Johan Santana

[He Hate Me]

I suppose things are just pretty quiet at this point.

 

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071206/SPORTS/712060385/1007

 

Basically says what many of us are thinking: this is a win-win, particularly if the Yankees are involved.

 

The Sox are like a dog defending a big pile of food; they really can control the discussions. I think they can match or surpass any package of 'specs the Yankees offer, and because of that they can push it just high enough for it to be a net loss for the Yankees even if the Twins accept. Gaining Santana would be huge for the Yankees, but losing Melky, Kennedy and Hughes would be great for the Sox in 6 years, when Hughes is, what, 27?

 

Losing Hughes would hurt. I don't think it would hurt as much or at all to lose Melky or Kennedy IMO. There will always be guys available in the draft who fall because of potential contract issues, the Yanks will always be there to pick them up.

[BSN07]

Beckett Won't Ask For Restructured Deal

Remember when Josh Beckett signed his three-year, $30MM extension on July 16th of 2006? At the time of the signing, Beckett's Boston career consisted of 114 innings of a 5.12 ERA. Many considered the extension questionable.

 

A year and a half later, Beckett's extension is a huge bargain. He could easily get the same amount over two seasons. There had been some concern that the Red Sox might trade for Johan Santana and pay him upward of $20MM per year, perturbing Beckett.

 

Rob Bradford was able to contact the gruff Beckett last night, and his salary doesn't seem to be a concern. Beckett knows plenty of pitchers had worse years in 2007 and made more money (Mike Mussina, for example). He'll get paid in line with his work starting with the 2010 season.

[BSN07]

I'm to the point on this trade to where I don't care wherehe goes, just trade him already LOL

 

If we get him great, if not, I think our team is good enough to contend next yr with a tweak here and there...

[Jayhawk Bill]

Yep I set myself up for that one.

 

They're all talented players and if we lose them it does hurt the organization as a whole more than the on field team. None of the three pieces in my deal contributed in the first half of the season when the Sox built the 11 game lead in the division.

 

Yes short is an issue but I personally am not convinced that we saw the best of Lugo and even if we haven't it will be difficult to move him if he doesn't reestablish himself next year.

 

Cam, all good points, especially the bit regarding Lugo, but also the others I truncated in this response. Losing Lester, Ellsbury and Lowrie costs the team talent, but it doesn't adversely affect the 2008 on-the-field team relative to 2007 overmuch if Crisp is retained and if Santana is acquired to fill the vacant pitching rotation slot.

[ACL BoSox]

so it looks like santana is staying a twin... for now

 

minnesota's front office can't make a decision

[TheKilo]

NASHVILLE -- Theo is leaving the building ... without a deal for Johan Santana.

 

After today's Rule 5 draft, Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein said there would continue to be an open dialogue with the Twins, but that he was leaving the winter meetings.

 

The Globe.

[BoSox21]

so be it...

 

The Sox seem to do well when they hold a hard line on decisions rather than blow away the Twins with an offer they can't refuse

[das11209]

Earlier I gave the analogy of the Dye trade on last year's deadline but this one just carried on for too long for nothing - it will be interesting if the twins can extend him now.

[Cocos Disciples]

I'm to the point on this trade to where I don't care wherehe goes, just trade him already LOL

 

If we get him great, if not, I think our team is good enough to contend next yr with a tweak here and there...

 

We're better than good enough to contend. At this point, we have a good a shot as anyone in MLB to win the WS. Getting Santana would make us the clear favorites.

[cam780]

I still think the Sox's deal is the best on the table. If the Twins want to deal before the season, he'll be coming here. If not, well then we get to do this thing all over again next season minus the would you trade player x thing.

 

My guess is next year, the loser of the Santana sweepstakes gets Sabathia and we get all kinds of fun drama next year.

[Thumper]

I still think the Sox's deal is the best on the table. If the Twins want to deal before the season, he'll be coming here. If not, well then we get to do this thing all over again next season minus the would you trade player x thing.

 

My guess is next year, the loser of the Santana sweepstakes gets Sabathia and we get all kinds of fun drama next year.

 

Okay so let's assume the Sox and Twins make a deal. Who's the better trade off? Lester or Ellsbury?

 

Personally, despite being a Jacoby fanboy... I'd have to trade him off and save the pitching. Pitching is how you win, and with Wakefield being the new Father Time and Schilling eating (or so he says differently in his new contract), we could use pitching. Thus get rid of Ellsbury, who I'll miss, and save Lester so this way the rotation for future years would be Beckett, Matsuzaka, Santana, Lester, (Open Slot for Future Pitcher). Crisp is good in the field, and I'm sure his hitting can improve if he just keeps consistant.

[schillingouttheks]

Okay so let's assume the Sox and Twins make a deal. Who's the better trade off? Lester or Ellsbury?

 

Personally, despite being a Jacoby fanboy... I'd have to trade him off and save the pitching. Pitching is how you win, and with Wakefield being the new Father Time and Schilling eating (or so he says differently in his new contract), we could use pitching. Thus get rid of Ellsbury, who I'll miss, and save Lester so this way the rotation for future years would be Beckett, Matsuzaka, Santana, Lester, (Open Slot for Future Pitcher). Crisp is good in the field, and I'm sure his hitting can improve if he just keeps consistant.

 

Or you just replace Lester with Santana....you forgot about Buchholz.

 

Santana

Beckett

Matsuzaka

Schilling

Wakefield/Buchholz

[cam780]

Okay so let's assume the Sox and Twins make a deal. Who's the better trade off? Lester or Ellsbury?

 

Personally, despite being a Jacoby fanboy... I'd have to trade him off and save the pitching. Pitching is how you win, and with Wakefield being the new Father Time and Schilling eating (or so he says differently in his new contract), we could use pitching. Thus get rid of Ellsbury, who I'll miss, and save Lester so this way the rotation for future years would be Beckett, Matsuzaka, Santana, Lester, (Open Slot for Future Pitcher). Crisp is good in the field, and I'm sure his hitting can improve if he just keeps consistant.

 

For both teams its the Lester deal. For the Sox, if you're acquiring Santana, Lester is your fifth starter and I'd hazard the guess that he would probably be the best fifth starter in the league, but even if the guys coming up behind him don't wind up being as good as he is they should fill that fifth starter role effectively.

 

What Jacoby has shown thus far is very impressive and he fits a major need in the lineup and allows guys like Pedroia and Youk to fit into roles they're better suited for also I'd say the risk that the prospects in the outfield behind Jacoby aren't as good as he is is greater if only because his potential replacements (Place, Kalish, Reddick, Koewen) are all considerably farther off than Lester's potential replacements (Masterson, Hagadone and Bowden) all of which could have an impact by the end of the 2009 season.

 

The package that the Twins would get back in return addresses most of their immediate needs with players that have a better chance of being solid to above average performers than not. Lowrie in particular is intriguing because he fits the profile of a Red Sox player perfectly but as an organizatin he plays a position that the Sox are deep in with potentially high level prospects.

 

That being said - Theo has done such a great job building the farm system that he can make a strong offer - even if it included both and it wouldn't be emptying the system. I would even say that he could swing a Detroit type deal and still have plenty of talent left over to feed the major league team in the coming years.

[Thumper]

Or you just replace Lester with Santana....you forgot about Buchholz.

 

Santana

Beckett

Matsuzaka

Schilling

Wakefield/Buchholz

 

Knew I was forgetting someone.

 

So add him in, and it'll look like this for the future:

Santana

Beckett

Matsuzaka

Buchholz

Lester

 

That's assuming Ellsbury is traded off. The one thing however, is having Lester as a lefty, should he start s***ing the bed, a whole bunch of righties will be pulling the ball over the left field wall at Fenway. Santana may be a lefty too but he's more dominate and has the sick ass changeup. So to reduce that risk, Lester would be the better choice to trade. I'm thinking 1-2 years ahead from now, because I know Wakefiled will be done, Schilling IS done after the 2008 season, so either we trade Ellsbury to better secure the rotation for the near future, but then start looking for another bat, who would most likely be Crisp getting his job back. Trade off Lester, we'd better start looking for another pitcher then too. At this point in time I still say the better route to go, SHOULD we take Santana, would be to give up Ellsbury, though keeping Lester doesn't make me all too hapy either.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I'm thinking 1-2 years ahead from now' date=' because I know Wakefiled will be done...[/quote']

 

Tim Wakefield is a pure knuckleball pitcher. He could easily have 3-5 years left, although even Hoyt Wilhelm hit a wall in his late 40's.

 

Given his exceptionally reasonable contract and his ability to pitch in relief as well as starting, I'll bet that Tim Wakefield is on the Opening Day roster for the 2011 Red Sox. YMMV.

 

[/tangent]

 

A potential 2010 starting rotation:

 

Beckett

Matsuzaka

Buchholz

Lester

Wakefield

 

Santana would be a strong addition, as best we now know. He isn't essential.

[Thumper]

He isn't essential.

 

I'll drink to that. It's not like if we don't get him we're cluster f***ed for the season. It just would be really nice to have him in the rotation.

 

As far as Wakefield goes, as great a knuckleballer as he is, I give him 2 years max.

[cam780]

Tim Wakefield is a pure knuckleball pitcher. He could easily have 3-5 years left, although even Hoyt Wilhelm hit a wall in his late 40's.

 

Given his exceptionally reasonable contract and his ability to pitch in relief as well as starting, I'll bet that Tim Wakefield is on the Opening Day roster for the 2011 Red Sox. YMMV.

 

[/tangent]

 

A potential 2010 starting rotation:

 

Beckett

Matsuzaka

Buchholz

Lester

Wakefield

 

Santana would be a strong addition, as best we now know. He isn't essential.

 

I don't know. Wakefield has started to breakdown late in seasons. Unless there's a deal involving our young pitching I don't see him here past 2 years. When Schilling retires, Buchholz will take his place but both Masterson and Bowden should be ready by '09. I think Wakes future depends on what they envision Masterson's role as but barring a move involving our pitching, I don't see a spot for him past 09. I think they'll keep on exercising his option until he decides to retire but I can envision him moving back into the pen as an innings eater. I think Lester will do fine at Fenway. He just needs to locate better period.

[Jayhawk Bill]

An interesting trivia question: who won more games in 2007, Johan Santana or Tim Wakefield?

 

Look, we know that Santana's the better pitcher of the two. I'm just sayin' that Tim Wakefield isn't necessarily entering his last--or next-to-last--season next spring.

[Thumper]

An interesting trivia question: who won more games in 2007, Johan Santana or Tim Wakefield?

 

Look, we know that Santana's the better pitcher of the two. I'm just sayin' that Tim Wakefield isn't necessarily entering his last--or next-to-last--season next spring.

 

Then ask yourself who had the lower ERA, BB and more K's? That and if you're just gonna comapre W-L record, look at Schilling from last year, 15-7. This year he got hurt and when 9-8, despite he never fails us in the postseason, I'm comparing him to Wakefield since they are both in the same boat age wise and injury prone wise.

[Mr Crunchy]

wake does his job and is very useful in that role

175-200ip 4.5 era and stretches of invincibility as well as misery

we missed him badly in 05 and his absense last year effects the rotation roles

for short money hes a bargain

[example1]

wake does his job and is very useful in that role

175-200ip 4.5 era and stretches of invincibility as well as misery

we missed him badly in 05 and his absense last year effects the rotation roles

for short money hes a bargain

 

He is a bargain in some sense, but he isn't essential to this team. He will eventually step down and, while missed for his consistency and leadership, his spot will be replaceable.

[das11209]

Just Hank being Hank.

Asked Thursday whether the Yankees would be willing to re-open trade talks for Johan Santana, Hank Steinbrenner said: "You never close the door completely."

 

"The reason for my deadline is I didn't want to get caught up in the bidding circus at the winter meetings," Steinbrenner said. There's still plenty of time for the Santana situation to play out more or less like the Alex Rodriguez situation did

[das11209]

The Boston Herald reports that "it remains a near certainty" that Johan Santana "will be dealt, most likely to the Yankees or the Red Sox."

 

The newspaper speculates that the Mets are "a distant third right now" and suggests that a Santana trade could come "later this month or early in the new year." With Angels general manager Tony Reagins saying Thursday that he's not in the market for starting pitching and the Dodgers' interest in Santana unclear, it's starting to look like a three-team race.

[BudLight]

There are stories this morning (and posted in other topics here) that the Yanks are trying to free up some salary by trading Matsui or Mussina. Very preliminary right now, but the stated reason the Yanks didn't pull the trigger on the Santana deal was because of costs after Pettite decided to return in 08.

[rician blast]

Just Hank being Hank.

 

duh.

 

everyone knows they are not out of it, he fooled no one.

[soxfan17881]

Yes. Beckett, in the midst of a s***** season, decided to accept the Red Sox's offer at reasonable money at 3/30 with a 4th year as a club option. He took the guaranteed money even though he knew the risks involved (ie outperforming that salary level, which he did this season).

 

Now why, if the Sox were to acquire Santana (who is a better pitcher than Josh Beckett), and he makes more money than Josh Beckett, why would they have to restructure his deal for fear of as you say, "pissing him off"? He assumed the risk of signing a deal for less money because of the guaranteed years.

 

First, this isn't my theory, it belongs to Gammons.

 

When I heard Gammons, I took it not in terms of Beckett asking to restructure. I was thinking about the idea that if the Sox sink into a 5 year $130 million deal with Santana, there almost surely wouldn't be room for two $100 million dollar pitchers. Are we then assuming that the Sox would be willing to already exclude the possibility of resigning Beckett for the money he will most likely deserve, once the current contract ends?

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes. Beckett, in the midst of a s***** season, decided to accept the Red Sox's offer at reasonable money at 3/30 with a 4th year as a club option. He took the guaranteed money even though he knew the risks involved (ie outperforming that salary level, which he did this season).

 

Now why, if the Sox were to acquire Santana (who is a better pitcher than Josh Beckett), and he makes more money than Josh Beckett, why would they have to restructure his deal for fear of as you say, "pissing him off"? He assumed the risk of signing a deal for less money because of the guaranteed years.

 

so players who sign bad contracts dont lobby to get better ones?

[Mr Crunchy]

how does david ortiz sleep at night knowing that jd drew makes more money than he does?

he sleeps cause he has a pillow stuffed with c*notes and another 2M per doesnt matter at this point

[YAZMAN]

how does david ortiz sleep at night knowing that jd drew makes more money than he does?

he sleeps cause he has a pillow stuffed with c*notes and another 2M per doesnt matter at this point

 

Good point.

 

BTW, how's TMW?

[Mr Crunchy]

he sucks mark

left a great job in worcester for a decent job here in town then he got axed after 6 months,today is his last day so im waiting by the phone in case he needs bail

he is shall i say,a disgruntled employee at this hour

the 1 thing this guy does right is work but even the bio tech industry has its ups and downs i guess

i was over his house last night sipping a rather disappointing scotch while watching the football game

if he sobers up long enough i will send your regards.