rest for other talent.

 

1) Their drafts now are really quite different from the decades that you have been following the team. They are much more aggressive and are kind of breaking the mold in terms of being willing to pay above slot for good players. I expect more out of their drafts now than anyone should have reasonably expected in the past.

 

2) Whether you or I know whether these guys turn into stars or not, the Sox FO should have the clearest idea. Given their ability to project the future utility of guys like Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Papelbon, Bard, Delcarmen, etc., I'd say they know their stuff.

 

3) When you look at actual metrics like WARP (which I know you could care less about, but which others do care about) it is quite probable that someone like Buchholz will be more valuable to this team over 6 years than Halladay would be for 1.4. Bard probably projects to be more valuable over 6 years than Halladay over 1.4 too. Who else would you have added to get Halladay? 6 years of Reddick?

 

When the team is good, I am happy. When they are not good, I am not happy. Is there a problem with that?

 

The problem is that you don't do a very good job of evaluating when your team is good.

 

How you could say this team isn't "good" is beyond me. They have the 3rd best record in the AL, would have the second best record in the NL, and have the 4th best record in MLB.

 

They have the best run differential (+94) in the league, and the second best in all of baseball.

 

They are 6th in MLB in runs allowed (1st in the AL)

They are 4th in MLB in runs scored (4th in the AL)

 

You are the grass-is-greener type, but I don't know whose grass you are looking at. In terms of having a "good" team and being happy, you should be happy.

 

I care about this team being good now too. I watch all the games, I care. But they are good, and they will continue to be good because people who care about the present and the future run this team.

 

Hence the addition of someone like Victor Martinez. To you, a non deal. Something not even worthy of excitement. To me, a #3 batter, a switch hitting catcher, 3 time all star who can help this team in many, many ways.

[BSN07]

 

 

The problem is that you don't do a very good job of evaluating when your team is good.

 

How you could say this team isn't "good" is beyond me. They have the 3rd best record in the AL, would have the second best record in the NL, and have the 4th best record in MLB.

 

Because the Yanks are in 1st place... Ahhhh