Johan Santana

[yankeessuck013]

Dammit Dammit Dammit I do NOT want to see Ellsbury gone. Lester is probably at a high as far as his trade value is concerned and I don't see him being a #2 starter, or a #3 even down the line. Further, with Santana in the mix where does that leave Lester?

 

Beck

Santana

Dice-K

Schill

Bucholz

Lester

Wakefield

 

Meanwhile Ellsbury makes out lineup SO much more dangerous. Our 2-6 hitters become greater weapons with this guy, and he isn't like Coco, you can't just throw right to him- he frustrates pitchers and cranks doubles like crazy. he is much more dangerous on the basepaths than his predecessor and takes pitchers out of the at-bat so our 2-6 can take advantage.

 

I love Santana, but Coco is not my guy in Center and this also leaves us with lots of young pitching with nowhere to put it, Yeah, Yeah, you can never have enough..i know.

 

I'd much rather see them add another prospect or upgrade a prospect in the Lester deal.

 

Yes, we are spolied as Sox fans right now, i know. I've never worn a sox number on my back in my life and I was ready to go for Ellsbury's...

 

we don't have a choice if we want santana. if we did we would of traded coco, tavarez, and cora.

[Paradisecity]

we don't have a choice if we want santana. if we did we would of traded coco' date=' tavarez, and cora.[/quote']

 

well, they do have a choice. The sox could offer lester and upgrade the other prospects. Hell they could trade their compensation pick from Gagne.

[ksushi]

His top BP PECOTA comp was Todd Helton...Stan Musial was better than either Helton or, especially, Carter, but Carter's hitting style seems similar to Musial's.

 

Yeah, I know he has some impressive comps (Ortiz, and Helton is his number one comp with a pretty high score I believe) , and I've just learned about PECOTA about a couple years ago, so the jury is out on it for me because I've yet to see many players whom i follow in the minor leagues get a chance to perform at the level of their comps.

 

I think PECOTA should be taken somewhat lightly for now, but definitely goes to show that you should keep an open mind about players in the minor leagues. I wouldn't let a guys PECOTA comps get in the way of a trade or something substantial.

 

The most telling things IMO about Chris Carters future as a MLer is that he is fat and old for his level. Not impressed.

[yankeessuck013]

well' date=' they do have a choice. The sox could offer lester and upgrade the other prospects. Hell they could trade their compensation pick from Gagne.[/quote']

 

Idk, we're talking about the best pitcher in the game. The twins view ellsbury as a better player than hughes, and if they want him they'll get him.

[ksushi]

You can't trade picks in baseball.

[YAZMAN]

a - 15 fraa?

unreal

and now i wonder how after 40 f***ing years of watching baseball i have survived without knowing what FRAA is....but consider...

this is a guy who didnt know what vorp was till a year ago.

thank christ i found this place.

my life was a circle jerk and lacking definition till then.

 

And yet nobody gave my argument about passing on Payrod during the fall sweepstakes any merit. Afterall, he does have the highest FAAK in the majors.

 

In fact, he may be the biggest FAAKing d'bag in the history of the game.

[jacksonianmarch]

In terms of the Twins, i am surprised they arent interested in a guy like Carter. Advanced approach to hitting, open DH slot, a dire need for offense. It would be interesting.

 

I said before and I will say it again, the sox need to offer a lot to get Santana. None of this Lester, Crisp and s*** package. Ellsbury + is what its gonna take. I wouldnt be surprised if after all the speculation, the deal includes Ellsbury, Masterson, Lester and Lowrie. It would make sense too. The Twins need a CFer, what better way to fill that need with a rising star in Ellsbury. They need IF, why not get a guy like Lowrie who looks to be a solid player. Then fill the rotation hole with lester and the SU hole with Masterson. Thats the kind of deal I'd expect by the end of all this.

 

And for the sox, the only real spot it hurts is Ellsbury, but Crisp is still there. Lester's spot becomes obsolete. Lowrie is blocked either way, and the sox pen is deep.

[He Hate Me]

In terms of the Twins, i am surprised they arent interested in a guy like Carter. Advanced approach to hitting, open DH slot, a dire need for offense. It would be interesting.

 

I said before and I will say it again, the sox need to offer a lot to get Santana. None of this Lester, Crisp and s*** package. Ellsbury + is what its gonna take. I wouldnt be surprised if after all the speculation, the deal includes Ellsbury, Masterson, Lester and Lowrie. It would make sense too. The Twins need a CFer, what better way to fill that need with a rising star in Ellsbury. They need IF, why not get a guy like Lowrie who looks to be a solid player. Then fill the rotation hole with lester and the SU hole with Masterson. Thats the kind of deal I'd expect by the end of all this.

 

nods i agree. a package of lester + ellsbury + masterson and lowrie is a very very fair package for Santana IMO.

[example1]

nods i agree. a package of lester + ellsbury + masterson and lowrie is a very very fair package for Santana IMO.

 

Its a TOO fair package for Santana.

 

I would hate to see Ellsbury go in ANY package (not because I love Ellsbury as much as I don't think Crisp will put up similar defensive numbers next year, which was really the ONLY thing that made him valuable). But, to get Santana I guess you gotta give up something.

 

It seems too risky to me, honestly. The Sox are in a good position currently and stand to get into a better one. If they trade Ellsbury and Santana is injured or just comes back to earth, then they will be the losing team in this trade.

[das11209]

nods i agree. a package of lester + ellsbury + masterson and lowrie is a very very fair package for Santana IMO.

 

May be from Yankee point of view - I still think it must be either Lester or Ellsbury. I can see Lester being packaged with Ellsbury and all the other kids - but twins should include Mauer or Nathan also.

[jacksonianmarch]

It might be, it might not be, but that is what the Twins are waiting for, I can guarantee it. An article I read previously had a very good quote. The Twins wont be blown away by pretty good prospects. Guys like Lowrie, Masterson are for right now, pretty good prospects. And while everybody is on the Ellsbury love fest train, he still has a serious detriment in the power department. And you know how I feel about Lester. That being said, Ellsbury would be the crown jewel in the deal with lester softening the blow and Lowrie/Masterson filling roles. No 5 tool players, no future aces.

 

In the yankees offer, you have a future ace and then another couple of pretty good players.

 

In the Mets offer, you have one 5-tool player but not both. The only way the sox get this trade done emergently, is if they use the Lester package and sub in Buchholz. I dont see that happening, hence the twins will wait. The sox offer right now isnt all that overwhelming. And it shouldnt be from the sox for right now. The Yankees seem out of it and the Mets are holding firm as well. Either way, all 3 offers IMO are so close that the Twins should and will wait for one team to blink. And when you have the impatient nature that the NY fans and FO's have, I wouldnt be surprised if it is one of the NY teams. Right now, the sox are playing it cool, but the only thing they are leading is in speculation. If the sox wanted to get a deal done RIGHT NOW, without moving Buchholz, it will take both Lester AND Ellsbury plus. But thing is, the season is still 4.5 months away, so there is time.

[TheKilo]

Its a TOO fair package for Santana.

 

I would hate to see Ellsbury go in ANY package (not because I love Ellsbury as much as I don't think Crisp will put up similar defensive numbers next year, which was really the ONLY thing that made him valuable). But, to get Santana I guess you gotta give up something.

 

It seems too risky to me, honestly. The Sox are in a good position currently and stand to get into a better one. If they trade Ellsbury and Santana is injured or just comes back to earth, then they will be the losing team in this trade.

 

Explain this one to me. Barring injury, why don't you have the confidence in Crisp's ability to defend as well as he did last season?

[Paradisecity]

Well, If I score a 100 on a test I have a hard time believing that I will score as high the next time.

 

 

He set an astronomically high bar this season- and I'm surprised he didn't win a gold glvoe for it. I'm anti-coco- but I thought he earned it.

[redsoxrules]

Well, If I score a 100 on a test I have a hard time believing that I will score as high the next time.

 

 

He set an astronomically high bar this season- and I'm surprised he didn't win a gold glvoe for it. I'm anti-coco- but I thought he earned it.

 

so if you score 100 on a test , you dont think you can do it again ?

 

if crisp is healthy there's no doubt that he will put up similar defensive numbers

[Paradisecity]

so if you score 100 on a test , you dont think you can do it again ?

 

if crisp is healthy there's no doubt that he will put up similar defensive numbers

 

 

There's probably a better analogy than this it was just the one that came to mind the quickest.

[BoSox21]

saying Coco will never repeat what he did this past season is saying he was lucky. I don't see what's lucky about having the range he does, his ability to read a flyball and his willingness to dive for a ball. He is what he is and that is an outstanding defensive centerfielder. His arm strength is crap and for that reason alone is why I don't think he deserved the gold glove but that's another discussion

[cam780]

Explain this one to me. Barring injury' date=' why don't you have the confidence in Crisp's ability to defend as well as he did last season?[/quote']

 

Ah. It looks like Coco's dad is back.

 

Seriously, I think both offers are fair. Personally, if push came to shove than I'd pull the trigger on Ellsbury and Lester. Losing Ellsbury would hurt but not so bad that it should hold up a deal for the best pitcher in baseball because there are free agents and other guys in your system that can fit that need.

 

I think Theo is handling this right. As of now, the Yankees have offered their final package and the he knows that as it stands the Sox have the more favorable option(s) or the Twins would've taken the Yanks deal a long time ago. He also knows the Mets don't have the prospects and the Angels don't have the stomach for the contract so unless something changes he doesn't have to negotiate against himself to get this deal done. If the Yanks up the offer again, I think all bets are off.

 

As far as Crisp goes, I don't think there are any absolutes and that goes for everyone - look at Wakefield, Manny, Okajima, Andruw Jones, Carlos Pena etc. I would say there's a good chance that Crisp comes back and plays spectacular defense again but I have to say that some of the plays he made were almost superhuman and I don't think he gets all of them next year but that being said I also don't think you can rule out an offensive resurgence either. The only real question is has the trade talk worn the relationship out much like the Nomar situation.

[redsoxrules]

Dammit Dammit Dammit I do NOT want to see Ellsbury gone. Lester is probably at a high as far as his trade value is concerned and I don't see him being a #2 starter, or a #3 even down the line. Further, with Santana in the mix where does that leave Lester?

 

Beck

Santana

Dice-K

Schill

Bucholz

Lester

Wakefield

 

Meanwhile Ellsbury makes out lineup SO much more dangerous. Our 2-6 hitters become greater weapons with this guy, and he isn't like Coco, you can't just throw right to him- he frustrates pitchers and cranks doubles like crazy. he is much more dangerous on the basepaths than his predecessor and takes pitchers out of the at-bat so our 2-6 can take advantage.

 

I love Santana, but Coco is not my guy in Center and this also leaves us with lots of young pitching with nowhere to put it, Yeah, Yeah, you can never have enough..i know.

 

I'd much rather see them add another prospect or upgrade a prospect in the Lester deal.

 

Yes, we are spolied as Sox fans right now, i know. I've never worn a sox number on my back in my life and I was ready to go for Ellsbury's...

 

 

I'd like to keep ellsbury myself BUT this team would be much better with santanna as SP and crisp at center than having ellsbury at center and no santanna . like you said , you can never have to much pitching

[das11209]

Coco Crisp sucks - a season full of coco the monkey? Jones is off the market - we will probably have to go for Rowand or something...

 

Edit - I am shocked some of the love Coco gets - dude could not even get a bunt down in the playoffs. We might as well put up a 8 man line-up. The only way he helps the offense is by pinch running. He is not a base stealing threat - because he will never get on base.

[jacksonianmarch]

You take a look at the situation.

 

The Red Sox have a team constructed right now that could win a WS again. It really wouldnt even take too much luck for it to happen. They have an ace. They have a Japanese kid who certainly could be very good for a very long time. They have another future ace in Buchholz who isnt even in the trade discussion. You have a lineup that will again be top 5 in all of baseball in runs scored. You have possibly the best bullpen in the game. And, you have one of the better farm systems. Right now, if you could add the best pitcher in all of baseball to your staff without subtracting even one player from the roster that you started the season with, then why the hell not do it? What does it matter if Ellsbury and Lester are included. And then throw in 2 rookies. What does it matter? You add Santana and you have a 1-2 duo of epic proportions. If DiceK and Buchholz live up to expectations, you will have a 1-4 that could be aces on any other team, and all will be in their 20s. And you can do this without subtracting 1 player from your team that started your championship run. Not 1.

 

The Yankees OTOH, would need to acquire Santana just to get to where the sox are right now. The Yankees lack the shutdown ace, the sox have one. But we have 2 guys who certainly could be aces. What if you deal the wrong one? Then you are stuck repeating the mistakes of old and treading water against the sox, who no matter how the dealings end, will still have the better bullpen. This is why the yankees need caution.

 

But this is also why the sox should make this happen. If they want Ellsbury...so be it. Lester too...Add him to the pile. How about Lowrie and Masterson? Go ahead. None of those guys hurt you right now, and none will hurt you even 1/10th the amount that Santana will help. Allowing Santana to go to the yankees makes this a rivalry again, and most likely tips the scales in the yankees favor. Getting Santana makes this akin to the reverse of the late 90s rivalry. The yankees would be doormats to the sox, on their way to continued, long lasting, epic success. The only thing that current yankee fans can hold over you is the dynasty plug. 4 in 5 yrs! The sox have had 2 in 4yrs, but with Santana could get to 3,4,5, hell who knows how many. This is a dynasty building move without having to serious hurt the foundation of your team. This is why Theo has the duty to overpay so long as he doesnt have to deal away someone like Papelbon. This is why he should do it. Because without Santana, they still have a solid chance of repeating. With Santana, it will be like the 07 Pats, slaughtering teams on their way to the inevitable.

[yankeessuck013]

idk if anyone saw this...courtesy of peter gammons

 

"It appears that unless the Yankees change their minds and jump back in with Ian Kennedy as well as Phil Hughes that the Red Sox remain the likely destination for Santana. Mets GM Omar Minaya has worked hard to come up with a package acceptable to Smith, but thus far hasn't been able to make it work. As Joe Christensen has reported in the Minneapolis Star Tribune, the Twins seem inclined to take the Jacoby Ellsbury deal, with infielder Jed Lowrie and pitcher Justin Masterson. Minnesota wants another prime younger prospect like outfielder Ryan Kalish, but the Red Sox have held to their offers."

[jacksonianmarch]

I continue to think that the perceived "offers" out there are nothing but bunk. The Twins know what they want and the fact that Santana is still a Twin shows you that they need something more.

 

But if this is true and f***ing Ryan Kalish is holding up this deal, then Theo should be replaced for a day so the deal could get done.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have a question for you guys....

 

If you got Santana and you won 2 more titles during his run....

 

yet you dealt Lester, Ellsbury, Kalish, and Lowrie and all 4 became All Stars, would you be mad?

[a700hitter]

No, but you would be really mad.

[ORS]

I continue to think that the perceived "offers" out there are nothing but bunk. The Twins know what they want and the fact that Santana is still a Twin shows you that they need something more.

 

But if this is true and f***ing Ryan Kalish is holding up this deal, then Theo should be replaced for a day so the deal could get done.

How is that any different than the Yankees holding on to Kennedy and Jackson. Kennedy, according to all the scouts you love to tout in regards to Masterson's future as a reliever, will be nothing special. Jackson is just one year closer than Kalish right now, that's it. Same set of tools, just a year older.

[cam780]

You take a look at the situation.

 

The Red Sox have a team constructed right now that could win a WS again. It really wouldnt even take too much luck for it to happen. They have an ace. They have a Japanese kid who certainly could be very good for a very long time. They have another future ace in Buchholz who isnt even in the trade discussion. You have a lineup that will again be top 5 in all of baseball in runs scored. You have possibly the best bullpen in the game. And, you have one of the better farm systems. Right now, if you could add the best pitcher in all of baseball to your staff without subtracting even one player from the roster that you started the season with, then why the hell not do it? What does it matter if Ellsbury and Lester are included. And then throw in 2 rookies. What does it matter? You add Santana and you have a 1-2 duo of epic proportions. If DiceK and Buchholz live up to expectations, you will have a 1-4 that could be aces on any other team, and all will be in their 20s. And you can do this without subtracting 1 player from your team that started your championship run. Not 1.

 

The Yankees OTOH, would need to acquire Santana just to get to where the sox are right now. The Yankees lack the shutdown ace, the sox have one. But we have 2 guys who certainly could be aces. What if you deal the wrong one? Then you are stuck repeating the mistakes of old and treading water against the sox, who no matter how the dealings end, will still have the better bullpen. This is why the yankees need caution.

 

But this is also why the sox should make this happen. If they want Ellsbury...so be it. Lester too...Add him to the pile. How about Lowrie and Masterson? Go ahead. None of those guys hurt you right now, and none will hurt you even 1/10th the amount that Santana will help. Allowing Santana to go to the yankees makes this a rivalry again, and most likely tips the scales in the yankees favor. Getting Santana makes this akin to the reverse of the late 90s rivalry. The yankees would be doormats to the sox, on their way to continued, long lasting, epic success. The only thing that current yankee fans can hold over you is the dynasty plug. 4 in 5 yrs! The sox have had 2 in 4yrs, but with Santana could get to 3,4,5, hell who knows how many. This is a dynasty building move without having to serious hurt the foundation of your team. This is why Theo has the duty to overpay so long as he doesnt have to deal away someone like Papelbon. This is why he should do it. Because without Santana, they still have a solid chance of repeating. With Santana, it will be like the 07 Pats, slaughtering teams on their way to the inevitable.

 

I cant believe I'm saying this but I agree with Jacko except the whole overpay thing. I actually think the deal that you propose isn't overpaying. Although the inclusion of Kalish would give me pause if we're including both Ellsbury and Lester if only because Kalish is that guy that would replace Ellsbury as the dynamic leadoff hitter. If we're talking about a just Lester deal then I include him.

[cam780]

I have a question for you guys....

 

If you got Santana and you won 2 more titles during his run....

 

yet you dealt Lester, Ellsbury, Kalish, and Lowrie and all 4 became All Stars, would you be mad?

 

Nope.

[BoSox21]

I have a question for you guys....

 

If you got Santana and you won 2 more titles during his run....

 

yet you dealt Lester, Ellsbury, Kalish, and Lowrie and all 4 became All Stars, would you be mad?

 

is the goal to win titles or produce as many all-stars as possible?

[cam780]

Coco Crisp sucks - a season full of coco the monkey? Jones is off the market - we will probably have to go for Rowand or something...

 

Edit - I am shocked some of the love Coco gets - dude could not even get a bunt down in the playoffs. We might as well put up a 8 man line-up. The only way he helps the offense is by pinch running. He is not a base stealing threat - because he will never get on base.

 

Or not. The issue with Rowand is he wants a five year deal and he's coming off of a career year. I don't see the Sox adding 40 million dollars of payroll over the next 5 if you include Santana while having to resign Beckett, Youk, Varitek and Paps not to mention Manny's options and eventual replacement. Next year, I would almost guarantee Crisp is with the Sox if Ellsbury is dealt and then they'd probably take a look at the situation next year.

[schillingouttheks]

I have a question for you guys....

 

If you got Santana and you won 2 more titles during his run....

 

yet you dealt Lester, Ellsbury, Kalish, and Lowrie and all 4 became All Stars, would you be mad?

 

Absolutely not.